PROVE US WRONG: The Great Controversy Is NOT Biblical | Open Mic #5

And we are live thank you all so much for being here it is good to be back with you all this evening I am particularly excited because we’re doing something I haven’t done in a while the floor will be open to any Seventh Day Adventist in the world to change our mind regarding the great controversy we’ve done some of these in the past but we haven’t done such on this topic more specifically though the great controversy theme or world view the unique sth Adventist Paradigm that accompanies 7th Day adventism and cannot be separated from it as we’re about to

See you’ll notice I said hour that’s because my friend Mike curn will be with us tonight to add to the discussion Mike is a former Seventh Adventist of 43 years and was a lead Elder of an SDA Church upon his departure but the thesis of the night just so it’s clear can any Seventh Day Adventist show us that the Great controver Y worldview is supported strictly from the Bible can any Seventh Adventist show us that the great controversy worldview is supported strictly from the Bible this is where the rubber meets the road folks there is no getting around this there is no

Divorcing this from the system of adventism itself they are a package deal the SDA Church tells us that everything they believe comes strictly from the Bible okay so we are eager to have this explained to us I also want to remind you all real quick that if you like what we’re doing here and you’d like to see more of that meaning the equipping of more Christians to reach more 7th Day Adventists please consider partnering with us it is the support of our partners and YouTube members that makes this effort uh have the impact that it does and it really is

A team effort and I’m super grateful for all of you guys if this is something you are interested in the link is in the description box down below but with that said Mike how’s it going bro man it’s much better now that I’m here here with you oh well that’s the that’s the like uh the Christiane answer no it’s going good here it’s a little cold I mean we’re supposed to get like four inches of snow here yeah we’re supposed to get eight tonight well so are you trying to double me I don’t understand you always trying no I guess I think God is because God’s

The one that controls that not me so I’m just the messenger don’t shoot the messenger now folks the link to join tonight is pinned in the live chat but please please please only join if you are a sth day Adventist this is not an open Q&A we’re talking about something very specific tonight so please only join if you are in SDA the floor will be open shortly but first I need to present the specifics about the objections like I normally do at these because as we will see in one of our sources a lot of people including Seventh Day Adventist hear great controversy and they think of

Ellen White’s book while that is certainly a part of the whole it isn’t the Crux of the matter now I want to preface for the Adventist in the audience before citing any sources I am citing sources not because every Adventist in the world is responsible for the sources cited they demonstrate that we aren’t making stuff up and our objections are against actual claims made in official Source documentation not Fringe Joe Schmo private opinions of an SDA off in the corner somewhere so we are going to look at herb Douglas’s article in Ministry magazine on the

Subject titled what is the great controversy theme every time I cite this I inevitably get lots of Adventists they email us they comment and complain about Dr Douglas being an orthodox Adventist meaning he actually understood the system of teaching and its interconnectedness and they don’t like that so that means he stood by the by the book teaching he understood that you can’t peace meal together your own flavor of adventism and be consistent I understand there’s people out there that do that but those people try and dismiss this as herb Douglas’s private opinion

But no all he is doing is putting skin on the bones of fundamental belief number eight and he is reiterating what the fundamental beliefs book puts forth which I have here so if you want to go that route tonight happy to go that route okay furthermore what I’m about to read was approved and proofread by a body of people and then formally printed in an official organ of the organization not a private blog paper or something like that okay so let’s get into it here for those that do not not known he writes quote some may think of the great controversy between Christ and Satan the

Fifth book in the conflict of the AG series Others May think of Jeremiah’s announcement that the Lord has a controversy with the Nations Jeremiah 25:31 a theme that HL Hastings in 1858 emphasized in his book The Great controversy between God and man its origin progress and end the Great controversy theme is more than an historical survey of the battle between Christ and Satan as traced through the events of secular and Biblical history more than an overview of the cosmic conflict as unfolded in certain biblical passages such as Revelation 12 more than

An awareness of that struggle within our own lives for seventh day Adventists the great controversy theme is the core concept that brings coherence to all biblical subjects every philosophical or theological system Builds on a central governing theme or Paradigm its central theme becomes that system’s core truth and determines all of that system’s principles and policies Stephen Hawking the remarkable Cambridge physicist wrote in his 1988 book A Brief History of Time that should scientists discover The long-sought Theory of Everything to explain the varying mechanisms of the

Universe we should know the mind of God seventh day Adventists have been given that a perspective which provides a theory of everything it introduces us to the mind of God we didn’t Discover it it was given to us we call it the great controversy theme so pause this article is titled what is the great controversy theme the answer the answer is then given almost immediately it isn’t simply Ellen White’s book nor the simple awareness of the battle between good and evil recently I’ve had more and more Adventists try and act like that’s all the great controversy is it’s just a

Recognition of Good and Evil we’ve seen Dr Jud Lake for example give this exact response to this platform but as Douglas notes no that isn’t what the real breadth of the great controversy is it is a theme a paradigm a worldview that supposedly brings coherence to all of the Bible it’s the equivalent of what stepen Hawking referred to as the God particle only in the theological realm it introduces us supposedly to the mind of God and 7th Day Adventist he says did not discover this it was given to them okay he continues how we understand this Core

Theme directly affects how we grasp the intent of the biblical writers when they used words such as righteousness salvation gospel Etc the GCT helps us to work our way through centuy of theological confusion over the meaning of such realities as justification sanctification atonement obedience and works without the great controversy theme all would remain divided over such subjects as the importance of the Old Testament Sanctuary service and the New Testament view of Christ as our high priest mediator the meaning of faith and Grace the place of obedience in relation

To legalism why Jesus came the first time why he came the way he did and when he will return close quote so this theme which wasn’t discovered but was given to the SDA Church informs how one understands virtually all biblical terminology whether it’s atonement Faith gospel salvation Etc it supposedly provides the answers that are supposed to clear up centuries of confusion and without it all would remain divided over various theological matters so the unique possession of this worldview by the SDA church is supposed to support their Remnant Doctrine it’s

Supposed to be part of why they’re completely United in ways that Babylon isn’t AKA Roman Catholics Protestants Etc but we also see him state that it informs for SDA theology why Jesus came the first time why he came the way he did and when he will return which means it informs what the cross was supposedly about what Christ’s grave was about what his Incarnation was about and so on further further evidencing that this cannot be divorced from the SDA system of theology he also adds quote the Adventist eschatological framework sets us apart from every other

Denomination that speaks of the end of the world because it is governed by the GCT the distinctly administ view is formed by a mutually supportive cluster of ideas including conditional immortality 7th Day sabari inis a premillennial historicist eschatology acceptance of the gift of Prophecy in the ministry of Ellen White teachings about the Priestly work of Christ in the Heavenly sanctuary and a prepared people by his grace this mutually supportive cluster of ideas that marks Adventist eschatology exists today because the great controversy theme informs all

Areas of Adventist thought when the controversy is over the purpose of the Gospel will be seen as the Vindication of the wisdom power and love of God close quote so according to this what sets adventism apart from everyone else Mike the Great controversy theme the GC the GCT that’s what it is there you go and Douglas points out that their doctrines are a mutually supportive set of clusters they all support one another and they’re all needed to remain intact this is why I always say people that balk and scoff at Douglas do not understand the necessity of the system

He understood you can’t just peac meal it the whole thing collapses if you do that he just listed off a bunch of things that you have to affirm that support one another which includes by the way Ellen White but then he gives the central Crux of the matter he says when the controversy is over it will be seen that the purpose of the Gospel a loaded term in their system will be the Vindication of God which begs the question what does God allegedly need Vindicated from now we will look at that in a moment and where that’s coming from but Mike are Douglas’s words clear to you or

Am I missing something it it’s crystal clear to me I I think he actually is a great writer I think that he’s made his point very clear and I wish avenus would probably know this more absolutely exactly what they believe they’re supposed to believe anyways and he’s not the only one that says this folks I I mean I just I cite this Source constantly because it’s just so clear it’s just so direct it’s so forthright there’s no games there’s no beating around the bush he owned it I wish he were still alive I’d have him on here but I’m not sure how if it wasn’t

Discovered but given to the SDA Church one can turn around and say it comes from the Bible especially given what he says about how it’s the lens one must understand the Bible through but maybe an Adventist can change our minds on that but lastly here five key claims okay now this is not exhaustive by any means but the last thing before we bring somebody on if they show up God being on trial and needing Vindicated there are four primary details or claims from the story line that in uh that inform and are Downstream of this Central claim which is number five that God is on trial and

Vindicating himself and Mike and I would love to see biblical support for them since the SDA Church tells us that everything adventism teaches comes strictly from the Bible okay the first is that prior to the Earth’s creation Jesus was exalted and given command that devolved onto him from God the Father the second is that Lucifer became jealous of this exaltation began attacking the Ten Commandments becoming Satan the accuser claiming that God is not fair and his law needs changed the third is that mankind was created in the controversy already

Underway as a part of God’s vindicating himself self before the universe the fourth is that prior to incarnating as a man Jesus incarnated as an angel taking on an Angelic nature to seek and save Angels vindicating the character of God on the plane of angels and all of these flow Downstream from what Douglas said the goal of the Gospel is the Vindication of God which is that fifth Point Satan’s Z accusations allegedly put God on trial and now he’s vindicating himself and his law before all watching intelligences all these other beings on other worlds

And the angels Etc which is what the ultimate purpose of the Gospel is he said okay without these fundamental claims the great controversy theme falls apart there are numerous others we could look at but this is just a sampling of core claims that influence the Seventh Day Adventist Church’s handling and application of the Bible and lastly I want to remind seven VST out there what Ellen White instructed them to do quote then Brethren use wisely the precious light that God has given presenting it to the people in the meekness and gentleness of Christ meet

The Prejudice of the people with an invitation such as Philip gave Nathaniel come and see say if seventh Adventists have the truth and can prove it from the Oracles of God you do not wish to be found fighting against God we are to be bodies of light proclaiming Christ and his love to the people and presenting all our doctrines in their true relation to this important theme we shall have to meet people as full of hatred to our work as were the priests and rulers in the days of Christ to his work it is our duty however to diffuse light in every direction and lay

Out in clear lines what the sinner must do in order to obtain eternal life close quote so we would love for any Adventist in the world to heed this uh divinely inspired advice step up to the plate and demonstrate for us that the pre-earth origin story of the great controversy which influences in forms all of SDA theology is biblical because the organization insists that everything they teach and believe comes strictly from the Bible so with that said brother Mike we have our first person Joseph you are here sir you’re going to want to unmute your

Mic hey excellent how’s it going doing well how are you good so sorry I I just want to make sure I’m responding to the correct thing so which element of the great controversy is it that you specifically um because obviously you said it’s not the fact that there’s the war you know between God and Satan generically because all Christians believe that all Christians believe that we’re talking about specifically the prear origin story all this information that is so I’ll explain it to you this way Christians believe in Revelation from God through scripture and we

Believe that that lays out an overview of Redemptive history the Adventist Church would agree but they would also say they have an extra set of information that other Christians don’t have prior to what is accounted for in Genesis they have this pre-earth origin storyline with who knows how long that period of time was I’ve seen SDA covenant theology charts and it’s just question marks because they say it’s unknown but all of that prear information then in forms later on in Redemptive history aka the Bible so the entire prear origin story because for

Example the Adventist Church teaches Jesus went to the cross and the cross was ultimately about vindicating the law and God’s character from Satan’s accusations so we would love to see where that is in the Bible that prior to the Earth’s creation Satan began attacking the Ten Commandments claiming that God’s law is not fair and Angels need no law over them that sort of stuff yeah so I mean the two passages that come to mind um I I know in Isaiah 14 where it talks about I’ll bring it up yeah okay any particular translation or do you not care I it doesn’t matter to

Me okay I’m assuming you want to go to the the king of TI yeah okay just a second getting it up

Here what verse in particular um let me see sorry essentially I mean essentially starts at verse 12 if you’re I believe verse 12 um okay wait there oh what is it that you still say in your heart um sorry I’m not actually in the version that I’m usually oh sorry I’m in the Isaiah 14 okay I’ve got it up on screen here okay yeah so how you have fallen from Heaven um right so that’s Lucifer right you know saying right that he’s claiming he’s wanting the attributes of God for himself um and so that’s that’s part of where we see that there’s this backstory um but but real quick where

Are all of those details though all this tells you is that Lucifer which again we’re having to do some sort of of deduction here to some degree which is fine but where does it tell you any of that backstory it just tells you that Lucifer desired something where are you getting from this text that all this other information um which other information sorry well you’re saying that uh Lucifer desired the authority of God we would we would agree that’s that’s there in the text but how does that support that what that looked like was because Jesus was

Exalted to be made equal with God the Father Lucifer became jealous began attacking the 10 Commandments leading to God having to hold a council meeting to figure out this problem and his response to it and while that was happening Lucifer was going around to all the Angels which eventually LED which there’s a bunch of details in between there but that eventually led to war breaking out in heaven and Lucifer being defeated in that first battle and cast down where where’s all those details from this text oh well yeah no they wouldn’t all be in those texts I mean I

Don’t think I don’t think we can rest the entire you know great contr Doctrine just on this text um there’s also Revelation 12 right which talks about the war in heaven um and then you know when you when you take various scriptures right that talk about right the law of God right the sin being a transgression of the law right I mean you’ve got to take all of scripture and let scripture interpret itself I was just yeah but not go ahead sorry so I was we the thing I was drawing from um Isaiah 14 is just the fact right where we see the backstory right we also see

Part of the backstory alluded to in job the early the opening chapter of job right where the sons of God come to represent themselves um in the courts of heaven and Satan actually comes as a representative from Earth um and so then that’s you know part of that backstory right and actually the whole book of job I think is is a good um Exemplar of the great controversy in some ways because right there we see right Satan comes he makes his charge against God or he makes his charge right he says you know um oh no actually God I don’t want to get this wrong but I

Believe in opening chapter of job God actually says have you seen my servant job right that there’s none like them he’s upright in the Nations he honors me and then Satan says yeah but it’s only because you know you’ve blessed him and you’ve prospered him right and so and then we see right you know in job’s life right God says all right Satan I’ll let you to you know harm his family harm his you know his goods and all that and yet all through it job remains faithful right and so I think that’s another good example right in scripture of this great

Controversy theme so can I can I say something real quick yeah a little bit of a rebuttal so and and I’ll get a little bit of a nitpicky on here so first of all um it’s really important when we’re dialoguing with scripture that we keep the context uh in the in the Forefront so first of all I would have quals with even stating that Lucifer exists because and I’m I don’t want to get off on a rail too much miles but here in verse 12 where it says oh Day star if you do any dialogue or any interaction with the actual original language Lucifer doesn’t exist in

Scripture that is a transliteration of the Latin ball gate that’s correct so and and again not that I I I think I understand what people mean when they say oh it’s Lucifer um because of the way it got its name through H and how that’s translated but you would have to also argue that this particular text is actually talking about a Satan figure or an adversary and really what’s going on here is it’s about Babylon it’s about the king of Babylon I mean it’s drawing on some sort of a conflict but I don’t think Isaiah actually is here you’d have to convince

Me that this text is specifically referring and I’m going to be very specific to our topic to a adversary that was in heaven prior to Earth’s creation you would have to insert that into the text uh in in order to get that under in other words in order for Isaiah to be stating that when he’s proclaiming this does that make sense yeah yeah I see what you’re saying so but in verse 12 right where it says how you are fallen from Heaven oh Day star son of dawn right I don’t see how that could be just the the king of Babylon well so couple of things first

Of all you have to look at the original language what does it mean for something to fall and is it fall from like is this inferring so I’m asking questions here is Isaiah speaking of a supernatural being in heaven that has fallen from outside of our atmosphere or some other area onto Earth or is it some other is he inferring some sort of other language and I’m not trying to solve this problem I’m just saying what I’ve what I’ve realized is that the Adventist great controversy theme informs the way Adventists read this text so you’ll come to this text and

You’ll go see Lucifer fell from heaven that’s not what Isaiah is saying that’s what you’re interpreting it to say through your lens as and and I say your as a 43 you know year avist third generation AVST I was right there with you okay it actually bothered me when I found out that Lucifer wasn’t even in the Bible the first time I found that out um so that’s my my big point would be when we come to the text we have to be careful that we’re not we’re not using our filter and I think that’s what Herbert Douglas is saying in that article is that Adventists filter things

Through this because that’s the way everything is cohesive inside the Adventist view if you don’t use the great controversy theme you can’t get what Adventists believe unless you have it is that a fair assessment mil would you agree with that or am I off targeting yeah well and that’s what I was kind of getting at with you got to do some deduction with the text and I was actually just looking at the uh the very opening page uh page 113 of the fundamental beliefs book which gives the exposition and our friend Joseph here basically just reiterated what’s stated

Under the origin of the controversy using the kings of Ty and Babylon as figurative descriptions for Lucifer scripture illuminates how this Cosmic controversy began Lucifer son of the morning the anointed covering cherub resided in the presence of God Isaiah 14:12 and Ezekiel 28:14 scripture says you were the Seal of perfection full of wisdom and perfect in Beauty you were perfect in your ways from the day you were created till iniquity was found in you Ezekiel 2812 through now Joseph we could even just grant that this is talking about Satan and there’s still problems because all

This tells you is even if we ported Satan into here I was Ascend to Heaven above the Stars I will set my Throne on high I will sit on the Mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north I will Ascend above the heights of the clouds I will make myself like the most high that all that is saying is that he had a desire for something that doesn’t tell us that this was in response to Jesus being exalted to be made equal with the father or any of these other details Christians believe what you you know the the generals here some do some don’t some believe that Lucifer is

Referring to Satan others like Mike said um do not so those that do they’re recognizing this but they’re not getting out of this all these other details that that are having to be attached to that even with job and Revelation Revelation 12 is not talking about a war prior to the creation of the Earth can we go to re 12 sure and that much is obvious just by the surrounding context it’s it’s clearly um I mean human beings exist at the point of the the war that’s in Focus here so it says now War arose in heaven Michael and his angels fighting against

The dragon and the dragon and his angels fought back but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven and the Great Dragon was thrown down that ancient serpent who is called the devil and Satan the deceiver of the whole world who was thrown down to the Earth and his angels were thrown down with him and I heard a loud voice in heaven saying now the Salvation the power and the kingdom for our God and authority of his Christ have come for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down who accuses them day and night before God human beings already

Exist at this point that this is not referring to a War prior to the Earth being created yet Ellen White and the SDA Church try and apply this text in a multifaceted way they try and apply it to well there’s going to be War later that it could refer to but also it refers to this pre-earth war that Ellen White talked about well usually miles if you go up usually what I have heard and Joseph you can correct me if if I’m misunderstanding this go all the way up to verse uh three and four of chapter 12 because usually what I hear is that this is in reference to Satan getting kicked

Out of heaven prior to so his his tail swept the third of the Angels correct what I want to point out in this text is if you read all of it instead of just taking that verse out what does it say in verse if you read verses four and five what is that his tail swept down a third of the stars of the heaven cast them to the earth and the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth so that there so that when she bore her child he might devour it she gave birth a male child one who is to rule so if you’re going to keep it in context when is when does the text say

This more than likely did happen what is the context of the timing of the third of the Angels getting kicked out the Ascension some that’s the argument I I I the lane that I I am in because this is clearly talking about Jesus and Jesus being caught up and and the Ascension and that sort of thing and him going up and presenting himself before the Father which had ramifications yeah it it certainly in my opinion it certainly ties to the male child who is to Rule now whether or not a person takes that as the church or as you know if if the woman is the church

Or if the woman is Mary or if the woman is like there’s a lot of ways to parse that out but it most certainly does not have to do with prear origin at least not in the context of what Revelation is discussing Joseph your thoughts well so I I’ll just uh turn around for the question for you then so you’re saying um that when the devil the devil is cast out right with a third of the Angels that’s not happening before the creation of the world right like in other words when when do you believe the sin problem began well it depends uh in what context

You’re referring now the the reality is is the Bible is silent on a lot of this information we don’t have the creation story of the angels we don’t have a lot of information so I try to not speak Beyond where the Bible goes the avenus system seems to be fine with well these details don’t contradict the Bible so it’s okay that we bring them along because they help clarify that’s typically what I hear from Advent scholarship Etc around Ellen White she doesn’t add anything to the Bible she just adds details that aren’t there that help us better understand what is in the

Bible so I try to not speak on such things um because the Bible doesn’t necessarily tell us it does tell us that Satan was a murderer from the beginning so clearly he had he he sinned clearly and it tells us that sin entered the world not through Satan through Adam Romans 5 so that’s as far as I go yeah well I mean I and I I would agree with what you’re saying that when when Adam sinned that’s when the human race that’s when the human race rebelled right like um the like Lucifer or sorry Satan to use the language you guys more comfortable with Satan right he wasn’t

Able to sin on behalf of mankind because he wasn’t you know human he was an angel so um yeah I mean I guess like I said I I I just saw this stream until I hopped on I don’t have exactly all the text I would just say strongest arguments the things that I was lean to obviously I do think Isaiah 14 points to something but then I think um when we go to job particularly that I think that’s a good shows us kind of a behind the scenes right of the controversy um and you know if there’s someone else who wanted to hop on I appreciate you guys giving me the time and by the way I got one just

One last question for you if you don’t mind for sure um when do you think job when do you think the timeline of job happened oh I don’t know exactly I I do I believe the book was written by Moses if I’m not mistaken well let me clarify sorry I mean I mean like I mean like in time when when do you think do you think the story of Job happened prior to Earth’s creation no I I I do not believe that it happened PRI prior to Earth creation so if the war here in Revelation is referring to a pre-earth war that took place and Satan was banished then why in

The story of job is he back in Heaven oh well I mean it could could we actually go to job could we go to job one like you want to go to job 18 um yeah where it says well again I don’t want to say what it says let’s read it first no you’re good and what once we get into this I’d love to add something that I find pretty interesting with with job okay what verse would you like Joseph okay so let me sorry um where it says that he C where it says that he came to present himself therefore starting so verse okay can I read can we read verse five and then

Yeah go ahead can you see it on screen you can read yeah so um we’ll just five star okay and in the days of the Feast of under course job would send and um maybe not I guess just verse six okay uh now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and S uh Satan also came among them then the Lord said to Satan from where have you come Satan answered the Lord and said from going to and fro on the earth and from walking up and down on it um and the Lord said to Satan okay so there in verse seven right when Satan answers I came from the earth so

Obviously this is after he’d been cast down after he’d been cast out because he’s on the earth um I guess that’s what point to do you know what Ellen White had to say about Satan’s banishment from Heaven I don’t know the exact wording no okay well I won’t hold you we don’t have to necessarily go into that I’m not going to hold you accountable to that um I was just curious uh if what what your thoughts were on on all that so Mike you said you had something you wanted to chime in about well two things and I don’t want to derail us but with relation to job first of all job is

Probably the Book of Job is probably the oldest book first of all correct um most scholars believe that it’s probably written prior to um Genesis not that again has too much precedence to what we’re talking about but it is a very very old book and um the other thing is is if you understand the original language and I’m not a linguistic U scholar okay but if you look at the if you can go to the Hebrew for Satan real quick okay you want to go to the inner linear just yeah for for verse six where it says Satan and it’ll be the same for all satans I’m saying that

Because that’s the way the Hebrew word um is used but Satan it’s very it’s very important to understand that in Hebrew it’s different than okay and I’m I’m trying to understand in the way you have it set up yeah see how it says H saton yep okay the ha is is an article in yep it’s right there in Hebrew yep but it doesn’t get translated into the English text why because if you did in English it would say the Satan okay it wouldn’t have a capital because Capital this is not a proper noun in in the Hebrew grammar this is a common noun and it should be translated

More like an adversary yep if you were to properly translate the phrase It’s an adversary it’s not the adversary it’s a adversary or an adversary so I would actually have contention linguistically personally to attach I actually have a problem with attaching a capital S even though I understand why the translators do it it translates too much to us as English speaking Christian readers because it makes the statement that this is one specific specific individual and it’s the one that carries the Pitchfork it’s the devil okay y linguistically it isn’t necessarily in fact I give you a

Couple of academic articles and books that believe that this is more than likely someone that’s in the courts of Heaven that are in favor they’re not necessarily evil but they are called an accuser because they’re accusing job and God is saying no he’s good it’s not necessarily someone who’s evil it’s someone who’s a who’s making an accusation so just a couple of points on that that like and again to to mil’s point I always want to make sure that what I do believe or what I can say I believe is 100% backed by scripture not just filled in by some other extra

Biblical stuff good stuff man oh Joseph go ahead yeah I was just gonna say first all appreciate you guys letting me come on by the way I mean this all in a spirit of Charity um and like I said keep studying the Bible and um I got list um well I’ll just let you go maybe we’ll maybe we’ll talk again someday cool sounds good man anytime thanks for stopping by than okay appreciate it have a good one God bless all right well that was great folks thank you Joseph for coming on I always applaud um Adventists that are willing to do so my mind was not changed

Um I I really need to see more from these texts personally than just sort of conjecture or assertions because obviously I’m aware of all of these proof texts but you have to Trojan horse in a bunch of these details and the reason these details are necessary folks is because those details inform the core understanding of fundamental beliefs like I mentioned why did Jesus come to the Earth the Bible doesn’t teach why Jesus came to the Earth for this or it doesn’t teach the same thing about that as the Great controversy themed claims the Bible does not teach that Jesus

Christ came to Earth to silence Satan’s accusations to vindicate the law of God to all these watching intelligences to ultimately vindicate God’s character so that they can see okay Satan is a liar God can be trusted he is who he says he none of that is in the Bible yet these details like I said are an extra section of Redemptive history that they claim to supposedly have access to and that pre-b information influences the later revelation of the Bible I uh I want to know have you ever I’m trying to find in the article where he specifically says it you know

Where where Herbert Douglas says that it was given yeah okay how how was it given like does he do know clarify was is it given by Ellen White is it given by it it it has to be it has to there there’s no other place where is this because it’s it’s essentially Revelation it’s revelatory what other person who do they point to for any sort of divine revelation it’s coming from God so it has to be of divine origin and it wasn’t discovered it was given to them so this so This see this is my problem because when you talk to an ainst you’re gonna you’re G to hear them say oh no you

Don’t need Ellen White you can get it all from scripture that’s the common rebuttal but then here you you see someone who’s being honest from an academic standpoint and they no it was it was given to us well where right right in in Ellen White’s writings it’s all this extra Revelation that she supposedly gives them because all these topics that he mentions she informs all those even the the the topic of herself what is her role she had a lot to say about her own role so all the doctrines that he mentions when he talks about there at the beginning for Seventh

Adventist the great controversy theme is the core concept that brings coherence to all biblical subjects well he then goes on to explain some of those the great controversy theme helps us to work our way through centuries of theological confusion over the meaning of such realities as justification sanctification atonement obedience and works without the great controversy theme all would remain divided over subjects like the importance of the Old Testament Sanctuary service and the New Testament view of Christ as our high priest mediator aka the investigative judgment

The meaning of faith and Grace the place of obedience in relation to legalism why Jesus came the first time why he came the way he did and when he will return so it’s very clearly coming from Ellen White and that’s why you’re you’re stuck in a conundrum you can’t do the like I tried to do it for a long time the Adventist light thing U well ever heard anyone argue that it comes from somewhere else besides Ellen White no because I can hardly ever get people to even discuss this subject anytime I tend to go down this road I was on the phone uh I guess it’s been a few weeks now

With uh David asterik and we got on to talking about this stuff and he he he tried to tell me he tried to say no no no I don’t even reference Ellen White I just go with the Bible I said oh really interesting I said well would you mind showing me where the Bible says that prior to Earth’s creation Lucifer began attacking the Ten Commandments becoming Satan jealous of the exaltation of Jesus well he sidestepped that he he moved off of that he didn’t want to talk about that and so that’s typically what tends to happen in most of my experiences but

The people who I do talk to that really do understand this typically Advent a scholarship or or something in someone in you know more on that side of the spectrum no they recognize that this stuff is coming from Ellen White and they just try to use the defense that I mentioned earlier they try the whole well she doesn’t contradict the Bible none of this stuff contradicts the Bible it just illuminates and adds details it enhances the storyline to better help us understand the Bible Mike this is the same thing I hear from Mormons out on the street when I do Mormon or Street

Evangelism is that the Book of Mormon does that exact thing it doesn’t contradict the Bible it just helps us better understand the truth of the Bible because it’s another Testament of Jesus Christ okay so so let me just let me just play along for a second let let’s assume for the sake of argument that it doesn’t that that it just illuminates why is it then that avist have such a hard time when we test this stuff to make sure it’s coherence well I think there’s a variety of answers you could give to that because there’s a spectrum you know not all Adventist the gentleman who was just

On here bless that guy he was super cordial super nice he was very honest um you know so you have I think the average Adventist is like that guy um just like the average Christian in any Christian Church you go into they’re not a theology nerd that they don’t you know they’re just they’re not so Miles well you’re just making a big deal about this why is it such a big deal well here’s why it’s a big deal because I’m speaking on this platform organizationally I’m speaking to the system I’m speaking to the the system of Darkness I’m not talking to all individual seventh day

Adventists in the sense that I’m saying all seventh day Adventists are culpable of some evil thing or or something like that and it matters because millions of people are being taken captive to this and that’s actually part of why it matters Mike this platform has redpilled I don’t know how many people on this reality that Holy Smokes wow I do have this worldview WOW Christians don’t believe this stuff that is important because they need to be woken up from it they’re T they’re being taken captive by this and they’re able to to be pointed to these proof texts like we just heard

And because they’re not a theology nerd or they’re not really necessarily you know really examining these things really hard they’re just kind of seeing that well it does say that there was war in heaven okay yeah it does say that Lucifer became jealous oh okay and then they hear Ellen White’s quotes and it’s like oh yeah it just does it does enhance what’s there but folks any of us could do that well sit down tonight and write a bunch of pre-earth stuff that none of it contradicts the Bible it’s all perfectly in harmony with the Bible but they’re details that aren’t found in

The Bible like when like when she says that Lucifer was pouting off in the corner because he was mad and he was plotting in his heart and his mind and he had a he had that big forehead well that’s the that’s at the beginning that he had a he had a he had a uh what’s the word she says somebody his brow rid I didn’t even know that that broad Angelic beings in heaven I didn’t know that they were human yeah oh you didn’t know they had foreheads yeah and ears and and nose yeah just news to me yeah but uh yeah it’s just like I don’t think the average

Person or even the average Seventh Day Adventist like herb even not you know recognizes at the beginning of this this paper some may think of the great controversy between Christ and Satan the fifth book in the conflict of the ages series but he says the great controversy theme is more than a historical survey of the battle between Christ and Satan as traced through the events of secular and Biblical history so because I don’t think the average SDA understands that they’re just being equipped with this worldview and they’re being indoctrinated with it and it’s

Unsuspecting I know that’s what it was for me I vividly remember the day I remember where I was I remember who I was talking to when it dawned on me and I had a light bulb moment where that switch never turned off where I realized wow the thing that’s made me different this whole time from Christians is I have a different world view than them they’re not looking around at the world and thinking all this stuff about oh this is Satan doing this over here and it’s ultimately about hating the law and he’s trying to attack God’s law now you know and get humans to side with him and

All this this sort of stuff Christians simply recognized that Satan is a foe he’s defeated he was defeated at the cross and it doesn’t go to all these other added details about Satan’s satanic majesty and these other sort of Blasphemous claims that he was next to Christ in Authority that he had a brow Ridge and that he was a the head of the choir um you know these sorts of things and and some of the things that I think have the most important implication in the avenus worldview that really do matter because some of the like okay if I get to heaven and I I’m wrong on like

The way this this devil person looks like okay no big deal like okay fine but when it comes to like the great controversy theme teaches that the law was intergral in not just human life but Angelic Supernatural life that it was it was precedent and in fact Angels live by the same law that supposedly was given at Mount Si for humans that same law is what makes Heaven tick and the Sabbath has a special Halo which means that all of the Angels also celebrate Sabbath and like this is this is what gets projected on because what what is the Vindication

Of God’s character why does he even need to be Vindicated like exactly it alls on this pre-earth origin that the law and all of this stuff is it’s Downstream to all of that yeah Barb thank you so much for the five membership gifts shout out to you thank you again so much for your support all right Mike we have our next 7th Day Adventist who wants to step up to the plate Ricky you are up Sir hello how are you I’m very well well how are you I’m very well thank you for asking miles I’ve been wanting to chat with you for a while and I saw that you had a question and answer so I thought

I’d hop on well it’s not a question and answer tonight my friend um I understand you may have just gotten on the focus tonight is the the open challenge of can any Seven Day Adventist show us that the Great controversy worldview is supported strictly from the Bible so that is the topic in Focus tonight and we would love to hear from you um your support for such yes miles uh when I was listening earlier I noticed that she had a few qu well a few points that you had brought up and I took a few notes I noticed um the caller before oh here we go yeah

Perfectly uh yeah I noticed the caller went ahead and attempted to try to answer some of the backstory I guess that was the original question about well the backstory about Good and Evil and is that biblical and the caller answered with job and um aaya so I’d love to move on to one of your next points if you’d like sure and again these are really just I only selected a few of them because I was trying to explain for the audience why these details are important they can’t just be like well the they’re kind of optional because it is these specific details and

Points that inform why the Seventh Adventist Church claims what they do for example about what the cross was about why did Jesus go to the cross and what was happening there that is informed for the Adventist system based on these pre-earth origin details that Christians do not affirm so that is why I brought these up as just some examples of these sort of core details from this storyline that because they must be believed in order to properly understand what the Bible is saying that would then lead me to ask can you please show me these then from the Bible yes of

Course um so I guess I’ll move on to number two Lucifer became jealous of the exaltation and began attacking the Ten Commandments and accusing God of not being fair okay well the first verse that comes to mind about that would be Ezekiel 28:15 okay so we just read that earlier from the just a second you said Ezekiel 28 yes because um yes of course because we just we just read that earlier from the uh the fundamental beliefs book oh wonderful so I guess we’re answering our own questions no you’re you’re good so let’s bring this up here we can look at

This again would you mind bringing up the King James version please okay let’s bring up the King James are you a textus receptus only guy no comment okay I’ll take that as a yes it’s a no okay all right um okay well the verse that I was referring to was in relationship to how from the day that essentially paraphrasing how from the day that well let’s read it since it’s up what what verse would you like to read uh Ezekiel 28:15 okay go ahead and read it let’s see uh thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created till iniquity was found in thee okay and

You think that this supports that prior to the Earth’s creation Lucifer became jealous of the exaltation of Jesus to be equal with God the father and then began attacking the Ten Commandments and saying that God is a liar and the law can’t be because if ye if ye violate the least of The Commandments ye violate them all and before the Ten Commandments the Commandment was iniquity where does any of that say Jesus was exalted prior to Earth’s creation Lucifer became jealous of this and then began attacking the Ten Commandments I think it’s self-explanatory that iniquity was the

Command iniquity was the Commandment that was broken and we’ve already we’ve already read that the evil one was cast down from heaven obviously because of sin and this was the iniquity and so the this answers question too from the perspective that obviously sin was found in the heart of the evil one and that’s why and that’s what separated him and cast him down from Heaven to Earth now as far as the other uh particular points we’re going to have to go on those individually if you’d like can I ask a clarifying question Ricky of course Michael um verse 15 who who is in the

Context of this chapter in Ezekiel who is the individual being referred to here thou was perfect who who who is the thou I I know that earlier you were discussing this person I don’t prefer to like harp on the evil one it says there in 14 the anointed cherub and you’ve discussed already whom that is well no hold on who so can we go up to verse 11 I always I really get uncomfortable reading one verse and I know that we’re not doing a big like study or anything but moreover the word of the Lord yahawah came unto me saying what’s the problem with 11 keep

Keep going saying what a son of man take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus and say unto him thus sayith the Lord God thou seest up the sum of full wisdom and perfect in Beauty so who’s the king of Tyrus he is the Royal of Tyrus what’s the question Mike well if you keep moving through the text everything that’s happening in 13 14 15 this is a lamentation against the king of Tyrus and do you believe that the king of Tyrus was an Eden well I believe that it is a it is a Ezekiel is using something common again this is getting into my understanding of what

Ezekiel’s talking about okay was he also uh encrusted with barrel and Onyx and Jasper and Sapphire and emerald and found perfect in his days so so most academic Scholars when they understand this when they interpret this okay and I’m talking about interpretation for a second okay because we’re getting into like how a person reads the text I understand that the Adventist view would read this as the devil I don’t think that’s fair I think that Ezekiel is using a common understanding everyone knew during that day and age about the the thing back in the garden of Neen like

Everyone knew that but this is a lamentation against a physical King and he’s using an analogy of what happened back in the Garden of Eden if you study the whole the whole text as a lament against the king of Tyre so yes there was a cherub back in the Garden of Eden I don’t disagree with that like we all know that we know we all kind of most the Cherub was covering the ark what you I guess we can move on okay well hold up hold up here hold up here even I’m gonna say the same thing we said to Joseph even if we grant that this is talking about Satan we’re doing

A lot even if we Grant this is about Satan can we talk about anything other than Satan can we talk about our savior perhaps I think number two is already Rick Ricky Ricky you Ricky you are the one that said you wanted to talk about two which has to do with Satan Adventists are the ones that are obsessed in love Satan first of all I don’t think that’s hold on Ricky Ricky Ricky Ricky Ricky okay if you’re going to talk over and try and run the show we will move on you need to calm down and just relax we’re just having a conversation my friend this I understand you know you I watched

A lot of my videos and I those are my stump speeches but we’re having a one-on-one conversation here I I don’t get that way when I’m just having like a one-on-one conversation just chill bro just chill we’re we’re just we’re just talking we’re just talking okay I’m gonna unmute you but let me finish because I let you finish and then Mike went I’m saying even if we grant that this is talking about Satan because that’s what you want to pull in there there’s nothing in here Ricky about Lucifer beginning to attack the Ten Commandments out of jealousy of Jesus

Being exalted jealousy that was hold on hold on okay that was not that was not demonstrated those details are being ported into this text they’re not being derived from the text that is classic isog Jesus so you haven’t demonstrated that well all I have to do is demonstrate iniquity and I demonstrate jealousy because no no no you don’t if ye transgress the least of the commands then ye transgress them all so that doesn’t have anything to do with Jesus being exalted Ricky that doesn’t have anything to do with Satan attacking the ten commands are you suggesting that

Jesus is not exalted Ricky the storyline claims that prior to Christ’s Incarnation we’re not talking about as a man yes of course as a man Christ ascended that’s as a man that’s not as Yahweh so do you affirm the hypothetic Union which the SDA Church claims to affirm that Christ is 100% man 100% God simultaneously and those two Natures exist in the one person and his Unity of divine and human Natures come at the point of that single person do you agree with that sorry I was a little bit confused by that word you said okay sorry I’ll say it again the

Adventist Church claims to uphold the hypostatic union which is the one that started with a with a Y and a what did you say th this this apparently I think Ricky you’re you’re probably on a a thing about Yahweh and you don’t want that to be said I’m sorry I you were talking to Okay Lord Lord Jesus Christ is the almighty Jesus Christ is the almighty do you affirm the hypothetic union um I’m sorry I’m not sure I understood that word that you said with the J could you say that again whom are you referring okay so you’re not a serious individual Ricky Ser individual

If you don’t want to be a serious individual because okay Ricky if you’re going to play games and try and waste time and troll we’re going to move along you know what I’m getting at you’re now trying to obfuscate away from the fact that the Bible does not teach that prior to Christ’s incarnation in heaven he was exalted to be made equal with God the father that Authority devolved onto him from the father that is what is in focus in point two on this chart don’t point to verses in the Bible that talk about Jesus post Incarnation as a man being exalted as

The new Adam the second Adam the one who fulfilled what the first Adam failed to do and inherits the promises that Adam would have fulfilled had he kept Covenant okay so we’re going to try this one more time yes of course if you play these games again we’re just going to move along because we’re trying to have a serious dialogue I’m being friendly with you we want to listen we want to have a genuine serious edifying discussion here so wonderful be be mature okay yes miles I am not trolling you I am in fact very serious about my savior and the answer is quite

Clear from the text from which I know and that is relating to the fact that our savior was before the foundation of the world let me ask you was our savior still the son of the almighty from before the foundation of the world um well it depends what you mean by those words I don’t I’m gon I’m trying to be charitable I don’t agree that you and I believe in the same the same God if you affirm the Adventist god um so I would even ask that that’s a bit frustrating because isn’t it blasphemy to speak on to speak on someone without cause or like have anger or uh what

Evidence did I give to you which causes you to believe what did I say which causes you to believe that I do not believe in the almighty God and his son well I said if for one but two the fact that you are an Adventist that’s obviously what I’m operating off of so me if I was an Adventist yeah Ricky well only Adventists are supposed to join tonight that’s in the link did you not listen did you in fact I read it however I attend the Seventh Day Advent message Kissa and as I acknowledge they call themselves corporately The Seventh Day Adventist Church okay well that’s not our fault

Ricky that’s your fault so why fa miles what’s my fault miles so okay goodbye Ricky Mercy not even a Seventh Day Adventist okay great we have somebody else who wants to come up though Mike so let’s move on can we clarify before they start can we clarify that they actually are seventh day athenus I don’t even know what he said he said some sectarian messenger of something something something it’s like why side note Miles this doesn’t surprise me and I’m not GNA release names when I say this but I have a friend that is a pastor I’ll just say it that way that’s an Adventist Pastor that

Behaves as a Messianic Jew yeah just confusing well it’s like I’m not going to saddle the Seventh Adventist Church with that guy I mean I’m not going to saddle the the corporate you know system and whatnot with any individual SDA but like my point is is like it’s irrelevant what you say then guy like what that’s not what this is for no we’re talking about seventh day adventism the the the corporate organization not these offshoot Splinter random whatever but okay we have by the way aren isn’t this supposed to unify can I just say that like didn’t Herbert Douglas say that

Like the great controvery theme is supposed to like unify all like and yeah we someone coming on that’s like not even well not just that but he freaked out about me like why’ you assume this Ricky I tried to ask you about if you affirm the hypothetic union to to learn to to make sure before saying anything and he was playing games so very clearly was not a serious individual but let’s bring our third person on here we don’t know what your name is because it’s too full um and your camera apparently doesn’t work and your mic is muted but whoever you are reveal

Yourself who are you hello uh yes my name is Ross hi Ross are you a Seventh Day Adventist yes okay part of the actual 7th Day Adventist Church not some offshoot thing like the previous guy yeah a okay are you a baptized member in the Seventh Adventist Church yes okay wonderful okay thank you um yeah the the floor is yours let’s hear uh whatever you’d like to present as the proof that the great controversy theme is strictly from the Bible okay I think the the question from the last person they they were trying to answer was about uh was about Lucifer I guess or

Something like that about U sort of the connection between Lucifer and Jesus prior to Jesus coming to Earth that is correct he was trying to focus on uh let me get it brought up here he was trying to focus on point number two of this chart which is the CLA became jealous of the exaltation and began attacking the Ten

Commandments Ross your mic is really broken up and you’re getting that really robotic Jitter sound so we’re not actually hearing you right now nope um you may have some bad service that may not be able to yeah we’re getting hard hard robotics on your end do you have your camera actually turned off or just something covering it

Okay um we’re going to remove you from the studio and we are going to Ross you are free to I’m gonna I’m going to remove you and you are free to join back in if you would like but we’re not able to get anything that he’s saying there that’s really unfortunate because I was really looking forward to whatever he was about to say so Ross please come back if you uh if you can sometimes I know that people resetting their it sound like he was on a mobile device sometimes closing out and coming back in resets all that stuff so yeah so so Miles I want to like to to

The last conversation and I think it pointed out while it was a little bit odd I think it does point out that one thing I want to be clear on is this world viiew and this is kind of what we’re hitting on the world viiew is a a lens that an individual sees life or interprets the text or seees your religious experience or your however you want to phrase it it’s the lens through which you see all things that’s what a world viw is just like the ancient near Eastern worldview they had a perspective in the Old Testament of how they interacted how they saw how God

Interacted with them that whole view so the the great controversy theme is that for Adventists and so a lot of times what I’m giving push back is isn’t because and I just want to I want to clarify this if my dad is watching I’m just going to say this because every time I respond it’s oh you just think you’re right oh you just want to disagree oh you you just think you know everything it’s that kind of a kind of a response and my ask is does the text say that or is that your interpretation of what the text is saying through your worldview yeah because that’s the key that’s the

Key question and it it almost kind of reminds me of just even like the Reformation it’s like the the core Crux of the Reformation we get caught up in all these sort of like solos scriptura and the Solas and ecclesiology and yeah but all of that stuff is Downstream the the real rub of the Reformation was a hermeneutically driven struggle that’s what it was over it was over hermeneutics which is why I’m constantly bringing up the uh historical grammatical method of Bible interpretation that Ted Wilson tells us is the only approved hermeneutic in the

SDA church yet they just can’t seem to utilize it for some reason how do we use that method to to approach the great controversy thing yeah no no kidding right it’s like comments like this I called out miles that he brings a Catholic to share their Doctrine and he said he doesn’t it’s like oh man talk about the the rewriting if this is the individual that I’m I’m recalling again we get lots of uh comments and sometimes Adventists make the same sorts of claims so maybe this wasn’t this individual but this is a funny Twist on how I’ve never I’ve never claimed that no Catholic has

Come on here and espoused any sort of Catholic Doctrine because guess what some things that Catholics believe isn’t entirely unique to Catholics my guess is this is uh having Steven Boyce on here when he talked about Mary being in focus in the Book of Revelation Well Steph Boyce is an Anglican Sam shimone has also said the same thing on this platform believe it or not that belief is not only Roman Catholic but uh instead of actually coming on here this individual is just commenting this sort of stuff in the chat which is why it’s like spare me all your silly rhetoric

Come on here and um defend what’s in Focus tonight and don’t try and do the whole like uh poisoning of the well or the ad homm or or these sorts of things which really solve nothing because believe it or not folks I bring people on here Mike you were on here to discuss with an Adventist when I was moderating and guess what folks Mike and I believe some stuff differently regarding the law oh man and guess what I’m going to Spill the Beans next week there’s going to be Adventist and a Roman Catholic on the platform to debate the nature of death and if death

Is asleep uh oh I bring people on here Mike who believe things differently than I do shocker yeah believe it or not folks I don’t just live in an echo chamber we shouldn’t just live in an echo chamber just because it’s like people on on X how they’ll put in their uh their bio or whatever retweets do not equal like my own beliefs or like you know retweets do not Auto automatically mean that just affirm everything this person says by virtue of what have you SD have gotten on this really B out of shape kick here with Sam shimone coming on the platform periodically and it’s

Just so funny it’s like Sam is my friend Sam disdains Protestant theology he absolutely hates reformed theology yet he knows I’m reformed that this silly notion that like I’m this like covert Roman Catholic and I just won’t tell people it’s like oh yeah I’m one of those I’m one of those Presbyterian Jesuits so but what you’re saying actually it’s funny because it actually stems from the great controversy theme yeah because that theme actually teaches Adventists to look at every single other denomination especially the Catholic denomination yeah okay as other than as

Evil as whatever so it doesn’t surprise me that that whatever that guy that you showed on here that comment it doesn’t surprise me that that Patricio Mo whoever that is um got PTSD with with Catholic response well another perfect example here and we’ve tal me and you have talked about this before Mike like I said the fact that Protestants here want Sam to help miles is funny oh believe it or not um yeah Roman Catholics actually you can learn something from them that’s the problem I have with adventism Mike like one of the major problems I have with adventism is

This hyper averse fear to like you can learn something from somebody who doesn’t look identical to you do even Roman Catholics uh yeah I’ve learned a lot from a ton of Roman Catholics I I’ve read John dun scotus uh Thomas aquinus the sort of medieval Scholastics um all the way back to even early patristics I don’t agree with everybody that I read but I also recognize that people I disagree with on even some pretty big matters they can still teach you things in other areas and when you shut yourself off from that sort of thing um you really limit yourself in terms of

How much you can actually learn and eat the meat spit out the bones well if if you want to way to never know what your blind spots are and your theology just surround yourself people that think just like you yep well our friend is back here so let’s see if it works this time Ross you are back all right that better work it is better it is better yes we can hear you now so is yours all right so I think we’re looking at about uh about Jesus having a controversy with well not Jesus with Satan having a with Jesus let’s see um being jealous of his exaltation okay yeah that prior to

Earth’s creation Lucifer became jealous of the exaltation of Jesus becoming Satan the adversary who began attacking the Ten Commandments and accusing God of not being fair okay um let’s see you can focus on something else if you want that’s just what the previous person was was focusing on but we’d love to hear any any biblical proof for any of the great controversy theme okay let’s see I’ll try to I’ll start with I guess maybe John one you know it just says in the beginning here I’ll bring I’ll bring it up okay do you have any translation you prefer uh the King James okay so you

Want to do John 1 one yeah okay yeah John chapter one get that yeah cool let’s get that brought up here okay um so it says in the beginning was the word and the Word was with God so where talking about the word is talking about Jesus but at the same time A lot of times the Bible you know it’s kind of repeating and large and it uses you know different kinds of symbols at times so Jesus is he was his character is reflection of the word and the word is his character meaning like everything we have in scripture telling us you know what God is like you know and and you

Know narrowing down his character The Ten Commandments that’s all encompassing who God is as a as an entity you know like the relationship that we’re supposed to have with God where we’re supposed to refence God basically in the first four in the first tablet with the first four Commandments and then the second tablet is how we’re supposed to deal with people that’s all reflection of God because his character is selfless everything God does he doesn’t think about himself he thinks about others and how it’s going to affect them unlike us where you know

Unfortunately human beings we’re flawed we’re messed up we know that but anyway uh it’s saying in the beginning was the word let me pause right there the word is Jesus the word is also the word of God it’s one and the same and the and the Word was with God and the Word was God so it’s kind of telling us right there that Jesus and the father were always together you know they’re separate beings they’re on the same page they like a family that’s kind of where people get confused I know I see atheist sometimes say well you know God saved himself to crucify himself and it’s just

Nonsense it’s you know and it also if we go I’m kind of jumping around but in general us make God in our image and you have the notion of Elohim which is plural for God even though um you know God is basically it’s a little confusing I know to to us human beings we probably understand it more in eternity but God is like a a collective it calls it the godhead I know in the in the old in the new test and that just means they’re working together they each kind of seem to have different jobs they do and it also you know in Jesus was talking to the disciples and they told him you know

Show us the father um Jesus at that point was saying you know have I not been with you so long that you don’t know you know that I and the father are one you know that you have seen the father because they’re the same in character though they have different jobs that they do Jesus is the high priest he’s our intercessor basically um and so anyway let me go back to John one and kind of I’m going off on the r know in the beginning was the word and the Word was of God and the Word was God so it’s let this know Jesus and the word of God are one that’s also including those

Commandments because you know God’s law is also who he is as well as his Justice and his Mercy it’s all wrapped up in the one there’s not one part of that that’s strong the other it’s all equal with God and then it says the same was in the beginning uh with God you know so let know Jesus With God all things were made by him just letting us know that Jesus was the one that created everything God God took a part of this the Holy Spirit as well but Jesus was the one sort of tasked to do this I guess they were all there like I think of it kind of like as

A workshop because I have a background of sort of you know being artist and making things I think of it like hey they it was a workshop and they all and you know hey you know you should do this Jesus and do that you know they probably talked about it beforehand but Jesus was the one putting everything together with his word and without him was not anything him was life and the life was the light of men and the light shineth in darkness and the Darkness comprehended it not and it’s letting you know here uh what do it say here next uh there was a man sent from God there’s

Going into John the uh Baptist and the same came as it went for witness to Bear witness to the light Jesus being the light but you also have references if we go back toh what was it there this is where it gets a little confusing to Isaiah 14 let’s jump over there I think yeah we were just there earlier okay what verse uh I said starting at the beginning okay let’s see uh let’s read it says for the Lord will have mercy on Jacob and will yet choose Israel and yet and set them in their own land okay okay and the people shall take them and bring them like jump down I

Guess hard bondage th shall take the Lord have broken supp we got to go back down further I think where you were talking about the king of tire yep that’s where we were earlier where was that at here okay let’s go back up a little bit seear okay well let’s see I guess 12 there really yeah it’s kind of I’m not totally familiar with is I should be more familiar with it but uh where it has 12 here What’s happen what happens I guess you could say with

The also make a reference to something else but let me go into this here I don’t want I want stick to the facts I come to see you got uh 12 it says how art thou fallen from Heaven oh Lucifer that is a direct reference to Satan the devil all those names some people say well there some people confused they think that there’s the same that’s the same person you know you want to call them be all they as that in the Bible all the same son of the morning okay so he was like a lesser light than Jesus but he was a he was like considered angel light Lucifer means light he was a

Lightbearer okay how art thou cut down to the ground which did US weaken the Nations okay which which nations talking about obviously Earth uh for thou H has said in thine heart I will Ascend into heaven I will exalt my throne above the stars of God so basically above all the other angels and followers of God I will sit upon the Mount of the congregation in the sze of the north okay where is that that’s what God says okay that’s what he’s saying there he’s saying that Lucifer wants to sit where God sits or who else sits where God sits the Father and Jesus they share

The throne so right there it’s telling you that he must be there’s a conflict there he’s jealous of them he hates them whatever because he loves himself more all this is the wording of somebody if you were if you if you were say this is Lucifer saying this instead of Isaiah writing this and it’s basically saying he’s saying you know uh how are there Fallen oh Lucifer Sunday morning for thou has said in thine heart this is what Lucifer is saying in his heart he’s saying I Lucifer will Ascend into heaven and I Lucifer will exalt my throne above the stars of God I’m going to be God and

I will sit up on the Mount of the congregation I’m going to sit where God sits God you move out of the way Lucifer’s in town I’m going to sit here and the sides of the north I will Ascend above the heights of the clouds clouds is a reference to Angels I will be like the most high he’s saying I’m gonna be God here yet Thou shalt be brought down to Hell so he’s let you know okay Lucifer this is what you think is going to happen but this is what is actually going to happen you’re going to be destroyed to the sides of the pit which is the grave which is death is what he’s saying

Which is what’s going to happen and to Lucifer in the end if we jump to Revelation you can read how Lucifer is going to be destroyed um they that set the see thee shall narly look upon thee and consider thee saying is this the man that made the Earth to tremble that did Shake kingdoms that made the world as a Wilderness and destroyed the cities thereof that open not the house of his prisoners you know open not the grave you know Jesus was the only one that escaped the grave and he took a few captains with him he when he did Escape praise the Lord all the kings of the

Nations each all of them lie in glory everyone in his own house but thou are cast out of the Grave like an abominal branch and as the REM rment of those that are slain let’s see uh oops I lost my page let’s go back if I can find Ross I’m gonna give you about 30 more seconds to to kind of wrap it up because there’s a lot that’s being said that we that we want to definitely address well I’ll kind of wrap it up basically you can see there that obviously it’s talking about Lucifer and his nature his selfishness how he wanted to be raised above God how you want to

Sit where God is and if you’re sitting where God is you’re also sitting where Jesus is they share the throne as far as you know everything that the father has he has given to Jesus so it’s letting you know right there that there is a conflict between Christ and Satan that Lucifer hates Jesus and what did he do when he when Jesus came down here he put Jesus on the cross through using the Roman armies to do it and you know using the hierarchy and the Jewish Community the the church Elders basically to falsely accuse Jesus so he could be destroyed

And you know that’s That’s what Satan does he’s a destroyer he’s a liar okay there’s a couple things I’m going to chime in here on and then I know Mike is going to want to talk about Isaiah here so couple things Ross I appreciate your candidness I appreciate your demeanor you’re you seem like a very nice guy um and so don’t take offense to any of the stuff that I’m saying I’m just kind of responding here to some of the stuff you said so let’s actually look back at what the point is that’s in contention yeah the claim is made that prior to the creation of the

Earth Lucifer became jealous of the exaltation of Jesus to be made equal with God the father he led to this led to him becoming Satan God’s adversary who began attacking the Ten Commandments and accusing God of not being fair we didn’t see any of that in what we read we didn’t see any of that in John 1:1 so for example John 1 the word that is used there for word is logos you know what logos means some people will say some people will say logos but it’s it’s logos so it’s not necessarily referring to the Bible there um I do understand that the word word can be referring to

The word of God but there specifically it’s referring to Christ the son and you were correct in that but nothing in John one for example tells us that Lucifer became jealous prior to the creation of the Earth because Jesus was exalted to be made equal with God the Father you also said that God the father Jesus and the Holy Spirit are separate beings um I would advise you against using that language if you’re claiming to be a trinitarian I know the SDA church or within adventism at least it it’s because Ellen White ultimately did um when you say that what you’re actually

Saying is they’re there are three different gods the word being denotes state or mode of existence so the the IAL God is not three distinct beings the the biblical God is one single being who exists in three persons so father son and spirit are the one God and this kind of gets to the core of the problem prior to Earth’s creation Jesus was never exalted to be made equal with God the father because Jesus ontologically already is equal with God the Father there is no exaltation to take place furthermore the doctrine of inseparable operations while

That phrasing is not found in the Bible it is just the summation phrase for what we do see in the Bible and according to the Bible the father son and the spirit do nothing separate of from one another so for example if we talk about the resurrection I can show you in scripture where it says the father resurrected Jesus Jesus resurrected himself and the Holy Spirit resurrected Jesus I can show you with creation that the father created the son created and the Holy Spirit created Etc they’re not distinct or separate beings but I think that kind of gives us some insight into how a

Person can can kind of believe some of these things that are being put forth and not see necessarily the problems but at its core nothing we read in Isaiah specifically says that Lucifer became jealous of Jesus being exalted to be made equal with God the father and then began attacking the Ten Commandments leading to a war in heaven we just got General details that Lucifer wanted to exalt himself now Mike is going to disagree or as he as he was saying previously and I’m tring to kind of stay neutral out of I’m just granting for the sake of the discussion that sure Satan

Can be in Focus but we didn’t get any of those details those details are having to be brought to the text to help interpret now there’s a couple things that I want to talk about regarding you said that the father and the son are on the throne Ross do you believe the holy spirit is on the throne um it doesn’t say that the Holy Spirit on the throne so I can’t I can’t comment on that okay do you have your Bible uh yes I did okay can you go to revelation 22 for me and we’re going to just do a little bit of a walkthrough here I know it’s kind of off the path here of the the

Great controversy theme but I I want you to to see this because you like I said you sound like a nice guy you sound like a guy that really does want to believe the truth that wants to believe the Bible Etc can you read uh I’m gonna bring it up on screen here can you read for us revelation 22 1-3 okay Revelation chapter 2 13 yes yep okay and he showed me a pure River of Life clear as Crystal proceeding out of the Throne of God and of the Lamb yeah so you have the Throne of God and the lamb there on the throne in the midst of the street of it and on the

Other side of the river was there the Tree of Life which beare 12 manner of fruits and yielded her fruit every month and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of Nations and there shall be no more curse but the Throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it and his servants Shall Serve him okay so who do you see here that’s on the throne I see the father and I see Jesus okay and what does it tell you in verse one proceeds from the throne uh proceeding out of the Throne of God and the lamb is the uh the River of Life okay so remember that River of

Life okay yep okay now if you can go to John well actually let’s stay let’s let’s do both of of Revelation um so you got that so it’s the river right that’s that’s flowing yes and just again I know you’ve already said this but I just want to see in the the mouth of multiple Witnesses obviously Revelation 3:21 to him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne even as I overcame and am set down with my father in his throne who’s talking here okay let me see here you’re on three and on verse 20 yeah Revelation 3:21 okay uh behold I stand at the door

And knock If any man hear my voice and open the door I will come in to him and will s with him and he with me to him that over cometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne even as I also overcame and am set down with the father in his throne he’d have an ear uh let him hear what the spirit saith onto the churches so who’s on the throne with the father uh Jesus okay cool I just like I said I want to see multiple amounts of witnesses okay so remember what revelation 22 told us what proceedes from the throne uh the River of Life yep all right now

Let’s go to John 7 okay can you read John 7 38-39 for me okay okay he that believeth in me as the scripture have said out of his belly shall flow rivers of Living Water but this spake he of the spirit which they that believe on him should receive for the Holy Ghost was not yet given because that Jesus was not yet glorified whoa whoa whoa Ross what did what did he what did we just what did we just read about the the the River of Life um that it flows from God there and who and who does Jesus tell us uh who’s going to flow out of his belly uh the

Spirit go here did you catch that Ross it’s because we’re reading the King James that you may have missed it so let me move over the nesb and the ESV get this really really well well while you’re pulling that up I think it’s also important to note that this is John yes Revelation was written by who John correct now I know the headings are not inspired Ross but notice the heading River of Living Water I’m going to read it here in the ESV on the last day of the feast the great day Jesus stood up and cried out if anyone thirst let him come to me and drink whoever believes in

Me as scripture has said out of his heart will flow rivers of Living Water now this he said about the spirit whom those who believed in him were to receive for as yet the spirit had not been given because Jesus was not yet glorified Ross revelation 22 doesn’t just have the father and the son on the spir on the throne did you catch this okay then the angel showed me the river of Water of Life bright as Crystal flowing from the Throne of God and of the Lamb okay this is the holy spirit proceeding from the throne this isn’t whether there’s a literal River or not I know the

Adventist system tends to want to read everything you know if it’s if it sounds like it’s literal we should take it literal and I get that you know to to some degree but this is talking about the spirit proceeding from the father and the son which is why at least in the west the western church the Eastern Church disagrees with this there’s a huge conflict there was a Schism over this it was that big of a deal but nevertheless the western church was correct sorry to my Eastern Orthodox friends and listeners and Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East

But the West got this correctly the it says in the ncing Creed that the spirit proceeds from the father and the son and this is why because the spirit is also on the throne here so um I I just wanted to to point that out for you um because I was curious when you said that the the father and the son were on the throne Ellen White when she talked about this she never even mentioned anything regarding the spirit in creation um at least early on that that came later on her Theology of the Holy Spirit started to develop later on in her life so early on in a lot of the groundwork

Of the stuff she she wasn’t really mentioned so I just wanted to point that out but then the the last thing I I do want to point out um because I do think it’s really important in the mic I’m G to let you go um you said that Satan put Jesus on the cross was that correct yes he helped him yeah yeah so can you go to Acts chapter 4 let’s

See okay okay just one second I’m trying to get it brought up

Here uh just a second sorry Ross I’m having an you here again it’s because of your comment about those Eastern people that you

Yeah Ross I’m sorry I told you the wrong chapter that’s why I’m a goofball go to Acts chapter two I’m sorrys two again got to got to the wrong section of Peter’s sermon there and I crossed some wires

Okay sorry now I’m trying to get this brought up after knocking stuff down

Here okay so we are gonna go down okay so Peter is in the middle of his let me get this brought over to here Peter is in the middle of his sermon on Pentecost okay and can you read for me 22 through 24 okay uh ye men of Israel he these words Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God among you by Miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you as ye yourselves also know 23 him being delivered by the determined counsel and for knowledge of God ye have taken and by Wicked hands have crucified and slain 24 whom God have raised up

Having Loos the Pains of death because it was not possible that he should be Holden of it all right so what does it tell you here specifically in verse three about the crucifixion it’s telling you that the council’s brought up you know Jesus to be crucified yeah and it well it says this Jesus delivered up so Peter is telling he’s he’s preaching to a Jewish audience of of people here the people that crucified Christ and he says men of Israel hear these words Jesus of Nazareth so they would have all been familiar who this individual was they had just recently killed him you know a

Man attested to you by God with Mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst as you yourselves know this Jesus delivered up according to the definite plan and forn knowledge of God you crucified and killed by the hands of Lawless men now we have to look to a parallel that foretold of this taking place so can you flip to Isaiah 53 all right let’s go there and I think while you’re going there I think your your point there miles is that verse 23 delivered up according to the definite plan and forn knowledge of God that is correct and

We’re going to see something in in in regards to that plan because there’s prophetic significance to that okay what’s Isaiah what the Isaiah yep Isaiah 53 okay and we’re going to start let me get this brought over here uh share this tab step okay so I’m going to read here from verse six for a little bit okay okay well hold up let’s go back to to four so it’s talking about it’s four Talent you agree that this is a a Messianic song or prophecy that it’s for telling about Christ that’s fine if you don’t want to say yes yet familiar with it right okay

So he said so Isaiah says let me just start at the beginning then if you’re to to make sure we get everything caught up he says who has believed what he has heard from us and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed for he grew up before him like a young plant and like a root out of dry ground he had no form or Majesty that we should look at him and no beauty that we should desire him he was despised and rejected by Men A Man of Sorrows and acquainted with grief and as one from whom men hid their faces he was despised and we esteemed him not yes surely he has borne our

Griefs and carried our sorrows yet we esteemed him stricken Smitten by God H and Afflicted but he was pierced for our transgressions he was crushed for our iniquities upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace and with his wounds we are healed all like sheep have gone astray we’ve turned everyone to his own way and the lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all he was oppressed and he was afflicted yet he opened not his mouth like a lamb that was led to the slaughter and like a sheep that before it shears is silent so he opened not his

Mouth by oppression and judgment he was taken away and as for his generation who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living stricken for the transgression of my people and they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death although he had done no violence and there was no deceit in his mouth yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him he has put him to grief when his soul makes an offering for Guilt he shall see his offering he shall prolong his days the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand so Ross do you agree that this is

Foretelling about Jesus oh yes definitely what were you told in verse 10 says yet it was his will it was the will of the Lord to crush him he was put uh he has put him to grief okay so two things who crushed Christ um it says the will of the Lord the Lord because ultimately you know they made the decision Jesus chose to do it the father agreed that this would happen but what does it tell you what what does it tell you the will of the Lord was it was the will of the Lord to crush him and then who put him to grief um it says basically the Lord put

To grief so that’s not Satan sat Satan wasn’t the one crushing Jesus now we have to take even one more step back and this will be the last thing just because I want to flesh this out exhaustively okay because I’m going to show you that this is entirely consistent go to Genesis 22 uh let me let me just interject for a second okay although Jesus and the father agreed to to go through with this plan to save Humanity you know they knew that Satan what Satan was going to do the part that he was going to plan this and they knew you know it’s kind of like

You know just like with the the whole thing with Adam and Eve you know Satan was the one who got them to sin he was in the garden that’s why God warned them hey stay away from that tree you know don’t eat that fruit because he knew they could be subject to the lies of Satan which they were basically Eve was she went for it Adam he knew better once he saw with the fruit you know he knew better but because he loved her he went ahead and sin anyway you know being stupid is what people do there’s some stuff we could get into there but I really want to keep

Drilling in on this because Isaiah tells us that that the Lord crushed him that the Lord laid the iniquities on him that it was the will of God to do this which involves father son and spirit and so yes this gets into the plan but it doesn’t tell us that Satan crushed him now Adventists tend to love typology so I’m hoping that this is going to be right up your wheelhouse last thing here okay we’re G to read about Abraham and Isaac okay okay you’re probably familiar with the story y but let’s pay very close attention here because I want to point something else out to you okay so

After these things God tested Abraham and said to him Abraham and he said here I am he said take your son your only son Isaac whom you love and go to the land of Mariah and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you so Abraham Rose early in the morning settled his donkey and took his his young men with him and his son Isaac and he cut the wood for the burnt offering and arose and went to the place on which God had told him on the third day interesting that we’re told that Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the

Place from afar then Abraham said to his young men so the men that he took with him stay here with the donkey I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you well let’s pause here Ross what is Abraham following through with here he’s doing a Messianic gravy but what did God tell him to go and do what’s he physically going out and doing he’s about to sacrifice his son well then why did he say we’re going to go over there and worship and come back to you we got to keep reading yeah and Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and he laid it on Isaac his

Son and he took in his hand the fire and the knife so they went both of them together and Isaac said to his father Abraham my father and he said here I am my son sorry he said behold the fire of the wood but where is the Lamb for a burnt offering and Abraham said God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering sorry Ross that’s okay I understand so they went both of them together when they came to the place of which God had told him Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the Altar and took on top of the wood then

Abraham reached out his hand and took the the knife to slaughter his son but the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said Abraham Abraham and he said here I am he said do not lay your hand on the boy and do anything to him for now I know that you fear God seeing you have not withhold your son your only son for me and Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked and behold behind him was a ram caught in a Thicket by his horns Ross do you know what a thick it is yeah what is it just a bunch of you know brush Twigs you know a thorn it’s a thorn bush yeah and Abraham went and

Took the RAM and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son so Abraham called the name of that place the Lord will provide as it is said to this day on the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided so Ross notice what we’re reading here we’re reading a picture of the the father taking his only son leading him up the Mountain carrying the wood that he will be sacrificed on he goes away and has been told this information I just want to start right there carrying the wood to be sacrificed on isn’t it that’s so deep right there what correct but you have to remember

That when God tells Abraham this this is not the first time Abraham has heard this Abraham heard this information told to him by God three days prior yes that’s what it say so three days later Abraham is going and he’s already been told what that he’s going to sacrifice his son which means I’m sorry just you just saying that again it just hit me like three days later how long was Jesus’s um a Ministry three years three and a half basically yeah and there’s probably some interesting uh interesting connection there now so it says that this information was given to

Abraham prior to this moment right here so in Abraham’s mind he was Isaac was already as good as dead yes and on the third day the father received his son back to him and the reason he told the men the boy and I are going to go worship and we’ll be back is because well the answer is given to us I’m going to bring it up it’s in Hebrews 11 wh mouse got out of whack here by faith Abraham when he was tested offered up Isaac and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son of whom it was said through Isaac shall your Offspring be named so

Catch this God has already told Abraham back in Genesis 15 what in you all the nations will be blessed and you’re going to have a son so God had already told Abraham this so because that was the case when it came to Genesis 22 when he was tested we’re told he considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead from which figuratively speaking he did receive him back yes so in Abraham’s mind Isaac was already as good as gone and he knew if God makes me follow through with this he’ll raise Isaac back from the dead because he keeps his promises so I will

Do this I I’ll do it because if I have to follow through with this and he does die God has the power and will keep his promise and he will raise him from the dead the overall point though rths is that Satan did not kill Jesus the father did and that doesn’t the father that doesn’t make the father evil because the the son gave himself freely it was the son’s desire to do such so you’ll get these arguments from the secularist and the atheist Etc who try and do these things of like divine child abuse and all that stuff does not take into that’s that’s a conjecture it’s it’s it’s

Inaccurate statements made on lack of of full information what was going on there was a picture of the Cross of Christ so I just wanted to comment into those things I know that was a little bit there but I just I hope that information is help helpful to you um um to mention a couple things too but go ahead I I do get uh what you’re saying there that is true because you know even though it doesn’t seem like it we know we live in this crazy world even Jesus said that Satan was the basically ruler of this world but God is in control of the universe so he he you know it’s like

I’ve heard to compare like Satan is almost like a dog on a chain you know he can only you know do so much yeah Satan is God Satan yeah Satan is God Satan he’s Satan is not some equal no not God like dualism like a yin and a Yang type thing no no no way but it but I just point out that during the time of Jesus we read about in the gospels there was a lot of demonic possession going on do you think that has decreased or increased in 2025 here is my answer and I’m gonna give it to you from scripture um just a

Second we’re gonna go actually I can just do it on this one so Luke 81 is actually very important actually let me bring that up first just so we can see it and then hopefully it brings up chapter 11 after that yeah so Luke 81 so Jesus is in the middle of his oh Jesus is in the middle of his ministry and he says soon afterward he went on through the cities and Villages proclaiming and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God the good news of the Kingdom we often talk about the gospel that’s good news but we often times for shorthand just say gospel when all throughout Jesus’s

Ministry he refers to it as the good news of the Kingdom now you have to have a little bit of understanding of of the Old Testament Ross to understand what the Old Testament foretold of regarding the kingdom of God Isaiah for example the Suter they foretell of a time where the Messiah will come well the the famous Christmas chapter Isaiah chapter 9 on him will the rest the the the the government and the the increase of his governance will know no ends Etc these are the sort of things that were foretold of the kingdom of God and Jesus went about preaching the good news about

The kingdom of God as the Messiah the foretold one now notice what he says here in uh my mouse is getting messed up again here gotta go down to verse 20 it didn’t didn’t bring didn’t bring up the whole chapter so I did that wrong clearly so we got to go down to verse 20 Jesus is in the middle let’s read here about Jesus and beel so this is the the famous passage where basically it’s being accused that Jesus is full of demons so now he was casting out a demon that was mute when the demon had gone out the mute man spoke and the people marveled some of

Them said he cast out demons by be elel the prince of demons While others to test him kept seeking from him a sign from heaven but he knowing their thoughts said to them every Kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and a divided household Falls and if Satan also is divided against himself how will his kingdom stand so Jesus is essentially saying well if I’m casting out demons by the power of Satan then why would I be doing that that would be a house divided wh why would Satan cast out Satan why do you think they thought that or who got them to think that way or

Well who knows we don’t know because the text doesn’t tell us now there are varing I’ve heard varing theories out there and typically the the argument that I would align with around the why we are speculating here but I would argue that the why was because they did not want to believe that Jesus was who he said he was Jesus was considered a troublemaker by these people which the talmud you can get into I uh recommend people look into what the talet has to say about Jesus um and you’ll get to see the sort of thinking that these individuals in Focus would have been

Under the impression they would have been under the impression this guy is like a soothsayer this guy’s a a magician he’s a he he’s like a a a necromancer he he’s one of these like ma magical you know doing something that the Bible forbids essentially the Old Testament scriptures forbid so that’s why I think but let’s continue he says and if Satan is also is divided against himself how will his kingdom stand for you say that I cast out demons by beable and if I cast out demons by beable by whom do your sons cast them out therefore they will be your judges now

Get this Ross but if it is by the Finger of God that I cast out demons then the kingdom of God has come upon you so Halt and then we got to read a couple more verses what did Jesus just say there implicitly he was saying that if he’s casting out demons then the kingdom of God is upon him if he’s casting out demons by the Finger of God so the phrase Finger of God I know in aist theology they like to appeal to Exodus and say see the Ten Commandments were written by the Finger of God that is just a phrase that means the power of God the same thing it says

Was done by the uh the in in Pharaoh’s courts The Magicians who come in there and it says um it uses that phrase the the the Finger of God that’s just a phrase that refers to the power of God so Jesus says if I cast out demons by the power of God contrary to what you’re claiming then the kingdom of God has come upon you which means the kingdom of God was presently there and upon the people now this is important because of what he goes on to say in the next verses when a strong man we’re going to see who the strong man is fully armed powerful guards his own Palace his goods

Are safe but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoils whoever’s not with me is against me and whoever does not gather with me scatters So my answer to your question Ross is the reason we see less of what we see in the biblical storyline regarding demon possession is because the kingdom of God is here and the kingdom of darkness has been cast out now I don’t want to open up the can of worms of Satan being bound I don’t agree with the Adventist theory about what that means but I believe Satan is bound

Right now due to the uh accomplished efforts of the Lord Jesus Christ in crushing uh Satan’s kingdom and the Lord’s Prayer is essentially being fulfilled which is also stated in the same chapter by the way at the very beginning um thy kingdom come thy will be done I believe that that is happening and the kingdom of God is gradually expanding and Satan being a defeated foe has been bound now and such that he does not have the same sort of um power or authority that he did before after being crushed and bound so that is my answer to your question the reason that we

Don’t see as much of that in the modern day is because the kingdom of God is here and Satan is bound I I would actually disagree on that just like you know like uh just recently we had the story horrific story about the man setting a woman woman on fire in New York and watching her and trying to Flame the fans I’m not saying it doesn’t happen I’m not saying it doesn’t happen I think a lot more than what we we realize I think it’s happening every day I think it inreased but I I I do believe like you’re saying I think when he’s talking about the strong man like if we are connected to

God there’s nothing Satan can do to us you know if you go to God if you go to God you know Satan he’s nothing to God you know you can you know he just can dump away whatever well right but the the strong man here though is is the devil yeah when a strong man fully armed fully armed guards his own Palace the kingdom of darkness his goods are safe but when one stronger Jesus talking about himself yes indeed attacks him and overcomes him that’s Christ crushing the serpent he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoils so you have to understand too the

Old Testament understanding of Kingdoms were a very common thing back then in understanding the sort of hierarchy and structure of a kingdom they would have understood what Christ was saying here as um clearly this strong man is being referenced as somebody whose kingdom has been overthrown essentially let’s look at two I wanna I want to look at a verse and then uh a chapter really quickly and then I’ll I kind let you guys go move on to other things but uh I don’t think we’re in too much disagreement about a lot of stuff but uh do you mind if do

You mind if we pause here real quick because I know Mike has been sitting for a long time and he has been able to say anything I’ve been talking a lot I just thought it was important I want Mike to be able to chime in here for whatever he’s been because he’s been sitting on stuff for a while yeah yeah well I would say just just a point of observation while I’ve been listening um I do think that this discussion is I hope for the audience watching discussion is helpful in the context of the great controversy theme because the disagreement or the dis the the the view points

Diverge because of how the aenis framework sees Satan’s work happening right now versus the kingdom that has already come as miles has said and what that does to the the kingdom of darkness so because of those different views and again this is the great controversy theme the great controversy theme filters through all of this stuff that we’re talking talking about in a way that is designed to organize the doctrines and information into a what what Herbert Douglas says is a coherent way of understanding everything I don’t agree with the worldview because there’s

Inconsistencies with scripture and I think that’s some of what miles was was dialoguing on um so that’s one thing I would I would just kind of as a point of observation the one thing I did want to go to that that we kind of talked about before um I almost feel like I don’t even remember it because it’s been so long ago since isation but Isaiah 14 and I’m I’m just gonna I’m just going to suggest anyone that is currently an avenus anyone that even if you’re a non avenus and you have a concept of Lucifer I would ask you to please do some study on the original

Language around OD star now I’m to read a couple of things I could read multiple articles on this okay but I’m going to read one in particular that I find very interesting because of its connections to something well I’ll let you make that connection in a second so the original language underneath here is Hell okay it does not mean Lucifer it literally means morning star or day star is the way or bright shiny object I mean it’s that’s the the original now I’m going to go to I wish I could have you pull it up I’m going to go to an article from just so

You know where this is this is a baker Encyclopedia of the Bible you I could quote several articles I’m just going to give you one and this is a this is a Bible dictionary that is organized topically by certain headers okay this header is Lucifer here’s what it reads Lucifer Appalachian from a Latin word meaning light lightbearer the Latin term refers to the planet Venus appearing in the evening and morning which is the brightest object in the sky except for the Sun and Moon others have identified it with the Crescent Moon it is also said by some to

Be the planet Jupiter the Hebrew term now I want you to understand okay what was just said is that’s the Latin understanding okay the Hebrew term from which the Latin Lucifer is derived is found in the verse that we were looking at okay this verse right here Isaiah 14:12 have you uh have you uh how have you fallen from heaven and Morning Star some Son of the Dawn you have been cast down to the Earth you have once said low the Nations that’s from the NIV the word means this is Hebrew shining one it has cognate in Acadian ugaritic and Arabic those are just

Semantic languages that have connections to the Hebrew language if you’re wondering what that is the septu agent which is the first translation of the Hebrew Bible which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible the targums and here we go the Vulgate which is the Latin Vulgate which is tied to the early um Catholic um connections the Latin Vulgate translate is it as Morning Star quite fitting in view of the opposition son of the Dawn now here’s what I wanted to end on the Hebrew expression was probably never meant to be a name but has come to be used thus

Because the verse in which it occurs is applied to the to Satan this apparently was done first by Two church fathers tulian and origin however the popularity of Lucifer as a name for Satan may be attributed to its use in John Milton’s Paradise Lost now if you if you don’t know the connection to Paradise Lost with Ellen White’s writings and the great controversy theme there is a major thread okay I’m not going to get into the whole like there’s a whole land you know there’s land M of stuff we could go through but just understand that the word here doesn’t mean

Lucifer Lucifer means Morning Star it literally means bright star now you could you could translate that as an understanding of well I think that’s Satan but you have to inject that into the text especially if you look at the text itself and if you go prior to this what is Isaiah talking about well he’s he’s he’s talking about the king of Babylon he’s using and this is what I was saying to earlier caller he’s using a well-known idea about this Supernatural entity that made this fall in the Garden of Eden whoever that was as a way of taunting and a way of of

Saying see king of babyon you did the same thing and you’re gonna fall just like this being fell now in the great controversy theme the way that’s transmitted is see Satan fell from heaven that’s not what Isaiah is saying Isaiah is saying the king of Babylon is going to fall from his high place and he’s using a well-known uh concept about this entity in the garden to make his case and he claiming that to be true as a prophetic Proclamation Isaiah is is proclaiming this to be the future of the king of Babylon so um just note that Lucifer doesn’t exist it’s a Latin

Transliteration H transliterated from Latin means Lucifer when it’s transliterated and then two early church fathers kind of propagated that concept to be attached to Satan which is where we get what what we have today so I don’t think this is I don’t think his name is Lucifer first of all I think that’s a madeup construct um but that’s a little side point to what we’re dialoguing on um so I just wanted to kind of that’s interesting yeah Ross I’ll give you the final word here I’ll give you about a minute or so we have another guest that would like to step up

This will probably be our last guest of the night so you can have the final word to say whatever you would like and then we will move on thank you so much for being so cordial this has a great discussion with you man thanks thanks for thanks for coming on yeah well a couple things I want to address that really quickly you know um Jesus is also referred to as the morning star and whatever God tries to do Satan tries to twist and counterfeit so I just want to point that out then another thing is um it says in here I guess if you go to um Revelation 12 it kind of tells you or

Actually 13 if I should go there it says um it’s talking about the different kind of beasts or kingdoms the Beast is basically a kingdom and it says here you know it was given it’s power and and seat and Authority by the dragon who’s the dragon it’s Satan so it’s letting you know that if you like you have different kind of Kingdoms different kind of people different kind of rulers if you’re not ruled by God who are you ruled by it’s going to be it’s obviously by default it’s going to be Satan it’s now you’re not it’s like the old cartoon where you had Angel and you have a maybe

A demon on your shoulder which one are you going to listen to each day we have to you know make a choice who are we going to listen to is it going to be Satan or is it g to be God it’s the same thing with Nations it’s the same thing with people and when those people went to attack Jesus and to kill him who are they listening to obviously not God when they were saying crucify him crucify him I remember I was reading a few weeks ago where Jesus has performed a sign of healing the man’s hand and they said show us a sign and I know Jesus like what you know just I just showed you a

Bunch of signs you should know who I am but you know again if you’re not ruled by God you can be deceived so easily by Satan and that’s what happens to people I think that is still happening now and I think those people were being deceived by Satan to say crucify him crucify him but God the Father and Jesus already knew how this was going to play out and they knew they were going to overcome it so I’ll say that then also if you look there’s a uh verse there I think it’s in John where it says Satan entered into Judas so again when je when Judas he was

There with God for three years you know with Jesus learning from the greatest teacher of all yet he rebelled and who would happened he went on Lucifer’s side so I think that people are being controlled by demons being controlled by Lucifer if they are not submitted to Jesus Christ yeah and I think we would agree with that in the generals but uh again Ross thank you so much for being here like I said it’s been a great discussion and so we will catch you around next time if you uh want to come back for the next one of these all right all right answering anti-

Adventists uh are you a Seventh Day Adventist yes okay are you baptized into the Seventh Adventist Church yes okay great we just have to clarify that because we had one individual earlier that decided to join who apparently is not so just wanted to clear that up um which uh well I guess you can pick the direction um we’d love to hear the biblical evidence of the great controversy theme being biblical well my um my argument is not an um is it’s arguing like an ordinary Adventist not like a theologian the general understanding of U what an ordinary Adventist

Understands not what the those those difficult theological terms and those confusing uh what but I see you people try to come up with um my question I have several questions if you argue that there’s no controversy between um well hold what what’s your name sir uh so I know so I know how to refer to you um you can just refer to me as LK as what just an abbreviation LK LK okay uh well LK the the focus of tonight is specifically on the great controversy world view and it being biblical so I think the average Adventist does understand believe some of these things

Such as the point of the Cross being about exalting God’s law vindicating God from the accusations of Satan Etc all of these things are hold on hold hold on hold on all of these things are Central in Adventist interpretation of the Bible and the organization tells us that everything they believe and teach comes strictly from the Bible so on screen are just five of many many many fun fundamental details that are necessary for the Adventist interpretation across the board on various doctrines to be true so we would just love to see some of these things

From scripture not just the general idea that there’s a Satan and that that is an adversary of God as herb Douglas says in this article some may think and he’s specifically referring to seventh avenus here that the great controversy between Christ and Satan the fifth book in the conflict of the ages series they may think of that when they hear great controversy but he says the great controversy theme is more than a historical survey of the battle between Christ and Satan as traced through the events of secular and Biblical history so we are not contending tonight that

There’s not a Satan we’re not contending tonight that there’s not an adversary who hates God Christians believe this that this is not something that’s unique to adventism but the great controversy is not just that it’s a whole pre-earth origin story so that’s what we’re looking for biblical support for so what is the your definition of wi view first of all because we tend to use a lot of that to paint it like um like uh I mean the word view what’s what’s word view what’s your definition of word view the lens through which you see everything so for example when I was

A Seventh Day Adventist whenever something would happen in the world I would always filter it through this is something taking place in this controversy between God and Satan where Satan is trying to diminish God’s law so for example I would view other uh you know I would View Christian churches as well they hate God’s law because obviously it’s right there in the Ten Commandments the seventh day Sabbath why aren’t they keeping the Sabbath oh it’s because Satan enacted this Sunday law or he’s he he enacted uh Sunday worship the papal Sabbath through the papacy and all

These sorts of of details but all of that stuff uh LK that’s not coming from the Bible those are details that are coming from this pre-earth origin story and Ellen White’s writings the Bible nowhere says that so it is a worldview in the sense that it is the way that seventh day Adventists are taught to look and see the world as well as how to read the Bible all right what do you understand by uh like the spirit when the spirit comes you lead you to the whole truth isn’t it does it mean that there is some truth that had not been written in the Bible Well the thesis because

Because the way you you try to bring it is like there must be like three three word sentence the word riew defining it because uh there are things you can figure from The Bible for example in your own arguments you could be right just like the way the devil was right when he said um if you fall down the angels will will catch you he was right you know all and he can can open a hole a whole what a whole discussion of that and defend that correctly but now when we look at now the current what I mean after when Jesus says you hey I send you the holy spirit that will tell you more

And open your minds I mean he’ll tell you more about uh everything so you like we can’t get all the proof from the Bible you can’t say where there is they say hey this and this and this but you can figure out there is some there controversy because Jesus himself say the Bible says flee from the devil no resist the devil and he will he will fly away so I’m I don’t know if you’re getting me well no I’m I’m getting you but if you notice the the open Challenge on screen you kind of just admitted our point um and I I I appreciate your honesty I I I seriously I’m I’m I’m floored um

Because you you stated the elephant in the room you’re right this this isn’t in the Bible and that’s kind of the point and so we’re frustrated um Mike and I as well as millions of other former Adventists um and I’m sure other Christians out there that have heard this stuff too and dug into it um frustrated that this organization consistently tells us everything they believe comes strictly from the Bible it’s all based on the Bible hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on they say everything we believe comes strictly from the Bible all of our beliefs we can prove to you from the

Bible but you just admitted to us that all these details they’re not actually there but you can read the Bible and kind of infer and you can kind of see well see this but my friend L okay Mormons do the same thing and if you’ve interacted with a lot of Mormons before you’ll see they do this exact thing they just do it with the Book of Mormon they don’t do it with Ellen White’s writings they say these the same things this stuff doesn’t contradict the Bible it just speaks about matters that the Bible does not get exhaustive on and it gives us better details they don’t do it

Oftentimes only about their prear origin story but also about Jesus supposedly visiting the United States uh in the 1800s in the 1900s and so um anybody can do that so I appreciate you admitting though that these these can’t come strictly from this stuff doesn’t come strictly from the Bible you see you are very first to win the argument I’m trying to make a point like you trying to say oh mammonism you’re already grouping me with the mammonism with the the next thing you’ll be groing with maybe Muslims or something of the oh no I was just saying they do that same

Thing I mean I’m not I’m not inry to win the argument or anything I’m just trying to to win the point I I’ve already told you the devil would would would have won with that argument that if he fall from the cliff the angels we will pick you up so I’m not like I don’t want to go into the manism and well what I understand about Christianity is believing in Christ not being like Lael ammonis or anything of the sort no no no let me stop you real quick just to clarify the only reason I brought up Mormonism was just to paint you a very if you were consistent Mormons tell me this exact

Same thing that’s all I’m saying and they have a storyline where they can point and say look none of this contradicts the Bible yet it contradicts claims made in the Adventist system so you both can’t be right so my point was just that that’s not really a good standard of like well it doesn’t contradict the Bible and it only sheds light and enhances what’s found in the Bible Well I could sit around tonight and do that that prior to Earth’s creation Jesus was walking around in heaven and he came across an angel that was sitting outside of one of

The gates and this angel had an interesting look on his face he had a big brow Ridge he was the head of the choir in heaven I could just start making up all sorts of stuff that you can’t go anywhere in the Bible to contradict that Jesus was walking around and this Angel was outside this gate but it’s not found in the Bible so you don’t actually know this you’re taking on faith what Ellen White wrote down and you believe it was divinely inspired and that’s fine if you want to believe that I’m just taking umbrage with this organization telling us everything they

Believe comes strictly from the Bible when that’s not true well I think uh uh you are looking in the light of the other side I mean you’re more strictly uh positioned at a particular place not a neutral place because when we talk about uh like when the spirit when Jesus says I’ll give you the spirit that will open up uh what you into the whole truth that’s already WR wait that’s already written it doesn’t say the spirit is not is not coming to say about about the great controversy or forgive my English but it’s not it’s not saying it’s not like coming to be so strictly on the

Issue of I mean to be so SL so what I mean so narrow it’s not well that text well that text isn’t referring to prophecy that text is talking about we just looked at this earlier that text is referring to the spirit being sent by the father and the son at the point of the spirit being poured out on the disciples and the birth of the the New Testament Church so that’s not referring to some new revelation that’s going to come where you’re going to get all this information about a prear origin story or anything like that Miles I think I think that’s I

Think that’s to land it’s not it’s not like it’s not just that one only it’s not just just a minute I meane it’s not just you see now you are that’s why I have issues with the discussing sometimes uh in this strictly positioned channels because you just now now you’re just trying to coil around that one the other verses that we say the same unto us the spirit has reveals reveals what is hidden to to to what I mean un to us yeah that’s that’s that’s the illumination of the Holy Spirit yes yes yes it reveals some other things that are not that are hidden so

What is hidden is not in the it’s not necessarily in the Bible strictly see like like the great controversy if well it could be part of that was is hidden in the Bible it’s still in the Bible we can still get um you can’t I don’t think Adventist just came from home and imposed a great no they came through the Bible understood the Bible and they had their own understanding that there must be mean controversy between what uh the devil and Christ that’s why even even Christ himself says the devil is the ruler of this world we don’t expect us Christians

Living in this world whom the ruler is not Christ the is the Devil Himself and you expect to be have a freelance like you have everything that’s why there is a lot of issues around the Christian churches that’s why you are so divided that’s why they I mean the the world is not is in a mess I mean well I would argue adventism is actually in a bigger mess of division than the Christian church is but that is a topic of a topic for another another time um oh yes okay the I engage with I engage with thousands of seventh day Adventists every year and I’m just being honest

With you my friend seventh day adventism is by far one of the most divided groups groups out there defitely and we expect that because of what even the I mean the church had their own division they had their own problems that’s why well well hold up though the great controversy theme is supposed to keep you guys immune from that you’re not supposed to be part of Babylon supposed to be if if Jesus if Jesus himself had a what a Judas how how we supposed to be immune from uh what from from uh the devil’s I mean the devil’s attack is right but my friend in chapter 14 of your guys’s

Fundamental beliefs book on the unity in the church your organization tells us that there is not supposed to be disagreements around the core pillar not supposed to be right correct and if there is then you guys fit your own definition of Babylon that’s why the great controversy theme is supposed to give you immunity from that you just admitted not only that the doesn’t come strictly from the Bible but that adventism fits its own definition for Babylon no no no the problem with you is you want to win the argument for your post or something but I’m trying to make

A point any discussion what you want is you rush so much to winning arguments I’ve seen your name most of the time but if you really honest with the with the discussions you would see the points not not just to score some goals because I’m just responding to claims that you’re making from your own your own source how do you expect Jesus had 12 disciples how do you expect them I mean 12 disciples who I mean how do you expect like Jesus had 12 disciples one of them and even told them one of them is a devil you look at even the after after after you look at for example

Peter Peter himself was so weak he would promise to follow Jesus but at the end of the day when when the when there’s a lot of what when there’s enough Temptation he would fall back so how do you expect us to and like Advent Church to be so so perfect such that when we promise something we have a our own we have our own beliefs that our we believe our Bible best and they have good intention and they are straightforward but we have individual Adventists you don’t expect all of us to be strictly thinking the same thing and the same line they must be follow there

Must be fallouts they must be like you I mean people who come and then they Justus daugh of that story of where the S through some what through some seeds some some will grow they they’ll grow a bit then they’ll die some will become malignant like you some will will will will what some will grow up to the very end so we don’t expect that because of it would be very I mean the devil has to fight us we have for for there to be for the you to be a true church there must be some I mean the devil cannot be comfortable with you we can’t have I mean Highway we have to have bumps that’s

What I see well LK I look forward to the day that you leave the avenus church because it sounds like you’re already on that path because you’re making the exact same claims I do I I agree with you completely the SDA church should stop making these grandiose crazy claims that are easily falsifiable which is exactly the point I’m saying you’re agreeing with me you’re saying we’re all gonna have you know disagreements Etc and you’re recognizing yeah theology is complex Etc well then this organization shouldn’t be making these laughable claims that they have the theological

God Particle the equivalent of The Theory of Everything it brings coherence allegedly to all biblical subjects they didn’t Discover it it was given to them yes that’s their words that’s not me bringing this charge this is an insane claim and when you make a claim at this level yes you’re going to come under the spotlight other okay Christians Christians aren’t making this sort of claim we’re not claiming these grandiose things I could be wrong in all sorts of areas and I recognize that and I’m sure I am because theology goes deep it depends how deep we go into a Doctrine

And how nuanced the doctrine is but your organization’s the one making these grandio claims and it sounds like you’re even recognizing eh these aren’t exactly true now I want to pause here real quick because Mike has been sitting quietly for quite some time so let’s let him chime in here and you guys can go back and forth I’m just going to turn my or my my camera off so you guys can interact and I don’t want to keep interjecting let me just say a couple of things um and the the first thing would be this isn’t just um a claim if you go and I can’t bring it up on on the screen

But if you go to the the avenus SDA beliefs website um and just unless you have the B the actual book itself uh belief number eight is called the Great controversy yes um and if you read from again you could find it in the book but if I’m just on the website the very first couple of links this will cover the first thing is is how the great controversy began so forget for a second what Herbert Douglas is saying on the screen I agree that this is what Adventists believe but the great controversy theme begins with the war in heaven like this this is this is a part

Of the fundamental teachings of the Adventist Church and here’s you see wait wait a minute sometimes when you say there’s war in heaven hang I hope I’m not interrupting you s yeah let let me finish real quick if you’re a baptized Adventist your baptismal vows make you say that you agree that this is true now you might not live it out you might not whatever but in order to be a baptized Adventist member you have to believe all 28 of those beliefs and claim that they are true exactly so so this has to be a part of your Paradigm as an Adventist you can’t

Just say ah I don’t know I mean maybe kind of just kind of in this battle it’s articulated by the Adventist Church and I think Herbert Douglas is correct in stating that the reason number eight fundamental belief is there is because in adventism it has to be there in order to make whole system coherent I’m not disputing that and sometimes when you guys say like Adventist believe it looks like it’s something horrible it’s not even in the Bible you people you never say that the Bible says there was war in heaven that’s something that you’ll never claim

Because you are supposed to paint the Adventist like in the world view the world has to see the Adventist as very shameful people who believe that are not in the Bible we are saying the Bible says there was war in heaven and we believe that the Adams fall was the devil had something to do with it Adam did not just fall because of he wanted to he was convinced okay so let let me finish let me finish let me finish let me finish let me just finish a bit because we believe that Adam I mean Adam was convinced by the devil who had already fallen from

I don’t think he came back and went back to Heaven no we believe that he that ad and Eve wait a minute let me just finish this one we believe that Adam was convinced by the devil

That you still there oh Elk’s audio went out Mike you can chime back in there until his audio comes back well I just my my response is like where is the claims that he’s saying where is it in the Bible I know that this is what avenus teach but if you go to like the eighth fundamental belief you know the great controversy begins in heaven okay show me that in scripture where does it say like you if you can put on the screen the five claims that we were kind of trying to address um this specifically is part of the Great controversy theme the worldview and it require Ires that the

Jealousy that happened with Satan was because Jesus was given the authority that Satan wanted and he became jealous because of the authority that that’s where it all came from and because of that that’s the attack that Satan began on the Ten Commandments that were also in heaven prior to the creation like all this stuff so don’t like if you come on the show and you’re like don’t just say you know you guys are just making stuff up and making it difficult all this stuff what no this is like go read your own fundamental beliefs guys don’t calm me on here saying like

We’re making these claims and we’re trying to make you all look bad we don’t have to do that your beliefs do it for you yeah well and Mike it’s it’s kind of a good example too there there’s something else that he said and I understand practically speaking why he would say this but he said I he I’m paraphrasing but he started off by essentially saying I’m not here to get into all that real theological stuff I want to talk about this on the lay level and LK if you hear this he dropped by the way I think something messed up on his end it wasn’t him being kicked um I think that is a

Perfect picture of the problem is that and I’ve said this for a long time folks you can go back in the archives and you can look and look and look and I’ve said this repeatedly the average Seventh Day Adventist does not know that they’ve been equipped with these things they think the stuff is biblical now thankfully this guy was willing to even at least recognize well it doesn’t all come from the Bible Well it doesn’t all come from the Bible um of course not but we can deduce and we can you know do these sorts of things um but at the end of the day the average Seventh Adventist

Has not been told clearly and plainly that by being taught seventh day adventism you’re not just being taught another like if you’re a Lutheran or a calvinist Lutheran and Calvinists do not have different World Views they have different systematic theologies where they agree about 95% of things you get into the nitty-gritty where they disagree one side agrees with predestination the other side agrees with predestination but you have to dig deeper than that to see where they disagree so of course there are areas amongst Christians where there are

Disagreements even Protestants and Catholics yet Protestants and Catholics don’t have a different world view we have the same world view and then we disagree around things like mechanics how is the Lord Jesus Christ present in the Eucharist or is he present at all we disagree on finer details on things Etc and we argue over scripture and um some parties are willing to say well we should give precedent to older understandings of people that are closer to the apostles Etc but the argument is ultimately over scripture and we’re focusing on the the grammar Linguistics

These sorts of things that’s not how it functions in adventism in adventism you are equipped with a world view and that world view comes with a Systematic Theology this is why the gospel in adventism is seen as Systematic Theology when you ask an go back folks and look at Open Mic number one and number two okay this is number five go back and look at number one and number two which had to do with change my mind that the Adventist Church has a false god and a false god gospel and listen to the individuals that came onto this platform and sought to defend or

Change my mind Etc on those subjects what you’re going to find is that they can’t just tell you the gospel simply one individual went on a long thing I would I let them go for about 10 minutes before I had to interject they went on a long thing about the sanctuary seven steps through the sanctuary this long convoluted thing where Thy Thy way oh God is in the sanctuary Psalm 77 and so from there jumping to here and it was this long complex thing that’s not the gospel the gospel’s not Systematic Theology but I think this guest gave a perfect example Mike of how Adventists

Are equipped with this lens but oftentimes aren’t even aware of it because what he deemed to be things that were oh that’s you know all the theological stuff that all the scholars deal with but not the lay people yet he’s defending all this stuff he he’s ultimately trying to argue it he’s just saying well okay they’re not all in the Bible all the details aren’t in the Bible but they can be supported by the Bible so he does believe these things but appears to not recognize that he’s actually been equipped with this worldview and and I wish so I get it

Because I’ve been more recently out so I understand the the challenge because you’re equipped with this idea that your version of or your interpretation of the truth is the remnant truth it is the perfect truth and so you’re you’re almost armed with this idea that everyone else is wrong and so it doesn’t really matter what’s brought to you you can just push it aside because our worldview is is is the right worldview um but the pro the problem with that is that it doesn’t allow the individual to actually check it with scripture like that’s the challenge so I

Have yet to hear anyone please show me in scripture where it says prior to the creation of the world say like all this stuff happened show me and and no one has been able to articulate that here’s why here’s what I want an AVST an honest AVST to say because it’s not in the Bible like just be honest it’s not in the Bible it’s in in Ellen White’s writings That’s Where It’s At guys but just be honest yeah and Mike that’s that’s kind of part of my um I’m getting ready to to do a video here I don’t know if it’s going to be this month or next month but

Um it’s gonna be titled something like am I angry um I’m gonna give it’s been a minute since I’ve done this there’s a lot more people that um are are consuming the content on this platform now who maybe haven’t heard this stuff so I’m going to kind of give an overview of why I take the approach that I do in certain contexts and why I can come across pretty abrasive and kind of like a fire brand sometimes but in that is exactly what you just said there one of my biggest pet peeves about this organization is that they won’t own their beliefs it drives me crazy when

Any group does this I’ve done Street evangelism for almost a decade at this point and there are a handful of groups out there Mormons I’ve mentioned them a couple times they oftentimes will do the same thing no no no brother we believe in the Trinity we believe the same thing you do and then I’ll quote to them from their own source documents okay well what about Joseph Smith here who’s literally anathematizing such and saying all these churches are false they’re all apostate and it was their duty to restore the church that fell away they have a f their Creeds and their

Confessions are an Abomination is what he says well our our Christian Creeds put forth what we believe about who God is so you guys don’t well and then they start defending it well hold on now friend why didn’t you just own own that at the beginning just own it just own it don’t do this silliness of like no no brother we believe the same thing no the Adventist Church outright States they’re The Remnant you need to join their church if you want to be saved you risk Eternal salvation if you don’t keep the seventh day Sabbath as they’ve defined and all these other things just own it

And then we can move on to actually discussing those things but at the same time they try to do this whole we just believe the Bible we’re bullish on the Bible the Bible the Bible the Bible yet like we heard from this last guest it’s not there it’s all not there this whole prear origin narrative is the lens by which the Bible is read and I’ve used the example of the cross a number of times tonight that’s just one example yeah why did Jesus come supposedly having a sinful nature like we have but he didn’t sin they claim at least the the Orthodox by the book you know

They’ll say well that’s last generation theology yeah AKA Ellen White it’s like m was getting this from Ellen White not just his own vain imaginings but that doctrine that you apparently repudiate if you’re a Neo Adventist that’s coming from Ellen White and it’s informed by the great controversy theme he had to have a sinful nature why because if not then Satan’s accusations essentially can’t truly be silenced because Jesus wasn’t exactly like we are which means uh there’s not the example set that we can keep the law and and all that sort of stuff so it’s all f filtered through

This stuff it’s not coming from the Bible yeah I I agree I’m I’m I’m comically watching the the chat as as you’re yeah well let’s let’s uh let’s get a couple questions here Bible Vibes she’s an Adventist um she says you guys think Jesus sinned how friend how did you get that conclusion where did I say that of course not Jesus was the antitypical Passover Lamb spotless blemish free of course not we would never claim that I was explaining how in last generation theology which is really just by the book Seventh Adventist great controversy theology the claim is is

That Jesus came with a sinful nature but he didn’t sin we weren’t objecting to that that Jesus didn’t sin we’re objecting to Jesus coming with a sinful nature no he didn’t have a sinful nature you can’t have a sinful nature and not be a sinner that’s a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to have a sinful nature but furthermore um Jesus is not in the Fallen progyny of Adam he’s the second Adam so he doesn’t come in the Fallen line of Adam this is why the Virgin birth which we’re going to get uneasy now for a lot of Adventists here Mike this might make you

Uncomfortable as well um but this is why the doctrine partially I understand has christological implications as well but this is why the doctrine of the theotokos that Mary’s the mother of God the god-bearer is an important Doctrine and the Virgin birth is such an important thing so no we weren’t saying that at all at all let’s see what else we got over here and I’ll let you chime in Mike I know there was one other question man we’ve gotten so many comments up here it’s hard to keep up with all of it let me know if you see something that um you’d like to

Potentially address um I’ve seen it several times I don’t even know where it is um something about the Sunday law you’ll see when the Great controversy theme is V great controversy theme will be true when the Sunday law happens yeah we’re doing a stream on that in two weeks by the way that’s another example like this is again this is another example of there is nowhere in scripture where it says anything about Sunday keeping Christians waking havoc and killing Adventists like this is a horrible Doctrine horrible I mean it’s it it’s so disjointed to the body of Christ to

Think that that’s going to happen that that that Sunday keeping Christians are going to somehow Slaughter and kill Sabbath Keepers over a day it’s also slander Mike it’s also slander and bearing false witness and violating the Ten Commandments and and it’s not even under and unfortunately it doesn’t even understand the Crux of like what each side believes like it doesn’t even it doesn’t even it just shows the lack of theological depth people have inside of the Adventist Church they just have been sold a bill of goods yep Mike we are doing I brought this comment out

From Dave Dave Dave Herer Dave I really am going to encourage you to tune in on January 20th inauguration day where we’re going to be doing a project 2025 stream this is going to be a big year on answering adventism for this specific topic since 2025 is here and Donald Trump won Dave I highly encourage you to tune into that stream um because we will address all of the project 25 hysteria there but ironically enough ironically enough Mike guess what passage of scripture is appealed to in the the individual we’re going to use the Seventh Adventist we’re going to use to

Uh listen to and interact with guess what scripture he uses to support the Sunday law Isaiah 14 oh my word he says the individual we’re going to be looking at says Isaiah 14 puts forth a fstep plan of Satan’s plan to enact the Sunday law so so Miles you remember when I when I said to you this concept of of narc Jesus this like every get read in the scripture where every part of scripture is about the Adventist whatever you it’s yeah yeah Chris Roseboro uses that phrase I don’t know if he coined that or not he’s been using that for like a long time I probably probably a decade I’m

Just saying I don’t know if he originated that or not but but it’s a perfect way to describe a number of of theologies out there for those that do not know Nara Jesus is a term that is used to refer to when a person constantly reads themsel into the Bible and yes the Sunday law is a perfect example of Nara Jesus it’s it’s apparently all over the Bible it’s all over Revelation it’s in Isaiah it’s all over the place and it’s specifically referring to 7th Day Adventists and them eventually getting persecuted because all throughout the Bible present truth

Apparently is just everywhere in the Bible referring to the Seventh Day Adventist classic case of of Nara Jesus Mike is last thing and this I’m gonna do a Shameless plug for a second um someone just mentioned in the in the chat you’re like I propose that Mike gives a description of Revelation 127 to13 which I think is funny AVST are fixated on Revelation I get it uh it’s ingrained um yeah if if any of you are interested this is going to be happening this year if anyone is interested go to the thinking cup.com get familiar with that particular website that’s where I

Write articles um but I am going to be launching an entire walkth through from beginning to end of Revelation from a very different perspective so to whoever this Morton guy is if you’re interested in my view of that you probably should check it out and pay attention when that launch is coming in the next I don’t know couple of weeks months so well cool brother um um thank you for sharing that thank you for letting people know and thank you folks for being here this was a phenomenal phenomenal night thank you to all the Seventh Adventist I I sincerely mean that even the guy who

Joined who was part of the seven Monon 7th Day Messianic Church of the West downtown or whatever it was that he said um thank you as well for for joining I I I’ve not heard of that sect um so I’m going to have to watch back on this I’m glad we have it on record so I can start looking into that more and write some articles on our website about this and study upon the history might make for some good content in the future but nevertheless thank you all so much for being here as well as the guests that showed up we will definitely be doing more of these in 2025 and there’ll be

Some solo ones and we’ll do some more guest appearance ones as well but may Christ richly bless you in the grace and peace won by him and his vicarious death on the cross for Sinners until next time God bless