With The Perrys, Dr. Eric Mason & Adventism: Was SDA Theology Misrepresented?

Hey there thank you for being here we are live and especially warm welcome if this is your first time with us Adventist or otherwise so recently my friend Pastor EJ Thunder Lon was on the with the Perry’s podcast with Preston and Jackie Hill Perry this was the product of an initial podcast that the Peres did with Dr Eric Mason regarding Cults in which seventh adventism got mentioned this of course led to an overabundance of Adventists that flooded the comments claiming these standard sort of things such as that’s not true this doesn’t represent

Adventism Etc this backlash resulted in a number of prominent SDA public figures coming out and responding to the paries by claiming that this was indeed a misunderstanding and a misrepresentation of adventism well in the initial discussion Dr Mason was utilizing information from the new uh newly released try that again Urban apologetics Volume 2 which deals with addressing various cult groups well the chapter on Seventh adventism was written by none other than EJ Lon so because of this backlash Dr Mason and the Perry’s sought to set up a part two with some of

These prominent SDA figure heads along with some of us former Adventists that are engaged in this thing at a knowledgeable level however this results Ed in the public figures on the SDA side either not responding or outright declining the discussion if former Adventists were going to be present this led to part two the most recent video only including EJ since his chapter in urban apologetics was mentioned where he was then brought on to clarify and go a little deeper than Dr Eric Mason did now as anticipated this only led to more Adventists flooding the comment

And claiming the same sort of charges that EJ is a liar he’s misrepresenting adventism he’s twisting things and so on on top of this a number of these same prominent SDA figureheads have gone on to publicly lie and claim that they were never contacted for said discussion but then behind closed doors they admitted such which is why tonight we are going to set the record straight and we are going to fact check all of EJ’s claims in their interview yes all of them we are going to look at primary SDA Source documentation for all of his claims and let people see who is and isn’t uh

Misrepresenting and who is speaking out of turn because they may not understand the SDA system of theology as well as they think they do what matters is what the official sources say not what individual Adventists claim and believe which is is a wide spec uh spectrum of personal and private opinions novel views and Concepts based on their own experience EJ’s comments were made in mind with primary SDA Source documents so that’s what we’re going to be looking at in full after one quick housekeeping item if you like what we’re doing here I want to remind you

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It as well it’s always great I talk with these guys pretty regularly and by pretty regularly I mean pretty much every day um and so it’s always nice to be able to get together in a uh kind of face-to-face way and uh especially in light of tonight’s discussion so anything to add before we get started Fells o um if you have seat belts on your uh your office chairs Buckle them up it’s gonna get interesting put it that way you know it’s gonna be all good all right yep that’s said I repeat the same all right fellas let’s hop into it I guess my question with the SDA I’m

Not as familiar with um even talking and having conversations with um 7day Adventist what are the key foundational essential differences between Orthodox Christianity and the SDA church that you know a lot of people might not be aware of yeah there there are a lot of them um Adventists use the same Lango the same terminology but they generally mean different things in adventism and so they have beliefs that are similar to The Trinity salvation by grace through faith and a whole lot of other things but when you get into their overarching worldview they filter

Everything through what they call the great controversy worldview and uh a number of their Scholars the GC president and the wide spectrum of adventism This Is How They see the world the great controversy worldview and that is the writings of LG white El okay so before you get into that because he’s going to continue obviously in the video Preston asked what is the primary difference between adventism and Orthodox Christianity and EJ said there’s a lot of them this is facts is it not gentlemen true indeed absolutely and here’s why it’s facts we’ve looked at this I don’t know how

Many times at this point there’s mult multiple sources we could look at but this one is just the most forthright down the pipe honest not playing games beating around the bush doing the semantic word game thing Etc Ministry magazine which is for those that do not know the SDA Church’s publication for clergy this was written by Herbert Douglas not some K off in the corner somewhere not some Fringe fanatic Ultra conservative you know you’ve got Scholars like Jud Lake nowadays they’re wanting to to paint some of these individuals well that’s one of those

Real hyper conservatives yeah no no this is like probably the most laed SDA light in the existence of the movement okay that’s who this individual is folks arguably the foremost the Theologian the organization’s ever produced so Preston or rather Dr Dr Mason to answer you quote for Seventh Day Adventist the great controversy theme is the core concept that brings coherence to all biblical subjects every philosophical or theological system Builds on a central governing theme or Paradigm what did EJ say the great controversy worldview every philosophical

Theological system Builds on a central governing theme or Paradigm its central theme becomes that system’s core truth and determines all of that system’s principles and policies now get this now here’s what he Compares this worldview to Steven H the remarkable Cambridge physicist wrote in his 1988 book A Brief History of Time that should scientists discover the Longs sought Theory of Everything to explain the varying mechanisms of the universe we should know the mind of God seventh day Adventists have been given that a perspective which provides

A theory of everything it introduces us to the mind of God we didn’t Discover it it was given to us we call it the great controversy theme how we understand this Core theme directly affects how we grasp the intent of the biblical writers when they used words such as righteousness salvation gospel Etc the great controversy theme helps us to work our way through S CES of theological confusion over the meaning of such realities as justification sanctification atonement obedience and works without the great controversy theme all would remain divided over such

Subjects as the importance of the Old Testament Sanctuary service and the New Testament view of Christ as our high priest mediator AKA investigative judgment the meaning of faith and Grace the place of obedience in relation to legalism why jesusa uh came the first time why he came the way he did and when he will return the Adventist eschatological framework sets us apart from every other denomination that speaks of the end of the world because it is governed by the great controversy theme the distinctly Adventist view is formed by a mutually supportive

Cluster of ideas what are those ideas including conditional immortality 7eventh day sabari inis a premillennial historicist eschatology acceptance of the gift of Prophecy in the ministry of Ellen White teachings about the Priestly work of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary like the investigative judgment and a prepared people by his grace AKA sinless perfectionism this mut supportive cluster of ideas that marks Adventist esoy exists today because the great controversy theme informs all areas of Adventist thought when the controversy is over the purpose of the Gospel will be

Seen as the Vindication of the wisdom power and love of God close quote wow wow all of I mean that’s what he was citing folks that’s what he’s referring to that’s not the only place that that’s listed all of Adventist theology is filtered through an extra biblical worldview and lens that no one else but them has and this is facts being Adventist and no longer Adventist I know exactly what he’s talking about I had a great controversy worldview I used to view the world through this lens and that’s exactly what it is and Christians do not have that so that answers Preston’s question

Exactly exactly it’s not a Christian worldview it is a different distinct thing and notice he said the SDA Church did not discover this as in they were studying the Bible and then found it in there no he says it was given to them and this happened by way of visions that Ellen White allegedly had keyword being allegedly it didn’t come from studying scripture it is brought to the Bible and the Bible is read in light of assuming all of these claims and CNB has brought it up on here before I have the book and we’re going to look look at a quote from

It a little bit later but herb Douglas’s own book the heartbeat of adventism the great controversy theme in the writings of Ellen White and he traces through her writings and shows this Core theme and it is a pre-earth origin story that has to be brought to the Bible to then interpret why Jesus came what he came to do Etc but the Bible doesn’t teach all these things like we’re going to see later but gentlemen anything you’d like to add to that um real quick uh because it won’t be uh much I want to add here because you guys are doing a great job so far um

I just put the link in the chat earlier uh for this article right uh so Ministry magazine uh December 2000 um I put the link for that article in the chat in the live chat I’m also uh doing it right the second I’m putting a link link for um Jim Nick’s uh uh discussion of the great controversy as Vision okay for those who don’t know Jim Nicks was the um head of the Ellen White estate uh for some years and if he’s getting that wrong okay if he’s telling us that it came from Vision I’m pretty sure we could take it from fact that it comes from Vision not from

Bible study as we’ll see uh as we go further on tonight we’re going to cover some other stuff but uh yeah we can we can do this All Night you could literally do this all name yes sir so far one of one I’m not lying yes sir yes sir let’s let’s keep going because there’s we’re going to get far past one before we get there I want you to Define it that’ll help if you get backtracked just a little bit and and and Define why uh to lead in uh press’s question real well what what would you how did LG whites um Authority get established that’s number one number two does because we

Hearing a lot of comments right that nobody goes by that and we’ve evolved since then um how would you connect their historic connection to LG white in the beginning to now is it still effective and then let’s go into because that’s really important the great controversy is to me it’s the it’s crazy and it it’s a it really goes against everything in NASA you know what I’m saying it’s fundamentally against the Nan Council so um if you could and and the fourthly if you can remember this I’ll ask it over do they still hold to the great controversy as a standardized

Doctrine that all SDA churches must believe you got those four got you yeah yeah good questions so Ellen White is seen as the Adventist prophet is um as I said it started from octo no December 1844 17 years old and she began to have dreams and visions and she was the central figure that unified uh this band of disillusioned uh millerites who later became the 7eventh Day Adventist Church and from that time throughout her life they claimed that she would have had over 2,000 visions and dreams her writings are authoritative for them uh they still officially hold to her

Writings as speaking with prophetic Authority uh her she was used her visions and explanations of doctrines and uh cultural way of life Etc were what cemented Adventist doctrines life uh theology Etc and so so Ellen White is is is the the Joseph Smith of of momism the the Muhammad of Islam and the Charles Russell of the Jehovah’s Witnesses so what those guys are for their religion that’s what Ellen White is for sth day adventism when they were studying something she was totally ignorant and clueless of scripture and its teaching she could not understand scripture but

She would be listening from a distance and when they came at an onass where they just could not go further they were confused about something she would break off into vision and she claims that clear explanation of whatever it is they were studying or given to her she then would explain it to them and those explanations would become cemented Adventist doctrines and teachings and she claims that this was given not only for that time but as it were in a cosmic sweep from that time straight through to the second Advent of Christ and they inhabit the New

Jerusalem from their very beginning through to today Ellen White continues to be the voice she continues to be the center around which adventism revolves so their doctrines their church policy their practices university courses dealing with the administ church and his doctrines their Sabbath School study guides the whole nine yards their health message their Global evangelism through and through everything is is grounded on Ellen White and her writings all right EJ explained how Ellen functioned for the movement early on claim to quote selected messages book one page

206 many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid what did EJ mention the foundation of their movement and how she functioned my husband James White Elder Joseph Bates father Pierce Elder HRA Edson and others who were Keen Noble and true were among those who after the passing of the time in 1844 searched for the truth as for Hidden Treasure I met with them and we studied and prayed earnestly often remained together until late at night and sometimes through the entire night praying for light and studying the word

Again and again these Brethren came together to study the Bible in order that they might know its meaning and be prepared to teach it with power when they came to a point in their study where they said we can do nothing more the spirit of the Lord would come upon me and I would be taken off in vision and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me with instructions as to how we were to labor and teach effectively thus light was given that helped us to understand scripture in regard to Christ his mission and his priesthood a line of Truth extending

From that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God was made plain to me and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me close quote and this is why EJ gave the example of Ellen White equaling Joseph Smith Charles Russell Etc because fundamentally speaking that’s how they operate for their their given movements as well they have some special ability to distinguish truth from error that allegedly comes from God and you can’t with them present really distinguish between truth and error basically like they’re this missing piece and and it’s it’s

Ultimately God but God uses people like this and so Charles Russell was supposed to give the millennial Donis this sort of guidance through the storm as they approached Armageddon Etc it’s the same thing here Ellen White and they use that analogy we’ve looked at it before I don’t know how many times on the channel they cite the review and Herald which is Uriah Smith uh in the fundamental beliefs book and they use the analogy where where they talk about that towards the end of time there’s going to be a storm and in this perilous storm God’s giving a a a a sea captain leader

Basically who will be able to guide you through the map which is the Bible to be able to get you through the storm and safely to Shore and that’s how Ellen White essentially functions but did you catch that folks notice how she functioned for the movement that’s exactly what EJ said we could look at early writings which I think you were actually cting that EJ where she says the only portion here that she didn’t mention that’s identical is where she says she didn’t understand a single thing that they were saying she was basically dull she the term she used

Was dull of hearing right my mind was locked for two years straight she was a blockhead basically where scripture was concerned she couldn’t understand it couldn’t make sense of anything scripturally and these Visions is how she would get understanding this is how she would she would um receive light to impart to them yeah and whatever the soal light was that’s what became authentic s the dos and teachings what she rejected did not make it in now for for for for the for the for the SDA critics of Orthodox Christianity and the V selves all they say I’m lying I’m

Misrepresenting them they’re not grounded in Ellen White it’s only the Bible I always POS this challenge to them which not a single one of them dare to accept if all of your doctrines your word your teaching and theology is grounded in the Bible alone kindly because this is this is this is um able to be put to the test it can be proven or this proven this is something you can you know scientifically uh check by way observation let’s let’s test that theory why don’t you remove Ellen White all together remove Len wife from your doctrines remove her as a prophet you

Believe in remove her from your Psy your worldview and all of that and as Orthodox Christians have done stick to the Bible alone and let’s see what happens since you don’t need her and all of your stff in scripture alone then remove her and let’s see what happens they could never do that just just last week I was in discussion with one of those critics of of of of myself and the Orthodox Faith Pastor Ian Myers and I I said well let’s test it why don’t you get rid of her and let’s see what happens and his response was no I can’t do that because they know it will happen in

Fact when you when you study people who have left adventism it’s by simply doing that when we put her aside and seek to contextually understand scripture think of from DM can straight through Dr Jerry gladson uh Dale ratl De Ford and all of the these other Scholars even myself is when we put Ellen White aside and employ the tools of contextual Jesus church history hermeneutics and these kind of things that we realize the Adventist doctrines the interpretations and the views they just cannot stand and we have no choice but to renounce that for those of us who are honest and have

Integrity but to renounce them and become Orthodox Christians that is what happens to everyone who does that as so for the critics who say no it’s just the Bible alone then again we can that theory Lobby that the administ church remove Ellen White y’all can do it just strengthen numbers all of you come together because the world is misunderstand understanding you on your profit all of you come together demand that L be removed from the fundamental beliefs from the church manual from the Sabbath School study guide from your University books and all of these different places

Where she has her tentacles and stick with the Bible alone contextual exod Jesus and let’s see what happened well we’re going to see what would happen a little bit later with a quote from a former General Conference president who um unlike a lot of the modernists understood what would happen if this were to take place but the second thing that he said Allen White’s writings will speak until the end of time and the second coming we already saw that in the last quote as you see there a line of Truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God but

Also selected messages book three page 76 this is where they’ve compiled a lot of quotes on any given topic and this is from the section about this exact thing the heading they’ve included to speak to the end talking about Ellen White’s writings quote abundant light has been given to our people in these last days whether or not my life is spared my writings will constantly speak and their work will go forward as long as time shall last my writings are kept on file in the office and even though I should not live these words that have been given to

Me not just thoughts words these words that have been given to me by the Lord will still have life and will speak to the people close quote it continues with another compiled quote The Heading they give messages to be of greater force after prophet’s death physically I’ve always been as a broken vessel and yet in my old age the Lord continues to move upon me by his holy spirit to write the most important books that have ever come before the churches and the world the lord is evidencing what he do through weak vessels the life that he spares I will

Use to his glory and when he may see fit to let me rest his messages shall be of even more vital force than when the frail instrumentality through whom they were delivered was living close quote EJ was lying now three for three three for three and that third claim is essentially had about three or four of them in there so three of three four of four five of five six of six and potentially seven of seven okay that’s where we’re at let’s keep going gentlemen this so yes doc yeah based on that based on what you’re saying um do do do all Adventists know and

Understand that LG white still influences the framework of their doctrinal Foundation to the this day all of them should and those who claim that she does not they are not being truthful Adventists have 28 fundamental beliefs book that explain and justify their doctrines and fundamental belief number 18 of that is based on Ellen White the gift of Prophecy the spirit of Prophecy is a reference to Ellen White and in that they make it absolutely clear that they believe she had the gift of Prophecy and her writing speak with prophetic Authority and they provide for

The church Comfort guidance correction Etc every five years when there’s a general conference session and that is the highest body in their Church yeah they issue a statement of confidence in the writings of Ellen White wow and they make it clear that they continue to have confidence in her writing and her writings correct inaccurate interpretations of scripture so she’s a Divine interpreter of scripture also before one is baptized as Seventh Day Adventist member there are 12 vows that one have to take in front of the church in the form of questions and one of those vows is to

Pledge your faith and belief in Ellen White’s prophetic Ministry and her writings and pledging to read them Etc okay third clip is that a lie gentlemen EJ did you just pull that out of your neck that’s what they would want us to believe the critics all of the now we’re going to look more closely at a plethora of statements regarding Ellen White being the infallible inter of scripture in a moment but first he said fundamental belief number 18 says this is what identifies adventism as the remnant Church alen White when Adventists reject this or try

To downplay it the reciprocal of that is that they’re admitting they’re not the remnant Church based on the SDA Church’s own standard of what that allegedly is that’s why that that caused the whole thing to collapse their whole identity is supposed to be they’re this end times Remnant calling people out of Babylon come join them they have this special message all of this is supposed to be identifiable according to them according to Revelation by the spirit of Prophecy and it’s the testimony of Jesus and the testimony of Jesus is wherever Jesus is

Speaking and Jesus is speaking in the writings of LG white and that’s what identifies them as the remnant so when Adventists downplay Ellen White they’re literally just essentially saying there really is no need need for us to exist you don’t need to be an ad that’s what you’re admitting you’re saying I don’t there’s really no need for you to be an Adventist thank you that’s exactly correct get this thing out of here they just need to dismantle we don’t need more heresy and sectarianism um there’s already enough of that out there and so that’s all a person’s admitting when

They downplay

Her in conjunction with the statement of confidence in the writings of G white which EJ’s going to read he mentioned it notice what Ellen White had to say about the general conference in session testimonies for the church volume 3 page 492 quote I’ve been shown that no man’s judgment should be surrendered to the Judgment of any one man but when the Judgment of the General Conference which is the highest Authority that God has upon the Earth is exercised private Independence and private judgment must not be maintained but be surrendered close quote well that’s what the statement of

Confidence in Ellen White’s writings is and it’s not outdated that’s the other thing too they can’t use this well you know we’ve changed since then you mean since 2021 like this radical thing happened in 2021 where you no longer uh hold to the statement of confidence in Ellen White’s writings even though it’s still up on the website no because it’s not true they do still hold to that so it’s not some outdated thing and they can’t use that sort of I know a lot of of times some of these you know critics of of Christianity that that’s what we call by

The way folks uh sth Day Adventist quote unquote apologists or what not they’re really critics of Christianity um that’s that’s what those critics like to try and do nowadays they like we’ve changed since then it’s it’s different now you’re critiquing this old you know pre pre-20th Century um adventism pre 21st century adventism things have really changed now folks it’s still up on their website it’s in the last few years EJ said Ellen White was a part of the vows when being baptized into the SDA church this is also correct notice how this is evolved

Okay in the 1870s what did The Vow for Ellen White say or the part of the vows that include Ellen White do you recognize that the remnant church has the spirit of Prophecy and that this has been manifested to this church through the writings of LG white you had to say yes in the 1930s do you believe the Bible doctrine of spiritual gifts in the church and do you believe in the gift of of the spirit of Prophecy which has been manifested in the remnant Church through the ministry and writings of Mrs EG white and then now in the 2020s this is from 2020 from the 2022 SDA Church

Manual do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts and believe that the gift of Prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church so far he’s at 100% folks there’s nothing that EJ has said that was Miss representing so in the comments cuz this is very important cuz I bet you press you experien it too is the Bible here and LG White’s writings here is is LG white writings here the Bible here or are they here when you when you look at what they have to say about her they teach about her she would be above the Bible because she is the

Interpreter of the Bible now hold on bro you know these comments gonna be lit up you got to prove that so give us some proof give us one quick proof because I got to get I want to move on to these other doctrines but I think the foundation of LG white is important don’t you agree yes and so um give us a a solid example cross the entire Global denomination or or or movement Faith movement because it’s not a denomination but um like that proves that like I CU I I’m telling you in the comments people are going to say you’re not in our church that’s not true here you because

You know that right you know they’re going to say that so from your perspective how would you I know how would you encourage them let me read their official doctrinal statement on Ellen White and then I’ll read the statement of confidence that is said about Ellen White and there are tons of other statements and quotes from their official sources cross adventism that I have documented in my books hiding in plainside volume one and adventism made easy the one I recently published yeah the scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the holy spirit is prophecy

This gift is an identifying Mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of LG white her writing speak with prophetic Authority and provide Comfort guidance instruction and correction to the church they also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested Now Catch This doc the writing speak with prophetic Authority in the same way that Isaiah speak with prophetic Authority the entirety of scripture speak with prophetic Authority in fact when you see their exposition of Ellen White’s

Writings as well as what she said about herself how she conceptualized her gift and calling she makes itle clear that the holy spirit is both the author of scripture as well as of her writings she makes that clear through and through and Seventh Day Adventist scholarship leaders continue to argue this for her so so basically you’re saying that she her their officially they would include her writings as the theop nas as second Timothy 3:16 all scripture is inspired by God and so because it’s funny when you read that statement it’s the same language as

Second Timothy 3:16 absolutely that’s what they use and borrow and apply to Ellen White and her writings now here’s another quote from their highest decision making body and this was in 2015 and if you go on their website it is still there and the 20201 is the same reaffirmation this was at the 2015 General Conference session and here’s what the delegates said we and I quote we reaffirm our conviction speaking of Ellen White and her writings that her writings are divinely inspired truly Christ centered and bible-based rather than replacing the Bible they uplift the normative

Character of scripture and correct inaccurate interpretations of it derived from tradition human reason personal experience and modern culture and this here you can go on the adventist.org website and just look up statement of confidence and you will see that it is still there this is what they believe about Ellen White that’s crazy so the reason that I said and anyone who’s reading this can conclude that she’s above scripture is that scriptures divinely inspired they say her writings are divinely inspired scripture should be interpreted with proper biblical hermeneutics but if we

Notice here they make it clear that she corrects inaccurate interpretations of doctrines from scripture and by the way those inaccurate interpretations of doctrines are whatever disagrees with Seventh Day Adventist doctrines and theology so that correction is done by not hermeneutics ex aes’s literal grammatical historical canonical christological Redemptive historical interpretation of the text no it’s done by her prophetic visions that interpret the Bible directly based on her being under the spirit’s influence right yes okay so in light of that

Right all right before we hear him go further Dr Mason we will be glad to not just give you one proof but a whole host of other proofs from various time periods to show this has not changed in the slightest now we’ve looked at the statement of confidence in Ellen White’s writings on here many many times EJ read it in that clip but just to make sure this is crystal clear crystal clear here are others and this is still but a sampling we’ve looked at this I don’t know how many times review and Herald June 3r 1971 quote Protestants have always claimed that the Bible is its own

Interpreter perhaps it’s better to say the spirit of Prophecy we use the term here as synonymously with the gift of Prophecy or testimony of Jesus is its own interpreter the Bible is an infallible guide but it needs to be infallibly interpreted to avoid confusion and division close quote another quote from RF RF Catal same paper February 21 1865 quote and the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed that’s supposed to be the administ which keep the Commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ verse

17 this remnant of the seed of the woman is the last generation of the true Apostolic church that will live upon the earth and the dragon will be angry with them because they will have returned to Apostolic Faith and practice they will keep the Commandments of God as written in his infallible word and not as they are interpreted by a corrupt and apostate Church whether Catholic or Protestant they will have the test Tony of Jesus which is the spirit of Prophecy Revelation 14:10 and this will be a better Bond of Union than any human Creed that ever was

Invented and for these reasons war will be waged against them close quote so the SDA church is supposed to be like we saw in that opening quote they’ve got the antidote to theological Vision the great controversy theme and here we see they’re supposed to be Apostolic Christianity restored Satan’s at war with them and they’re supposed to be theologically bulletproof with better Unity than any other movement to ever grace the Earth they’re supposed to be the Bastion out of Babylon which they claim is doctrinal confusion at the behest of Satan through Roman

Catholicism Protestants are drunk on their do doctrines and haven’t fully separated themselves from Rome thus we’re all lumped in as one big apostate group that are gradually being stirred up to eventually attack them one day because they keep the Commandments of God and we don’t so we apparently hate them for this so RF catell is getting this from Ellen White by the way but his statement is very clear unless an Adventist is ready to denounce this claim an application of Revelation 1410 like I mentioned earlier one of their favorite proof texts then what EJ

Said is perfectly in line with SDA Source documentation gentlemen where was the LIE where was the misrepresentation uh there is none and matter of fact uh if you don’t mind I’d like to read a couple quotes here as well myself um and shout out to everybody what’s going on seeing a lot of people in chat what’s happening um so this is uh two quotes that are similar there’s a very slight variation in volume 20 of letters and manuscripts okay um so it says here we are not to receive and these are Ellen’s words by the way um we are not to receive the

Words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith they gather together a mass of scripture and pil it around their asserted theories they pilot as proof excuse me around their asserted theories this has been done over and over again during the past 50 years and while the script scriptures are God’s word and are to be respected the application of them if such an application moves one pillar of the foundation that God has sustained these 50 years is a great mistake he who makes such an application knows not the

Wonderful demonstration of the holy spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God that’s volume 20 letters of manuscripts uh letter 329 uh 1905 paragraphs 19 okay also so um we are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith they gather together a massive scripture and pilot as proof around their assert theories that was the same this has been done over and over again during the past 50 years and while the scriptures are God’s word and to be respected the application

Of them is such application moves one pillar of the foundation God has sustained these 50 years it’s a great mistake again same volume okay now um she says also in selected messages book one page 84 one thing is certain those s-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan’s Banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the testimonies of God’s spirit okay um and lastly um the Visions given to Ellen White at the outset of her Mission this is um selected messages book three page 340 the pdf version um the Visions given to Ellen White at the

Outset of her Mission brought the importance of the 7th Day Sabbath prominently into view as the testing truth which in the last days would divide the inhabitants of the earth into two classes those who obey God and will be eternally saved and those who reject his law and will be eternally lost the attitude of the individual towards a 7-Day Sabbath would be the determining Factor again selected messages book three page 340 on the PDF or 38 in the hard copy now here’s the thing when we’re looking at um what she’s saying here okay you can get a mass of scripture pile it up as

Proof against what she said and if you apply it that way against what she said then you’re wrong yep that’s that’s what it is so it’s not that you’re not using the Bible oh we can use the Bible no you can use the Bible all day but if you go against what she said you’re wrong according to that kind of uh thinking okay so it’s not so much oh oh real quick because and one of the claims coming up is that uh that Thunder got a lot of flag for um that when he said she can be viewed as above scripture that’s what you mean okay when you say that you can have scripture be

Read and understood in the historical grammatical record uh method excuse me um context and all the rest of it there as it should be right proper hor all the stuff that you should use right if it goes against the scripture then she gets to determine how it’s uh how it’s understood okay she gets to correct right all the things that are the pillar doctrines of this church get to determine what’s right and what’s wrong AKA The Great controversy uh theme that’s what we’ve been saying and that’s that’s a good clarification that’s what he means when he says that she’s above the Bible is

He’s not claiming Adventists don’t claim to have proof texts that they just throw out there and say see it’s biblical because I have a a proof text yet if you try and do that same thing with them they’ll say well no your interpretation is wrong and here’s why ah so it’s not just a given that you can just throw a proof text out there and it’s just it means what you say it means but see that is the sort of uh sub whether it’s conscious or subconsciously that’s the mentality because we teach and believe this is what this verse means that’s what it means if you disagree you just

Don’t believe the Bible well that’s coming ultimately from your inspired interpreter who you’re claiming Jesus is doing the interpreting through but at the end of the day that’s the ultimate it’s what she says that’s how you have to understand scripture and that’s why the statement of confidence in her writings says if your interpretation differs from hers and we’re about to play a clip on this EJ I know you want to say something so we’ll let you say that before we play it we’re going to play a clip here where this has been a long-standing problem and you’re going

To see uh somebody mentioned that tried to do this previously and what the answer is but J what were you going to say yeah very similar to what you and CMB expressed and it’s essentially a deadlock where this is concerned the statement of confidence it still stands it is recent so it’s not just culture statement here that was long ago and no longer exists in the statement of confidence she uplifts the normative character of scripture yep which is code word for she’s the infallible interpreter of scripture so her Visions her thoughts her writings

Her dreams are the infallible interpreter of scripture because as theologians and pastors and Bible readers we go to school and learn all of these tools of hermeneutics so that we can uplift the normative character of scripture to interpret it right but it doesn’t put us above it we are always subject to scripture and when we get something wrong then we we we have to hey come again and we are corrected Etc so she alone as the infallible interpreter of scripture a blist or correctly interpret scripture that’s one thing and on the other hand if you have

An interpretation that differs from her interpretation or the Adventist doctrines then she corrects those inaccurate interpretations of scripture it is a deadlock so in that statement you have a both affirmation of what she does in terms of she’s the infallible interpreter and exed of scripture and also one who infallibly divinely corrects what is perceived to be inaccurate interpretations of scripture so long as they go against sdh and this has always been characteristic of 7th Day adventism from the very beginning people have literally been destroyed for going against Ellen White

Or Adventist doctrines you know again one of the the critics of of of Christianity past Myers uh in one of the posts we were discussing we were back and forth earlier this week and he tried to played fast and loose that Ellen White is no different from me and Dr Eric Mason because our book is seeking to to correct inacurate interpretations of scripture and you know all of the same which TR use so I asked him um are we divinely inspired are we divinely inspired do we speak with prophetic Authority are we is claims of infallibility made for us he exited the conversation and to

This day he has not responded because he he see where this is going because we don’t speak with prophetic Authority we are not divinely inspired we are not infallible and our works the books that Dr Mason produced and the books that I produce they are not what uplift infallibly the normative character of scripture nor do they correct in accurate interpretations of scripture we are not above scripture if two or three years down the line as more we do more research we realize what we wrote previously was wrong we correct it people can’t call us out on it and if

This critic truly believed that argument he was making then that mean he should utilize my books and Dr Mason’s books infallible inter of scripture just as white and I’m sure he’ll not be willing to do that yeah but brothers and sisters there was no lie in the statement I made this is what they believe and teach through and through people’s lives have been destroyed in a variety of ways for going against SDA doctrines just as as L white says for going against El white interpretations just as how the statement of confidence says how how it is through and through

If any of those critics right now would disagree with Elite or Adventist doctrines or any interpretation they would be asked instantaneously they will be systematically blackballed and destroyed we’ve seen it I respect this is facts right and that’s ex that’s exactly correct yeah if you have an interpretation that differs from something she said On Any Given passage your interpretation is going to be labeled human tradition human reasoning Etc now Dr Eric Mason mentioned historical grammatical method of interpretation which the SDA Church claims to affirm Ted Wilson claims it’s

The only approved hermeneutic of the SDA church we have him on record saying this multiple times in multiple places at multiple periods but these statements do not comport with the hgm the statements about Ellen White that we’ve been talking about which further proves this is only lip service on the organization’s part and these are the sort of things personally that drive me insane about this organization they love paying lip service to things but then practically speaking it’s like no no you don’t no you don’t you’re literally just saying this to try and make things seem a

Certain way but practically speaking you don’t uphold the hgm because any inter a that disagrees with her is going to be said to be incorrect we’re going to listen to a number of Clips tonight from Walter Martin’s appearance on John Ankerberg and we’re gonna look at one of these now that serves as an example of this this first clip is when John Ankerberg is pressing William Johnson who was the SDA representative on what happens to those who disagree with Ellen White’s interpretation something EJ just got done talking about what happens to people that do that pay very close

Attention to the words that William Johnson says okay the point of this is to show this has been a longstanding problem and is the 27 fundamentals of belief and you talked about the general conference in session it is only the general conferencing session which is a a large Gathering from around the world that can change in any way the fundamental beliefs of this church well it sounds to me Walter that that Dr Johnson is advocating a new view and I’d like to push him a little on that on that view and that is I’m not advocating a new view okay the view that I hear is

That we can disagree with alen white and that is of no consequence that’s what we’re hearing well that’s what I’m hearing it happens in in practice in the in in certain parts of the but that’s the one one illustration we were bringing up it seems in practice that that’s the only thing that we can see against a guy like Dez four Walter Ray Desman Ford’s teachings were tested against the scriptures and the The glacia View uh group testing them against the scriptures did not see light in his view did not see light in his view did not see light in his

View it’s out of that context not against Ellen White because they judged Desmond Ford at the Glacier View conference by Ellen White that’s exactly why he isn’t there anymore whenever it came at that conference to a point of disagreement on what Desmond Ford was saying the appeal on the part of the Adventist judging him was not to Holy Scripture but to what this White’s interpretation of scripture was that’s why Ford is not there so notice Dez Ford presented an ex of Jesus to the SDA church that did actually utilize the hgm I have it on my shelf behind me

Actually it’s one of the books back there a massive work by the way but William Johnson said his interpretation was rejected why because they didn’t see light in it did you catch that which means what it didn’t mesh with Ellen White’s writings so it was rejected and look what happened to him I rest my case this next clip is a little long it’s about five minutes because we need to hear Dr Mason’s leadup to uh J’s Fuller answer because we gotta move I want to move to the next one because I know know what’s up no I’m sorry I just wanted to kind of just touch on that

Real quick uh the Des for thing real quick um go for just super fast um so there is a a PDF available right uh it’s the book is there’s a a longer 900 plus page book um and then there’s a smaller book that’s like almost like um almost like the minutes from uh when he’s making his uh presentation of the issues with the investigative judgment right so um that one you can check that out um it’s available for free online you can also purchase the book um on Amazon so uh we’ll try to make that link available at some point in time U maybe in the comments after the show’s aired um we’ll

Put the link up so that you guys can check it out for yourselves okay but that’s all I just want to say thanks time and all of that but we wanted to get through these few things I want please jump in because this is so important christology okay that’s what I was about to ask next yeah yeah yeah like the great controversy fundamentally is about christology uh the the study understanding who Jesus is so can you can you succinctly walk us through the great controversy and and and and and and and and so and then let us know whether or not the great controversy is still

Applied to the person of Christ today yeah absolutely through and through the great controversy world View and teachings is what defines adventism one of their Scholars Herbert W Douglas well several others as well makes clear that that it is the the center around which everything resolved it’s it’s what the theory of everything that explains everything and pulls all the doctrines their lifestyle their mission everything together the Adventist Pioneers were not trinitarians they were Aryans and semiarians they profusely rejected the doctrine of

The the Trinity and the de the deity of Christ and so in the great controversy motive when you study Ellen White’s writings and what the Adventist Church believes is that Jesus was Michael the Archangel leader of the angels of heaven Satan or Lucifer was also an archangel and also a leader of the angels in heaven and So eventually God promoted that is God the Father promoted Jesus to be equal with himself to deity status and invited him into his counsel and fellowship and purposes now Satan or Lucifer who was also a co-equal Archangel with Jesus got

Jealous of Jesus’s promotion because he thought that he was deserving of that promotion more or better than Jesus and so being jealous of Jesus’s promotion to deity and God’s status he then began to travel the Heaven and the unfallen worlds as Adventists teach and believe and begin to slander and challenge God’s character and Authority stating that his laws are unjust they can’t be kept in the whole nine yards he was able to deceive one-third of the angels with him and this now began this great controversy between Christ and Satan this is also one of their fundamental

Doctrinal beliefs go online type of the great controversy and you will see it go on aden’s website you will see so brother Thunder can I ask you a question just before you ask the question let me you got you got my mind going you got my mind going but be that as as it may so now God and Christ are engaged in an armed wrestling match with Satan this great controversy where God now has to prove that he is just that he is loving and that his law can be kept and at the center of this great controversy is the Ten Commandment law and when you go further into that it is the Sabbath and

So God and Satan are in an armed wrestling match so that God can prove his justness the jce of his law and his sovereignty and this now will ultimately be done through Seventh Day Adventist ultimately keeping the law perfectly to vindicate the character of God within this great controversy Paradigm the main reason Jesus came to Earth to be a man and subjected to all of this and to die Etc is to actually vindicate and defend the law of God from the accusations of Satan he was the perfect example he proved that the law can be kept so now Adventists empowered by the Holy Spirit

Can do the same and ultimately vindicate God’s law and his character from the attacks and the accusations of Satan wow so this is in a nutshell what the great controversy is and this continues to be the overarching worldview that defines Adventist theology it explains their Sabbath Doctrine their trans their fixation on the Ten Commandment law um the their health message Soul sleep the nature of humans evang ISM their view of Roman Catholicism and Protestant Christianity their eschatology their their their doctrine of being the sole and exclusive Remnant

Church the only true church on Earth everything is defined and explained through this great controversy lens and worldview where’s the LIE what there was a lie what EJ described there is EXA L correct and we’ll look at sources for all of it what he said was perfectly in line with what we read from Herbert Douglas the great controversy theme defines everything in Adventist theology it’s the filter but on top of that to answer Dr Mason’s question about if this is still normative in adventism one the current theme or rather it just ended but the global

Theme for the Sabbath School quarterly was the great controversy this past Quarter Two two the product that the corporate 7th Day Adventist entity 7th Day adventism trademark the product that they are selling is the great controversy worldview that’s what their goal is that’s their product this is an organization a corporation that is selling a product that product is the great controversy worldview and little by little the goal of the organization is to get you to adopt that worldview such that you then literally view the world and all of reality through their

Product and they are a One-Stop shop from Cradle to the Grave where you can be plugged into this organization and it’s just like any other organization you’re you’re a a a top of the the pile in terms of the good obeying Adventist um not a bad Adventist as some of the internal jokes would be um you’re a good performing 7th Day Adventist if you are doing all these things that J mentioned that ultimately are being defined as your tithe are you coal portering are you selling Ellen White books are you adhering to the health message all of these things are informed by this

Worldview and your embracing of that worldview and putting that lens on is what is going to be the fuel behind you going and doing all of these sorts of things it’s just like an organization but then on top of that they’re trying to pass out billions of copies of the book so yes it is very much still Central anything before moving to the next quote where was the lie some sometimes one one really has to wonder why do they respond the way they do I mean even if you have just a faint grasp of adventism you listen carefully you would have read some of

Their sources or even sit through some Sabbath schools and this is exactly it but it seems like when it comes from the mouths of forers or Outsiders it just sounds so crazy or farfetch to them that the natural reaction is to is to get angry and bitter and to accuse you of lying I guarantee you if one of the critics were making this presentation in their Echo chamber on SBA Church I mean they would have been crushing and killing us if they would have said exactly what I said yeah and they are pulling up L white quotes all the Sabbath School study guide to prove un justify what

They’re saying they would have been lorded as crushing it but but but hearing it from from somebody else’s voice and having that internal knee-jerk reaction that this sounds crazy that is why they react the way they do but the fact and reality is that is what the church believes that is what they believe that’s what they teach I mean anywhere you look the evangelism whether in TV or in person you said adven school I mean come on we have been SDA guys like do you really think we become blanks we become testles when we the system we have instant I have such a difficult time

Sometimes trying to understand the complexities of the Adventist mind and the the arguments and the defense mechanisms and and and the way they try to make it look so stupid like dude you’re in alternate reality we don’t believe on teach this you tell me if I come to one of your church right now to sit through SCH like I’m not going hear it and if I do hear it and then as I leave the precs and and repeat this is what they said or will they teach then I’ll be attackes don’t come on every aspect of SDA from scholarship straight down University straight down even to the little

Children they are Tau in their ways they can grasp these things but as soon as as an Orthodox Christian like me says it or CNB or a nonc it’s like we are crazy we we are lying we are angry we are bitter we’re accused no we don’t believe and teach that you are misrepresenting us this is not our doctr that is a lie and these sec would sit down people are teaching it or they themselves are teaching it and they are reing in it withle riously if you say it yeah it’s yeah EJ your camera is super laggy so you’ll probably want to click it off um it’s probably messing with your audio

Some as well but uh yeah I know it’s it’s exactly correct if if people were unable to to hear what he was saying he was just pointing out how there’s sort of this mentality of when you leave adventism you you you missed that part of your baptismal Vow where in the fine print it said we’re going to do a data sweep of your brain when you leave and you’re not actually going to remember anything that you believed or anything that was taught or anything about your experience that’s all going to be totally sweeped from your mind and uh you’re probably going

To go out and just start parting a bunch of lies and just making a bunch of stuff up even though all of our source documentation says this even though our website says this you know we’ve pointed things out on this platform before and we’ve looked at the the receipts and stuff on this folks and then you get them reaching out well that was a slip of a keystroke oh your website your website which is has literally cryst ogical heresy on it is it’s a slip of the keystroke that’s not what you guys actually teach even though okay then I send them you know three or four sources

That say this no response oh right right because that’s what you teach don’t tell me this a slip of a keystroke but they they play these games and it just it’s so tiring it’s like own up what you guys actually teach and believe own it and then start defending it from there so we can actually have a productive conversation but instead they know that we know that they know and because of that instead of actually having the discussion and Def and defending it they’d rather take the route of just going well you’re misrepresenting and when I say they I’m

I’m talking in this case about these you know critics of Christianity over there not all Adventists are that way some of them are genuine people who they’re not aware of these sources if that is you we’re not dogging on you but he was just pointing out that that’s the response that they have you’re misrepresenting you’re lying except literally everything that he said so far perfectly accurate he said the avenus Pioneers were not trinitarians they were Aryans and semiarians they rejected the Trinity and the deity of Christ where’s the LIE CMB where’s the

LIE there is one yeah um and matter of fact I think it was uh um yeah it was U one of the of my last shows when uh we did a review of the of part one right of the Perry show on my channel so Shameless plug ha right but um in that we actually looked at um the SDA encyclopedia right and on the SDA encyclopedia they have an entry about the Christian connection some of us uh well I never heard about the Christian connection I was SDA for 25 years from birth you know until I was 25 um and I’d never heard of them before I heard of the millerites but I never heard of the

Christian connection that was the stop off point for some of the people beforehand including um James White and um I believe H medicine maybe uh I believe and maybe and some others but um yeah they were staunchly anti-trinitarian all right um You can look up a lot any number of their works the beginning um and to see how uh they refused to believe the Trinity they were antitrinitarians as a matter of fact you know many them and because of that and because of their influence even on Ellen White you get this nonsense in the uh the story of redemption is it um what’s

The one you the volume one spiritual gifts volume one Spirit of Prophecy yeah yeah yeah Spirit of Prophecy volume one right um of this scene you know where Christ is exalted and it makes perfect sense if you’re an Aryan or a semian to believe that if you’re a trinitarian it makes no biblical sense right and I’m sorry but you know I might be offensive to some people but trinitarian is what the Bible teaches about God’s nature sorry you know that’s what it says in the scriptures and that’s what we believe that’s why we hold to this positioning right and for SD to say that

They are trinitarians even though that’s on the website whatever the case is but when Wells down to Brass taxs of what actually is believed and what’s actually taught you don’t see that you’re not going to find um Christian uh theology in terms of christology trinitarian christology if you look at the sources alone in SDA Church it just doesn’t work that way yeah he mentioned the Christian connection we’re going to look at a quote from a qualified Adventist historian on that in a moment but notice first statement here is from Jerry moon in his book on the Adventist Heavenly

Trio this is the chair of church history at the flagship Adventist Seminary is he a qualified Source say so yeah more recently a further question has AR with increasing urgency was the Pioneers belief about the godhead right or wrong as one line of reasoning goes either the Pioneers were wrong and the present church is right or the Pioneers were right and the present Seventh Adventist Church has apostatized from Biblical truth close quote so so he recognizes in both his book as well as his papers on this subject that the SDA Pioneers were not trinitarians not Orthodox trinitarians

Or the Heavenly Trio version that adventism holds to in the modern day but calls the Trinity the Pioneers were neither now notice another SDA historian is George Knight a qualified Source this is in his book search for identity considered a laed light in the avenus movement Christian brilliant man still alive quote one branch of the restorationist movement had special importance to sth Day Adventist the Christian connection James White and Joseph Bates two of adventism three founders were members of the Christian connection beyond that Joshua V heims

The second most influential millerite leader was also a connectionist minister all in all the Christian connection made an extremely large impact on both millerite adventism and later sabari and adventism Beyond General thinking patterns two examples will have to suffice the first is that Joseph Bates the Apostle of the Sabbath would frame the seventh day Sabbath as one of the things needed to be restored to the church before Christ could return a second is that Bates and and James White brought anti- trinitarianism into adventism from their restorationist

Background certain restorationists pointed out that the Bible nowhere uses the word Trinity they eventually came to regard the Trinity as one of those doctrines Christianity adopted during the Middle Ages as a product of the great apostasy from scripture close quote the these are pioneers that founded and helped systematize SDA Theology and George Knight recognizes they were antitrinitarians who believed the Trinity was a doctrinal product that was adopted in the Middle Ages as a product of the great apostasy that they claimed started immediately after the

Apostles so yet again EJ was not lying he said the Adventist Jesus was Michael the Archangel leader of the host of Heaven Satan was also an archangel and also a leader of the angels in heaven ding ding ding once again this is spoton notice folks signs of the times June 6 1911 pay very close attention here quote the Eternal Word gave himself he did not aspire to be equal with God did not meditate a usurp of the Throne of the universe then they cite Philippians 2 5-7 we’ve looked at their interpretation of this many times but he emptied himself gave himself then and

There for Sinners he took the form of a servant becoming an angel among the angels that he might redeem the Angels but they would not and when they the Angels rejected the righteousness and life so freely offered he descended lower still to those duped by Satan Fallen man stooping even to death that he might redeem of the Fallen all who desired to be redeemed and vindicate to the universe to all eternity the character of God that was the work of the word of God the Eternal logos when he became Michael the Archangel when he became Jesus the man of Nazareth when he was anointed the

Christ when he died our s our sacrifice on Calvary yet during all this time the host of evil with all the baleful deceptive cruel devices of sin were hurled against him that God’s character might be marred that the great Vindicator Redeemer might fall close quote so according to this the Adventist Jesus became Michael the Archangel the host of the Angelic armies but he became an angel to try and redeem the Fallen Angels in the great controversy those that followed after Satan but they then rejected him so then he incarnated as a man going even lower

Which means what he became an angel but he was still higher than humans when he did that but then they rejected him so then he lowered himself even further by becoming a man to redeem humans and Philippians 2 is what is cited to try and support this idea and EJ mentioned also Jesus coming to vindicate God’s character from the attacks of Satan we also see that mentioned here and have in 500 other places before in the same publication little over a year later this isn’t just a one-off same paper July 23rd 1912 quote he talking about Jesus Took the

Nature of angels to repeat the first step then in his humiliation in laying aside his divine nature was to put on the nature of angels and thus it is that we have Jesus brought to view as Michael the Archangel the commander of the host of Heaven the captain of the host of the Lord and as such the armies in heaven follow him when he became an angel he bore A fitting name even as when later he became a man his name befitted the nature which he took by virtue of his birth into our human family that was Emmanuel God With Us his name was as an angel or his name as an angel is Michael

Which signifies the one who is like God whoops forgot to get the second part of the quote here but it says whatever the name that he takes in crushing sin and rebellion in Redeeming the lost and in restoring Harmony to the universe that name must indicate that God is in him and with him on the very plane and in the very nature of the class of beings to whom he has sent by living the god life on the plane of angels of which Satan was one although Fallen he could neutralize the force of Satan’s accusations thus when he became an angel the fact must not be lost sight

That he was God with the angels yet living on their plane possessing their natures and this thought is preserved in the name that he bears as an angel close quote wow so in conjunction with the previous quote we again see their interpretation of Philippians 2 that Jesus set his divine nature aside taking on the nature of an Angel not just that he was a messenger folks they love to appeal to the word angel in this discussion and say no no no we’re only ever using that word to represent a function as a messenger or a title like Archangel yeah these primary sources say

Jesus set aside his divine nature taking on an Angelic one then like the previous Source he took on the nature of a man but as it plainly states when Jesus Took on the nature of angels that is when he became Michael the Archangel commander of Heaven the head of the Angel armies what did EJ say that was a lie I rest nothing at all if if I may if I may

Add it is not s that understand

And again when you explore the Adventist pioneers and Ellen White and their christology um for one Christ was created and so afterwards when they start to use eternal in conjunction with him that it was that when we think conceptual it said as Eternal and so stud them that’s what they had to say on the matter that there was a time Christ did not exist God created him but it’s been so long in eternity pass that from our vantage point when we think about it or talk about it we could use and use of

Eternal classical Orthodox trinar understanding conization y simply means our limited scope has been so long in eternity past that it can be said or understood as Eternal and so again nothing said was a lie and and of course they want us to understand that Jesus became an angel took the na of I mean repeatedly over and over these these statements

And also an arel and then eventually to promotion to De that and so again the original Source documentation ADV theology that even inform that trinitarian

Verbiage EJ your audio your audio is your audio is roboting um you may want to try exiting and then coming back in I don’t know if it’s something on uh on your end but your audio is like super robotics I will while you do that I will translate for the audience um he was essentially saying folks that when they point out here they say the Eternal logos in that previous quote um what they early on meant about eternal was the idea that Jesus came into being he had a beginning um but they won’t say he was created you can read people like EJ Wagner on them

Um J La Lao lbo um he didn’t have he wasn’t created they would have said he wasn’t created but he had a beginning but that beginning was so far back in the past that you could well essentially say that it was eternal because it was so far back that well it’s in from our vantage point and how we use words it would be Eternal so he was just pointing out that even though they try and put that in there in that previous quote very clearly you see these sources here do not say that the term angel is only used of Jesus in the Adventist uh framework uh as a messenger no it very

Clearly says he took on the nature of angels he became Michael the Archangel when he took on the nature of angels and he did so to seek to redeem the angels that re buil with Satan but they rejected him so then he incarnated and became a man Etc with regards to Satan being an archangel the other point EJ claimed advinus will often try and use the argument sometimes that scripture only ever mentions one Archangel and this supports the idea that it’s Jesus same thing Jehovah’s Witness is trying to say first notice quote cherubims and seraphim Angels and

Archangels plural are watching the battle talking about the great controversy that’s going on in this life plural archangels again Angels and Archangels are looking upon God’s chosen ones with the most Earnest interest to see what influence the truth is having upon mind and character to see how much they appreciate the one who was crucified for them that they might have eternal life close quote says the same thing showing that it’s not a one-off now with regards to Satan specifically Ellen White signs of the times in 1882 quote Rebellion originated with

Satan notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the Heavenly Host he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded Supreme honor hence he questioned God’s purposes and imputed his Justice he bent all of his powers to Allure the angels from their allegiance the fact that he was an archangel glorious and Powerful enabled him to exert a mighty influence his complaints against God’s government at first met with no favor yet being urged again and again they were finally accepted by those who had before been loyal and happy subjects of

The king of Heaven close quote very clearly she claims he was an archangel also and notice once again they appeal back to the great controversy narrative that prior to Earth’s creation Satan rebelled against the Ten Commandments that’s God’s government and began attacking them which was akin to attacking God himself so once again what EJ said is perfectly in line with primary SDA Source documentation and until they are prepared to denounce Jesus having an Angelic nature as damnable heresy that was published in their own church papers and taught to

People as authoritative truth then the problem will remain any thoughts on that before we move to the next Point here all right EJ mentioned God the Father exalted Jesus to be made equal with himself and invited him into his counsel and fellowship this made Lucifer jealous he began spreading rumors to the angels and unfallen worlds and the abous God is now trying to vindicate himself or themselves from these rumors and accusations namely that the law is unfair cannot be kept which is the ultimate goal and plan of the controversy the Adventist God

Vindicating his character and we mentioned it earlier just go and read Spirit of Prophecy volume 1 starting on page 17 chapter 1 very first paragraph at the beginning of the book go there go to the egw writings. org website type in the search bar 1sp space 17 read five Pages then listen back to what EJ said as an overview and you tell us where he was not being truthful it’s free online all of what he said is present there okay next clip man you just said a mouthful bro um thank you for for the background and the education man I a lot of this stuff is

Even new to me um what okay a lot of what you just said sounds a lot like uh the Jehovah’s witness’s faith that I’m pretty familiar with right they also believe that Jesus is um Michael reincarnated as Michael the Archangel um and when I had conversations with them they clearly believe that Jesus is not the Eternal God right that he is a created being Michael the Archangel right but when we put this online and it was all in the comments there were multiple people who believe or said they believe that who are SDA they they said they believe that

Jesus was the Eternal God and that he was not that that that he was referred to as Michael the Archangel but at the same time like that was just one of his names but he is the Eternal God the same thing that U Orthodox Christians believe and so can you explain like is is it is it them just clearly having a misunderstanding of the historical background of the of the Sea church that you just gave um like why do you think well to me it seems like so many Christians don’t mean so many sdas don’t believe that or don’t understand the church history in that way yeah does

That make sense yeah a lot of what what the Adventist Church does is that because for them subconsciously Ellen White is infallible there are those back in the day who used to be straight up and say she’s infallible but these days especially since the 1950s with the Evangelical dialogues with Dr Walter Martin there more shy to just Embrace what they actually believe and so they cover up a lot of these teachings with proof text from scripture and verbiage of Orthodoxy and so they believe that exact theology about Michael the Archangel in fact the Jehovah’s Witnesses when they

Came around in 1879 they got that theology from Seventh Day Adventist wow I didn’t know that Witnesses founder influenced by sth day adventism so Soul sleep and Michael the Archangel and a number of other things Jehovah Witnesses got from Seventh Day Adventist and they continue to be uh faithful to the original teaching but because adventism now start to get a lot of flack and they want to appear to be more Orthodox just like everybody else they have piled on a lot of verbiage and proof text of Orthodoxy to make it look like we are Orthodox and

We’ve always been that way and so that is why you see they’ll they’ll run through scripture to prove that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is Michael the Archangel and all of these different things that Michael is the only Archangel and it simply means chief of the angels and the list goes on yeah so what they’ve done they still have the original teaching but they pile on a lot of things that make it look Orthodox so all right before he continues Preston if you watch this the issue is definitions and scaling the language barrier which goes right back

To the great controversy worldview it is what does the defining when SDA theology borrows Christian words they do not mean the same thing such as the term person with regards to the Trinity notice what again Jerry Moon says in his paper the Quest for a Biblical Trinity quote James White certainly did not doubt that God is Spirit John 4:24 but he insisted that those Spiritual Beings plural Spiritual Beings Christ and the father are nevertheless Divine persons who have a literal tangible existence they are neither unreal nor imaginary the trinitarian Creeds he knew

Of made God so abstract theoretical and impersonal that God was no longer perceived as a real caring loving being for example one trinitarian Creed that early Adventists quoted fairly often was that of the Methodist Episcopal Church Ellen White’s Church of origin that Creed says in part there is but one living and true God Everlasting without body or parts the early Adventists vigorously refuted citing several biblical passages that portrayed God as having both body and parts Alan white was also much interested in this question twice in early visions of

Jesus she asked him questions related to the form and person of God in one early Vision she reported seeing a throne and on it sat the father and the son I gazed on Jesus’s countenance she said and admired his lovely person the father’s person I could not behold for a cloud of Glorious light covered him I asked Jesus if his father had a form like himself he said he had but I could not behold it for said he if you should once Behold The Glory of his person you would cease to exist close quote nice little demotion of Jesus there by the way you can behold you you

Can behold me but not the father he’s too glorious I’m not but when the SDA Church says they believe that God is three persons they mean three tangible literal forms that look like we are because Ellen White also claimed in the great controversy page 644 quote in the beginning Man was created in the likeness of God not only in character but in form and feature so in Vision Ellen White allegedly saw Jesus and he told her that the father has a form just like him and man being made in the image of God means we don’t only we didn’t originally only have a

Character that mirrors God but we also look like the Heavenly Trio persons do now Moon continues in that paper even recognizing Ellen White’s development of the holy spirit being a person notice she doesn’t include him in the great controversy narrative you’ll notice a lacking of that when you go and read spiritual G uh spirit of Prophecy volume 1 page starting at page 17 she doesn’t include him in the great controversy narrative that’s because at that time they didn’t believe the Holy Spirit was a person but notice what moon recognizes quote in the

1890s when she became convinced of the individuality and personhood of the Holy Spirit she referred to the holy spirit in literal and tangible terms much like those she had used in 18 50 to describe the father and the son for instance addressing the church at Avendale College in 1899 he declared the Holy Spirit who is as much a person as God is a person is walking through these grounds unseen by human eyes he hears every word we utter and knows every thought of the mind close quote so even the holy spirit in the Adventist View has a physical body like

We do and he was walking around in Australia in the 1890s but he’s invisible he has a physical tangible form like us but is invisible okay but that is just an example of how they don’t mean the same things Christians do the same thing Christians do when we use terms such as God person gospel Etc God in Adventist theology the word is like a familial title like like Perry is for Preston and then EJ made the claim Charles T Russell was influenced by seventh day adventism factual I mean is that even arguable both parties go back to millerism and the original Advent

Movement it’s like I don’t think we really need to show sources on that so so far anything else to add gentlemen I haven’t detected a single lie yet and there are some SD who don’t seem to know that so let me so let me ask you this I know one of the reasons well one of the ways in which the Jehovah’s Witnesses tried to justify that Jesus is Michael the Archangel because in 1950 they published A New World Translation right um that changed the original Greek text like John 1 it says in the beginning was the word and the Word was with God and the Word was a God not the

God U he was in the beginning with God through him all other things were created right and so they they changed the the person of Christ there they also M highly I know misinterpret the scriptures where it says that you know that in Thessalonians I think it says that Jesus Will descend with the voice of an archangel and the sound of a trumpet doesn’t say he is an archangel he say he will have the voice of an archangel right and so I these are passages that I talk to Jehovah’s Witnesses about but but the seven day events is they they don’t have another

Translation of the Bible or I wouldn’t even call it I wouldn’t call the New World Translation respectfully a translation I think it’s another I think it’s a perverted version of the Bible but the SDA people they you know SDA Church they had they read the Bible and so how do they justify Jesus not being the Eternal God but a created being Michael the Archangel how do they what how did they come to that to their understanding although most Adventists don’t use their version of the Bible Adventists do have a version of the Bible they’ve created whoa okay the

Clear word bible you can look it up online wow the clar word bible I’m going to look it up now written and published by the a Seventh Adventist Professor it is published by an official organ of the sth Adventist Church the review and Herald publishing associ Association and it is also used in the Seventh Day Adventist Church although not widely it is sold in Adventist bookstores all over the world as a Bible under the section of Bibles wow and when you read the Clare word version the Clare word bible of Adventist they do the very same things that Jehovah’s

Witnesses do in their Bible and so scripture is is is butchered reinterpreted distorted to agree with Seventh Day Adventist doctrines and teachings in their clar word bible are you saying that they that that they minimize Jesus for being the Eternal God and makes him and make him a God because I think people will hear you say that and me like what do you mean we do the same thing as Jehovah’s Witnesses because in the Bible when it refers to Jesus being God Almighty it clearly says that he is not God Almighty right and when you talk to Jehovah’s Witness they

Would Clearly say no we don’t believe that Jesus is God Almighty we believe that he is Michael the Archangel the Son of God that God was the first person that the first being that God created as a master worker to to create the heavens and the Earth and all the all of the things and so when you said that it does the same thing in which way does it does the same thing I just want to for clarity say for example if you read in the claric Bible of of Jude n Michael the Archangel is referring to Jesus um Ellen White has a lot of statements in which she say for example

The Lord Jesus Christ is not the Lord God Almighty and this is sacran teaching for the Adventist however you have to understand the way their mind work in terms of cognitive dissonance and the doctrine and theology whatever it is is very contradictory based on Ellen White’s writing so you you can always find quotes and statements and teachings from their propheus writings that support any position that you want to hold there’s a growing movement in adventism right now a growing Aryan antitrinitarian movement in seventh day adventism who are trying

To bring the Adventist Church back to their historical Roots based on what Len teaches and what the pioneers of the Adventist Church teaches and so while you have some who are trying to present themselves as as being Orthodox because they’ they they have adopted Orthodox language uh trinitarian language and and and the whole nine yards recall that Ellen White’s writings are authoritative they are used to to to filter scripture to interpret scripture to understand scripture and they are pushed at every level of adventism yeah so as you read scripture and as you read Ellen White’s

Writings you’re going to end up in this sort of confusing mess that you have and so yes you will see on their website and in a lot of their Publications they speak highly of Jesus they have high christology when you actually go down the rabbit hole and readen White’s writings and look at their Publications and what they also hold equally authoritative you’re going to find a confused mess as to who Jesus is in adventism so boom goes the dynamite first regarding the clear word many Adventists including these SDA critics of Christianity absolutely

Loathe when you say the clear word is the SDA Church’s Bible lots of Adventists commented on that video and took umbrage with this saying that’s false the clear word isn’t an official Bible it’s a paraphrase hardly anyone uses it Etc all the standard claims EJ said it’s sold under the section of Bibles this is correct says on their website AVST book centers the ABC it’s listed under Bibles with the others you click on Bibles and then versions and it’s listed like the rest of them furthermore I got to share my screen here

Notice this is an article on our site on the subject which hyperlinks you to primary source documentation and provides you with a thorough sourcing of examples where the clear word significantly departs from the Greek in the Hebrew text notice the article says in part though what is the clear word bible the clear word what we refer to as the Blurred word is the Seventh Adventist Church’s Bible paraphrase of the King James version by Jack Blanco that is marketed and sold by sth Adventist publishing houses as a sound and balanced Bible version Mr Blanco did not

Consult Hebrew and Greek manuscripts for his work but utilized an English translation and his own imagination that is influenced by Ellen White’s writings this is is evidenced by an interview he did with between the lines a media production of review and Herald publishing many Adventists have sought to distance themselves from this book and will be quick to claim that the clear word is simply a paraphrase and is not readily used by Adventists this is not true it is printed by the highest authoritative publishing arm of the organization review and Herald

Publishing which is the doctrinal stamp of approval within the organization it was originally published under the name the clear word bible which led to backlash and criticisms that pushed the organization to shorten the title to the clear word with the addition of the tagline in expanded paraphrase but even with this addition the introduction within the book still clearly positions it as a reliable Bible translation as we just looked at the book is also clearly listed and marketed in their book centers as a Bible and includes all the various versions that

They have adapted such as the clear word for kids Etc now notice some of the major textual changes including Jude n which is down here notice Daniel 8:14 their foundational text there it is in the King James and he said unto me unto 2,300 days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed look at the clear word the 2003 Edition yellow is the edition of words he answered after 2,300 prophetic days which represent actual years God will restore the truth about the Heavenly Sanctuary to its rightful place then the process of judgment will begin of which the yearly cleansing of the

Earthly Sanctuary was a type and God will vindicate his people Mr Blanco adds entire Concepts words and ideas to the texts that are informed by the great controversy worldview which undergirds their entire system of theology in this case the Assumption of the investigative judgment being what’s in view in the text there is zero reason from either an English translation or the Hebrew manuscripts to make such an addition here’s Jude n in the King James Yet Michael the Archangel when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses dur

Not bring against him or dared not bring against him a railing accusation but said the Lord rebuke thee the clear word in contrast to these ungodly men is the Lord Jesus also called Michael the Archangel for he’s over the entire Angelic host when he was challenged by Satan about his intentions to resurrect Moses he didn’t come at Satan with a blistering attack nor did he condemn him with mockery he simply said God rebuke you for claiming Moses’s body where’s the lie I I don’t see anything that EJ said that was misrepresenting or lying the organization called this thing a Bible

They got backlash for it so they’ve tried to do a bunch of PR and marketing to try to say no no no it’s just a paraphrase but they still list it and sell it like a Bible and yes many Adventists treat it like a Bible I know tons of people who were gifted this thing when they became an Adventist it was a part of their baptismal gift bag they were given a copy of the clear word I saw people growing up I had people around me that utilized the clear word I was recently listening we’re going to be responding to uh a a video some some months coming up and in preparation I’m

Listening to it and an Adventist was asked to read something by the individual we’re going to be responding to and they read the verse and the the Adventist Pastor said what translation is that and the guy said uh the clear word and he said somebody else read he just jumped away from it because the text didn’t say what he anticipated on hearing where was the LIE CMB where was the LIE there was n in Miles um I was uh just kind of writing in the chat here to uh Anthony um and some others like you know the clear word is a it’s a sick sick sick twisted thing um I say that with

Very uh with no with no apology you know um so and I’m in the middle of a move so it’s all packed up right now but I’ve done it before and showed it on camera before um so I have the first two um iterations of it and the newer Brown covered one the first first two ones have the um the rainbow uh looking uh cover on the on the uh the dust jacket cover right um and they have the first one says Bible of course clear word bible second one just says the clear word um and then with both of them some of the texts don’t even agree with one another you know um and and the example

I gave um for Anthony was like in Deuteronomy chapter 5 um when Moses is re re reading that’s what Deuteronomy means right the second reading of the law in Deuteronomy chapter 5 goes into some detail about the Ten Commandments okay and kind of restates the Ten Commandments there um and one of the things that he says is that you know that Moses starts off by uh reading here and he says that God did not make this Covenant here uh with our fathers but with us all of us who are here alive today right and it’s very uh redundant it’s very repetitive so that you know

That it is a covenant that is established at that time okay this is in Exodus right before they’re going across into the promised land okay now of course if you’re any been SDA for any length of time and you’ve read uh Patriarchs and Prophets or you’ve read anything else that the church has produced It produced you know um you know that the idea is that the Ten Commandments have been established from eternity past it’s transfered through God’s character all this and Adam and Eve were given it uh the Ten Commandments and all of the all of the um the Patriarchs uh were given it

Either orally or whatever the case was okay now um the scriptures does not teach that and the first iteration of the clear word Bible says it was not only given to our fathers and us right so what they’re trying to do is insert this idea that um The Ten Commandments specifically were given to and the law and the rest of the law anyway which they don’t want to acknowledge but um The Ten Commandments specifically were given to all of all of humanity that’s not what the text says in the the Hebrew at all okay so we’re getting to a situation where they’re lying on the

Text um they’re put they’re now placing um SDA interpretations specifically illen white interpretations um over top of it and again we’re seeing this have a great controversy theme is the theory of everything and he gets kind of uh just shoved over everything else you know um in that in that sense so you guys really need to check it out for yourselves go look at these things it’s uh it’s not the easiest thing to find the first version of it that says Bible on the front but it’s F it’s it’s discoverable put it that way I had to get mine on eBay um and pay 30 bucks for it but uh

Yeah you can find it yeah that’s good and they’re going to try to appeal I mean it’s it’s just so tiring it’s like on that then they’ll they’ll try and say well that’s what uh that’s what some of the reformers believed no the reformers weren’t saying the same thing you guys are they weren’t saying the 10 Commandments were given like they were at SI to Adam and Eve they were recognizing natural law it’s just I’m going to be doing a stream on on this subject here soon where again just showing why these superficial appeals that they make to other people

Just backfire on them because it’s like no they’re not saying the same thing you are and like CNB said it all goes back to the great controversy theme that’s what defines everything in this system EJ mentioned Ellen White’s Jesus is not the Lord God Almighty quote to which SDA critics of Christianity have sought to defend this a number of ways again notice an article on the answering adventism website is Jesus Christ the almighty God by way of both Ellen G white and the SDA Bible commentary volume 5 page 1129 in adamist theology Jesus isn’t the

Almighty God only the father is consistent with their teaching of the Kos heresy that Philippians 26-8 says that Jesus set his divine nature aside which we just saw earlier they teach that Jesus never truly gained back all of what was bestowed upon him in his pre-earth exaltation another heretical SDA teaching because of this alen white claimed that Jesus is not the Lord God Almighty SDA critics of Christianity need to update the article have tried a plethora of defenses to this but there’s no context in which it isn’t Blasphemous heretical and outside of the bounds of

Orthodox Christianity the three standard defenses have been one she was differentiating between Jesus’s human and divine Natures this is problematic because saying the man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty isn’t a proper way to distinguish between the two Natures of Christ both Natures are ascribed to the single person of Jesus what is called the communication of the attributes and the hypothetic Union in Christian theology this defense by SDA critics of Christianity creates a division within the two Natures such that the single person of Christ is not fully God and

Fully man the second defense she’s right you’ll get Adventists that say Jesus is not the almighty only the father is some Adventists agree with the statement and affirm that God the Father alone is the almighty some of these types align with the classical Adventist christology doctrine of Christ nature like the early SDA Pioneers that believed Jesus had a beginning and is not the Eternal God they were Aryan Heretics and three the other defense she was differentiating between Jesus and the father like with the first defense this also is not sound as this isn’t a valid

Differentiator between the father and the son the father son and spirit are all the One almighty God Adventist apologetic sites like Ellen white. info assert this defense they also wrongfully assert that Christians believe God is three distinct beings which is why they think this statement is perfectly fine this is most assuredly not what Christians believe trinitarians the historic Christian position believes God is three persons but one single being three beings would be three Gods person and being are not the same thing the problem is Ellen White didn’t

Distinguish between person and being so Adventists don’t either which is why they make a defense like this and don’t see an issue with the statement and then it goes on to a bunch of biblical evidence showing that yes Jesus Christ is most assuredly the almighty God where’s the LIE where’s where’s the lie so far I’m still looking and I don’t see any yet well we’re going to keep looking cuz crazy that’s crazy so man you you pretty much did a amazing job establishing this whole idea of uh the great controversy so the next thing we want to dive into um is investigative

Judgment and um that was a really really so you saw the guy on Twitter right uh and so he got like all these responses didn’t I send it to you and I I put it in the feed but the guy that was on Twitter them did you read it I saw Dr Eric Mason you had a question you want to ask yeah yeah yeah yeah so um the guy it was a guy on X that uh did a response to me just asking questions about different things particularly Archangel Michael but then also um uh investigative judgment uh number one do you believe the investigative judgment what is investigative judgment number one and

And why is it heretical and number number three uh how does it undermine just if by faith okay wonderful uh so the guy who did that response is Pastor Ty Gibson he’s a Adventist Pastor uh we would refer to him as a Neo Adventist uh answering adventism my Christian on YouTube he has a lot of videos and reaction and response videos yeah uh to him so he’s not a small fry he’s he’s one of the big shots of adventism you watch on TV and that kind of thing so when when I read his response he did not even begin to scratch the surface or to touch what the

Investigative judgment was all he did was to pull some judgment text of scripture scripture talks about judgment as if Christians don’t believe in judgment we believe in judgment and try to make it appear that this is the investigative judgment so what is the investigative judgment of adventism let’s go back to October 23 1844 they’re bitterly disappointed some of them are committing suicide kind of crazy things going on har some and another one is walking through the cornfield and he claims that instead of Jesus coming to the Earth to cleanse it

By fire he moved from the holy place of the Heavenly Sanctuary to the most holy place to begin a work of investigative judgment Ellen White then claims to have a same vision endorses what he says and then develops an entire system around this investigative judgment Doctrine M this Doctrine by the way is not held by any other Christian Church on Earth neither from the first century nor through to today Jews who would have read scripture the Old Testament for hundreds of years Daniel 8814 is where this Doctrine is based from they never never seen it so no other Christian

Church subscribes to nor derives the investigative judgment teaching from scripture this is uniquely Adventist and it it is based on the initial vision of ham Edson and then expanded and cemented by LG white their propes okay so EJ said Ty Gibson’s post on the investigative judgment was not accurate this is objectively true I saw so many Adventists ranning and raving about oh he just he really showed them and no he didn’t he didn’t he didn’t even get into like he didn’t get into any of the problematic foundational elements of the teaching that are necessary and not

Optional EJ said Ellen White endorsed H medson claims and Visions again this is facts this is from word to the little flock quote I believe the sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days is the New Jerusalem Temple of which Christ is a minister the Lord Shu me Envision more than one year ago that brother kroer had the true light on the cleansing of the sanctuary and that it was his will that brother C should write out the view which he gave us in the day star extra February 7 1846 I feel fully authorized by the Lord to recommend that extra to every saint

Close quote there it is he said no one else has ever believed this Doctrine before sdas this is also a fact and even admitted by the organization themselves over and over and over again we’ve looked at these I don’t know how many times Advent review in Sabbath heral May 5th 1932 when of their official organs quote the very fact that this Prophecy of the Three Angels messages covers the period between 1844 and the end of this age shows conclusively that this three-fold message of which the investigative judgment is a part is God’s special message for us at this

Very hour just as surely as we are living between 1844 and the coming of Christ just so surely may we know that this three-fold message of Revelation 14 6-12 is God’s presence Truth for this present time the time for this message is very definitively fixed to the present generation he who will receive this prophecy as given by Jesus Christ may be just as sure that this is Christ’s special message for us today as if Jesus were to appear in person and speak this three-fold Proclamation with an audible voice in harmony with this idea that this message is limited to the

Period between 1844 and the end we find that no one prior to 1844 had ever claimed to have given this three-fold message neither Luther nor Calvin not Knox Wesley Alexander Campbell or any other of the great lights of these times set up the claim that they were doing this predicted work of Revelation 14 6-12 if this work had been done by any of them they would have surely known it this prophecy of Revelation 14 6-14 does not and cannot refer to any proclamation of the Gospel in the days of the Apostles the early Christian fathers or the reformers of the 16th 17th through

18th centuries it is strictly a Last Day message applicable to those who live just before the return of Christ close quote I rest my case and then he said Ellen White didn’t originate any SDA doctrines but functioned as the one who cemented them in which we already saw earlier about her being that when we’re talking about her being clueless to the discussion and studies but then would be given visions and shown the proper interpretation which solidified that as the correct interpretation those are the SDA pillar doctrines gentlemen anything to add to

That before we listen to the next clip all right so this is what and and so defending it understanding it and explaining it can only be done with her writings wow what they have done though is that now that they believe it they hunt down proof text of scripture where it talks about judgment and that kind of thing to prove see this is the investigative judgment when that is not the case at all so here’s has a quote from her as to what that is and how it started she says and I quote attended by Heavenly Angels our great high priest enters the holy of holies and there

Appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of his ministration in behalf of man to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits so in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only case is considered as those of the professed people of God the Judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work done at a later time period so here’s essentially what this is in 1844 Jesus started this work of investigative judgment he starts with the generation

Of Adam he starts with all of those who would have died who had faith in in in God and beginning with Adam’s generation he minutely with piercing scrutinizing eyes go through all of their lives and details and splitting hears to see if they are safe to save if they have one known an unconfessed sin they can’t be saved and he goes from Adam’s generation through to the last dead Saint and then after that he moves on to the living now during this time period no no one knows if they are saved Advengers do not know if they are saved wow or will be saved until they pass the

Investigative judgment when Jesus returns here’s another quote from her um about this explaining what this is she says as the books of record are open in the Judgment the lives of all who have believed on Jesus they come and review before God beginning with those who first lived upon the Earth our Advocate presents the case of each successive generation and closes with the living every name is mentioned every case closely investigated names are accepted this is supposedly those who should be saved names are accepted and names are rejected when any have sins remaining

Upon the books of record unrepented of and Unforgiven their names are blotted out of the book of life and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God’s remembrance she also goes on to say that every record or every sin is dealt with with terrible exactness and scrutiny God minutely filters the lives of everyone who claimed to believe in him to determine if he can eventually save them so in this Doctrine no one is really saved you come into 7eventh day adventism wow W and then you now are in line to be processed through the

Investigative judgment so while this is going on now they also tie with this dead doctrine of sinless perfectionism where you have to work to become sinlessly perfect through obeying the HS and the myriads of Adventist rules Ellen White rues Sabbath keeping selling her books paying your tithe and becoming a vegan and a whole nine yards so that you may potentially pass the investigative judgment as as you can already hear this already contradicts the doctrine of justification by faith yeah because where they are concerned you you aren’t really saved all

Right he said Ellen White’s writings are necessary to understand the investigative judgment EJ were you lying I’m I’m still I’m still looking for where the truth will be yes and you’ve got the uh you’ve got the robotics going again but he said he’s still looking for where he was lying now notice we’re going to look at another clip here back to Walter Martin’s discussion on the John Ankerberg Show where he was pressing William Johnson on exactly this pay attention to the quote that Walter Martin reads and then the response that Johnson tries to give pay

Very close attention you just a moment ago you’re holding in your hand in fact what you urge us to accept the doctrine of the denomination go to that not to the individuals all right this is your Seventh Day Adventist encyclopedia IED Edition review and Herald publishing Association Washington DC published by your denomination okay it doesn’t go to your fundamental statement of faith it says quote the best presentation summary of SDA view of the investigative judgment in current Adventist literature is the chapter entitled the investigative judgment in the book The Great

Controversy by Ellen G white from which the following summary sentences were taken the encyclopedia goes to Mrs White to Define your Doctrine and yet you are saying that if we go and start citing Mrs White that Mrs White isn’t really the one that we should go to doesn’t the encyclopedia know who we should go to you publish it the encyclopedia is a publication of the review and Herald publishing Association brother we got a problem the problem is who speaks for you the the the fundamental beliefs are the basic statement of the church but that’s not what this says this says if

You want the investigative judgment you go to Ellen White that’s what it says and I think the problem that we’re running up against and I ran up against this in 1956 and in my research work up till that period of time there is genuine confusion because within seventh day adventism there is a hardcore of individuals who are determined to enforce the idea that anything Mrs White said is the spirit of Prophecy is the infallible inter ration of holy RIT they are going to live breathe eat sleep and die with it and I’ve got enough quotations now to fill a small volume on

The subject of contemporary Adventist leaders and Publications I don’t care what the statement of faith in your hand says if the practice isn’t there what good is it for me to do to talk about Christianity if I don’t live Christian well I dispute you on the practice and I think I know what’s happening I travel widely I visit the workers yeah I visit them too worldwide and I I think w we don’t see eye to eye on this right you have your sources of information I think I have reliable sources of information yes but your reliable sources are tempered by an important

Consideration that consideration is that the authority of the denomination dictates to you what you can and cannot say it does not so dictate to me scripture dictates to me Mrs White dictates to you that’s the problem remember I’m an editor of the church I’m not an administrator I know these people personally and they’re prepared to speak to me uh warmly and closely I know they are I your interpretation of the I’m not Challen I’m not challenging you in your honesty as a Christian I’m saying that you are between the Rock and the hard place because there’s enough statements

Authoritative statements to indicate that strong leadership in the denomination firmly intends to get rid of anybody as they have been consistently doing anybody who takes any view contrary to lmg whites very telling and speaks for itself William Johnson tried to appeal to the fundamental beliefs they were talking about the investigative judgment as if the fundamental beliefs are in contradiction to their own encyclopedia when no the reality is the fundamental belief is short and it’s easy for them to point to instead of having to defend the implications of the belief in actual

Practice because practically speaking that’s how she functions and as the quote said Ellen White is who informs the investigative judgment that’s why no one before them has ever come to this conclusion or interpretation exactly like EJ said yet again CMB anything to add to that before we go to the next

Claim you are muted friend yeah I’m sorry yeah sorry about that yeah I was just trying to fever you type this uh this response here um but yeah so uh for those who uh don’t really know what’s going on um this is a clip from the John anber show I believe that’s in the uh the description section right I got that on the show uh it’s actually on our it’s on our Channel but I pulled these clips from the video on our Channel okay cool no problem yeah so that’s uh what’s what’s going on here guys and like yes the the problem is um with uh Dr Bill Johnson now mind you this clip

Is from I think the show was aired in 1983 if I’m not mistaken so like um I’ll I’ll give a little bit of Grace okay what I will say is this um if you check out SDA Q and A Q in the the letter ERS the Ampersand letter uh symbol and a Q and A with Peter Dixon when he had uh Dr Johnson uh on the show and he asked them Point Blank Dr Johnson do you believe anything special happened on October 22 1844 the pause that he had after that yeah the silence was deafening you he knew that this is crap he knew it now the question is that since we’re talking about the stuff from from back in 83 is

Did he know back then and was he just defending the church was he just the company man that was next up right there because the uh uh the GC president at the time didn’t want to come or whatever you know I don’t know I’m not going to make a conjecture on that and say yes he did know and he’s lying or whatever the case is people grow people study people learn right but to say that this is all good this is correct in terms of what the scripture teaches and then going back to the initial question that you asked uh miles having the issue between the uh the the essentially a

Contradiction between uh the fundamental beliefs in the encyclopedia right then you know you’re on Shaky Ground right this just how it goes you can’t get around it and unfortunately you know the people and I know enough pastors related to some okay and know enough pastors friends with some roomed with some know back in the day at Oak whatever the case is I know enough of them and had enough conversations with people um took enough classes and stuff like that back in the day um to know that enough people know that something stinks in the kitchen they know yep well and the

Purpose of playing that too was to reiterate that this has been a long-standing claim EJ’s not the only one that’s been saying this this is not just pulled out of thin a and to hear Walter Martin all the way back 50 some years uh almost 50 years ago uh I guess 40 years ago um site from the encyclopedia back then that this Doctrine is Ellen White is is needed to understand this Doctrine which was a EJ’s claim so the encyclopedia back then was saying it we could look at I don’t know how many modern-day sources that are still saying the same thing you

Have to have Ellen White’s writings to understand this teaching the next thing he said he said the investigative judgment is done with scrutinizing detail and precision this is exactly correct first up Christ in his Sanctuary page 182 quote at the time appointed for theud judgement the close of the 2300 days in 1844 began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins all who have ever taken upon themselves the name of Christ must pass its searching scrutiny both the living and the dead are to be judged out of those things which were written in the books

According to their Works close quote signs of the times Ellen White July 31st 1901 toward the end of her life quote God’s law reaches the feelings and motives as well as the outward acts it reveals the secrets of the heart flashing upon these uh flashing light upon things before uh before buried in darkness God knows every thought every purpose every plan every motive the books of Heaven record the sins that would have been committed had there been opportunity God will bring every work into judgment with every secret Thing by his law he measures the character of

Every man as the artist transfers to the canvas the features of the face so the features of each individual character are transferred to the books of Heaven God has a perfect photograph of every man’s character and this Photograph he Compares with his law he reveals to man The defects that Mar his life and calls upon him to repent and turn from sin close quote so EJ mentioned as well s perfectionism being tied to this that’s what’s being put forward here we’re going to see more quotes on that in a moment but the investigative judgment will involve sins that would have been

Committed had there been opportunity but weren’t manuscript releases volume 12 so in this quote she’s responding to a gentleman that inquired with her about other people’s Sal salvation and sanctification and this was part of her response to him quote do not appeal to your own sympathies do not dwell upon what Brother Jay has done or has neglected to do humble your own heart before God you’re not to sit in judgment upon the case of others until you show greater wisdom in making straight paths for your own feet you may say does sister white think me all bad

No I do not but one blot upon the character one sin unconfessed and unrepented of will will close for you the gates of the city of God close quote a single blot upon the character or one single sin unconfessed and unrepented of will close for you the gates of the city of God you’ll hear some Adventist trying to defend this as only known sins that are knowingly being held on to but no she says a single blot on the character it’s not only a blot on the character if it’s known by you on top of that Israel had entire rituals to deal with unintentional sins

That were done in ignorance furthermore this quote has to be understood in total with what we’re about to see regarding their Doctrine on probation more of that in a moment once again testimonies for the church volume Five these are writings for those that do not know that are supposed to be divine instruction from God to the SDA Church quote not one of us will ever receive the Seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them it is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters to cleanse the soul Temple of every defilement then the

Latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the day of Pentecost close quote very clear you won’t get the end time seal of God if there’s one single flaw or stain on your character where’s the LIE where’s the misrepresentation there’s all this outrage this is one of those topics too that all sorts of Adventist and I get it that a lot of them may not be keyed in on this stuff I’m glad that we could catch up to speed but he didn’t misrepresent adventism he may have he may have have represented and maybe by misrepresented

CNB and EJ maybe some of these folks what they actually meant was well you are saying what Adventist Source material actually says but I disagree with the source material therefore representing because I disagree with the source material but a lot of times oh this is that Fringe real hyper conservative adventism Oh you mean consistent adventism in line with the sources yeah yeah know that’s that’s one thing um and you mentioned it earlier like in the very beginning uh of the stream miles you talked about this the uh you talked about the uh the Spectrum

You know of of people that are within adventism one of the uh people that we’ve talked about EJ in the past uh described adventism as an umbrella you know so everyone kind of sits under the umbrella um it’s like a big tent you know um and it’s really it’s a a circus at this point you know what I’m saying so get out of the tent you know um you don’t have to say stay in the tent anymore um the point being is that uh yes there are a lot of people who would call themselves you know conservative Adventists or liberal Adventists or uh I’ve heard this term recently in the

Last two years now gospel Adventist I didn’t know that was a thing before um and they’re trying to make themselves a little bit more um mainstream you know a little bit more in line with uh biblical mainstream Christian teaching which again should tell you that regular adventism is not regular Biblical teaching that should be the first thing if and and again one of the things that trips me out um to no end is that how many people in the comments and the Perry shows um and things that we’re talking about I’m proud to be an Adventist Christian I’m sorry

What yeah why why qualif you know why why do you need a qualifier I’ve never heard anyone introduce themselves as a Baptist Christian or a presbyterian Christian or uh or whatever you know what I’m saying you’re a Christian you’re a Christian as a Christian there are parameters that determine what Christianity is okay and I know there’s going to be another the ridiculous oh there’s there’s 30 million denominations or 30,000 or 40,000 whatever the number is right um and again it’s because because a lot of us never heard of the term primary and secondary Doctrine

Before yeah things that matter are the things that we agree on the things that don’t matter are the things we disagree on and we we maybe will worship in different places and different spaces because we just disre secondary issues it’s not enough to break Fellowship though when you have an issue with primary Doctrine like you should never be taught to think or feel that you’re saved when Christ said You’ passed from Death To Life John 5: 24 it’s a problem okay things like that need to be addressed problem first and first and foremost right and this is the the the

Thing that we talked about earlier these problems are what the the SDA organization is built on it is Shaky Ground it is a house of cards y’all need to recognize it and get out while you can yeah and we’re about to look at that quote too by the way that you’re where she claims you’re you shouldn’t be taught to ever think or believe that you’re saved that’s misleading so we will get to that in a moment for for those folks then EJ said Adventists do not know if they are saved ultimately because of sinless perfectionism so we’re going to get into that now CMB

Because this is facts notice what she said Christ object lessons page 155 quote Peter’s fall was not instantaneous but gradual self-confidence to the belief that he was saved and step after step was taken in the downward path until he could deny his master never can we safely put confidence in s or feel This Side of Heaven that we are secure against Temptation those who accept the Savior however sincere their conversion should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved this is misleading everyone should be taught to cherish Hope and Faith but even when we

Give ourselves to Christ and know that he accepts us we are not beyond the reach of Temptation God’s word declares many shall be purified and made white and tried Daniel 1210 Only He Who endured the trial will receive the Crown of Life James 1:12 close quote and here’s the defense they give for it this is from salvation Contours of AOS soteriology this is from within the last couple years modern Scholastic work written collaboratively by SDA scholarship this is from the chapter by SDA Theologian Richard D uh Davidson which is all about Assurance in

The investigative judgment that’s what the chapter is trying to address notice what he says quote I had been taught by Earnest and well-meaning but misguided teachers that we should never claim Assurance of Salvation one statement in particular was given to us to memorize those who accept the savior no matter how sincere their conversion should never be taught that they are saved it is tragic that the context of this passage was not recognized ah in this statement the author is warning against the erroneous belief of once saved always saved it does not teach that one could

Never have present Assurance of Salvation in the very paragraph is found the assurance that we can give ourselves to Christ and know that he EX accepts Us close quote same thing from Herbert Douglas in his book the heartbeat of adventism this is in the preface where he is explaining stuff to know before reading the book and one thing he says is this about Ellen White’s writings he says they talking about those that misunderstand Ellen White ignore immediate context in which any statement is made for example white said we should never be taught to say or feel

That we are saved but the context was meant to warn of the erroneous doctrine of once saved always saved that was and is pre prevalent amongst most Evangelical Christians close quote this is always the example that is used when trying to say that Ellen White’s always taken out of context I heard SDA professors talk about this quote and give that same defense when I was a student the issue is is we are talking about the bigger picture and this quote is merely a snippet into that this isn’t a one-off statement the problem for adventism is the system not merely one-off doctrines

In a vacuum no one is claiming the quote says Jesus doesn’t accept you like Richard Davidson tried saying notice that his defense folks doesn’t even address what said she says no matter how sincere your profession you’re never to be taught to say that you are saved because what they mean by salvation and saved is not what we are referring to that’s the issue here again is scaling the language barrier they’re trying to say when she says that she’s just saying that you shouldn’t be taught to believe that you are eternally secure that’s what they’re

Trying to plug in there but she uses Peter as an example to talk about how his downfall was Progressive and gradual therefore the same could happen to you because you’re not Beyond Temptation because also notice this in their system folks we’ve looked at this numerous times and done long systematic presentations on this great controversy page 623 speaking about during the investigative judgment quote now while our great high priest is making the atonement for us we should seek to become perfect in Christ ah what’s that not even by a thought could Our Savior

Be brought to yield to the power of Temptation Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold some sinful desire is cherished by means of which his Temptations assert their power but Christ declared of himself the prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me John 1430 Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory he had kept his father’s Commandments and there was no sin in him that Satan could use to his Advantage this is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in

The time of trouble close quote this is Crystal Clear she did not just teach wesleyian Christian Perfection like the scholars and Contours of aano ology TR claim very clearly here you must get to a totally identical condition of sinlessness that Jesus was in before probation closes and the time of trouble starts or Satan will get you through uh tempting you probation ends when the investigative judgment closes that’s when the time of trouble starts when Michael stands up in Daniel 12 and it’s going to take him seven days to get here after he does that and

That’s going to be the time of trouble that takes place Etc what did Ellen White say in Christ object lessons that we’re not Beyond Temptation which is why we aren’t to be taught that we are saved only an Adventist that claims to be uh perfectly sinless identical to Jesus could consistently claim that they are saved or have any sort of assurance in fact notice their own church paper the review and Herald December 10 1889 quote and Enoch walked with God and he was not for God took him Genesis 5:24 it’s only a short Journey to the Heavenly Hills Brethren if we walk with

God in John 15:10 Jesus tells us he kept his father’s Commandments he did not say I am trying to keep them but he says I have kept them so it is not enough that we try to keep the Commandments we must keep them the character of the Saints is not established by their failures to keep the Commandments of God but by their success in doing so those who simply try to keep the Commandments are moral cripples they do not walk with God they simply hobble along after him close quote you’re not even following after God ACC according to this unless you are

Sinlessly perfect perfectly in line with the propheus so this idea that they’ve changed adventism this new fresh thing they’ve left all the baggage behind no they are only kidding themselves they are kidding themselves this is foundational we could sit here all night on quotes on this topic again the same paper in 1976 almost a hundred years later this is them quoting Ellen White and the article’s title is Jes Jesus our example quote Christ overcame the temptation as a man every man May overcome as Christ overcame he humbled himself for us he was tempted in all points like we uh

Like as we are he redeemed Adam’s disgraceful failure and fall and was conqueror thus testifying to all the unfallen worlds and to fall in humanity that man could keep the Commandments of God through the divine power granted to him of Heaven Jesus the son of God humbled himself for us endured Temptation for us overcame in our behalf to show us how we may overcome he has thus bound up his interest with Humanity by the closest ties and has given the positive assurance that we shall not be tempted above that while we are able for with the Temptation he will make a way of

Escape close quote so again what did we see earlier in the quote about never being taught to say that you’re saved this is because you are never Out Of temptation’s Reach and until you get to a totally sinless condition you will always be in that position and here they reiterate that Jesus as the example came and showed that you can be as sinless as he was not only that but must be or you’re not even following after God you’re hobbling along like a moral and this is completely consistent with this system Jesus came to silence Satan’s accusations in the

Great controversy that the law can’t be kept Jesus proved it could and demonstrated to humanity and all the unfallen worlds that the law can be kept and those that achiev this with Jesus’s help they will demonstrate that they are safe to save because it’s only those who keep the law perfectly and silence Satan and vindicate God and the law that are determined safe to save why is that because they also claim that God has to see while you’re on probation that you can be trusted to not allow sin to enter again this is a core component of this whole system you can’t just shove this

You know you were mentioning gospel Adventists earlier that’s exactly what they try to do they try and and throw this out they try and well Ellen White wasn’t actually inspired she was just inspirational they try and do these sorts of things it’s like buddy that that is I’m sorry all the all your is I’m an inconsistent Adventist another quote Ellen White review and heral May 28 1901 quote God will test all even as he tested Adam and Eve to see whether they will be obedient our loyalty or disloyalty will decide our Destiny since the fall of Adam men in

Every age have excused themselves for sinning charging god with their sin saying that they could not keep his Commandments this is the insinuation Satan cast cast at God in heaven but the plea I cannot keep the Commandments need never be presented to God for before him stands the Savior the marks of the crucifixion upon his body a living witness that the law can be kept it is not that men cannot keep the law but that they will not close quote is that clear is that out of context too we need some assigned you know Adventist Handler to understand these

Statements you should only have the Adventist version of assurance if you are totally sinless the Adventist version of assurance is more like confidence you’re you weren’t assured of anything another Ellen White quote from sons and daughters which is a 365 book page 156 quote well man take hold of divine power and with determination and perseverance resist Satan as Christ has given him example in his conflict with the foe in the wilderness of Temptation God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan’s artifices man must work with the with

His human power aided by the divine power of Christ to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself in short man must overcome as Christ overcame and then through the victory that is his privilege to gain by the all powerful name of Jesus he may become an heir of God and Joint Heir with Jesus Christ this could not be the case if Christ Alone did all the overcoming man must do his part he must be Victor on his own account through the strength and Grace that Christ gives him man must be a coworker with Christ in the labor of overcoming and then he will

Be partaker with Christ in his glory close quote perfectly consistent with what she said in great controversy that we read and what EJ said in the interview you must labor alongside Christ to get to a totally sinless condition man must do his part and until you are Beyond Temptation you are not totally assured Assurance is not confidence folks it’s different Adventist can say they are all confident all they want people are confidently wrong all the time Assurance has to do with God’s ability his Mercy his goodness I am assured because Christ is a perfect

Savior yes we could keep going and going and going but her quote about not being taught to say that you’re saved is not only disagreeing with once saved always saved which is a very particular flavor by the way of security of one’s salvation not the only one she obviously disagreed with eternal security across the board but when looked at comprehensively you can’t have any Assurance in the Advent a system anything to add gentlemen sorry I know I I talked quite a bit there but I mean you didn’t say anything in this clip that was not in harmony with

Primary source documentation that is far more authoritative than any joeo 7th Day Adventist yeah um I I’ll just add this uh so going back to that quote that you mentioned about um you know showing that the the the law can be kept because Christ kept it that is again uh to me the way I look at it it’s really a demonstration of this diminished view of Christ that they have right um if Jesus is merely our example then he is a man who had the willpower and the power of the spirit and whatever else like that to do the works that will keep you safe right and

Eventually result in your salvation okay if he’s God it’s a different story okay um fully God fully man that’s what I mean there is um it you would have Jesus being our elder brother and all this kind of stuff here um the way that it’s portrayed is that if he can do it you can do it too he made the way for you to pick up the Baton to pass the Baton or whatever the case is you know he’s the second Adam you’re like the third or 35,000 at whatever whatever iteration is at this point model man theology right you know so you have this idea um and and it becomes now that you have to

Strive and we look at this earlier when we did our um or pillar Doctrine uh broadcast a while back you know uh we looked at these quotes from wager and Ellen White and all these other people that are talking about sinless perfection like it can be attained right meanwhile the scripture says that all have sinned and fall short of Glorious uh God’s God’s glorious standard all have sinned right 1 John verses uh 5 to9 will tell you uh 5 to 10 anyway will tell you that a person who says and verse 8 and verse 10 specifically person who says they don’t sin they’re a liar

Right they say they haven’t sinned let the truth’s not in them right so you have to recognize that you can’t both simultaneously break the law and keep the law at the same time can’t do that right the you know the the Rand the the favorite proof text is oh sin is transgression of the law okay so do you sin well yeah okay then everybody sins so if that’s the case everyone’s breaking the law how are you keeping the law if you’re breaking the law yeah they like try and short circuit salvation they like like like you mentioned all have sinned and what fall

Short of the glory of God so are you telling me that you now no longer fall short of the glory of God so you’ve been glorified we should have all sorts of Adventists all over the world who are already glorified right according to this quote there’s no one following God then unless based on that quote from the review in Herald in December 10 if you’re not keeping the Commandments just like Jesus did as perfect as Jesus did you’re not actually following God you’re a moral go okay well there should be millions of seventh day Adventists in the world then that are

Perfectly keeping the law if you’re perfectly keeping the law you’re not sinning anymore which means you no longer fall short of the glory of God so you’ve been glorified right but you could fall from that glorification you could be glorified but it you you haven’t well we could look at the quote which I don’t have it up tonight but Ellen White said basically until you pass through the gates you shouldn’t breathe the sigh of relief right so which is which is terrible you know yeah but adven will will hear these sorts of things go ahead EJ yeah let let me ask this real quick

For those who who like to say you know all of this misrepresentation they don’t believe they don’t teach this maybe have you gentlemen ever come across any official action of the FCA Church any official change uh press release uh broadcast doal ship anything where the SD hased and denounced and distan itself from and have now in standard Orthodox Christian teach okay I just want to make sure does it my research but that’s the standard narrative I’ve been that I’m misrepresenting and I’m lying because we don’t believe on teaches and that kind of thing so I wondered if that

Somehow slipp me along the way where the church did rounce these things but on what has been announced they have so for those who couldn’t hear him EJ you sound very robotic again you may want to to drop and join again but for those that that could not catch all that he said correct me if I’m wrong has the SDA Church renounced these teachings these statements these claims Etc and have I just missed it in my studies and the answer to that of course is no they don’t and we could look at statements from salvation Contours of aous soteriology which we were just citing

From supposed to be this new state-of-the-art you know staple work in the Adventist movement that if you really want to understand adventism you need to read Contours um it’s just a rehash of dimensions and salvation by Beach but nevertheless in there they have a chapter on this and they can try and wrap it up in all sorts of Flowery theological sounding language Etc um it doesn’t change the facts it doesn’t change the facts they can say total Victory um you know these sorts of of terms that they use and really when you get down to the Brass tax of it EJ the

Evidence that you know this is still being taught is that Adventist who argue this we don’t teach that and then you start whipping out sources like this then they’ll start defending it and say well if you don’t think that that Christ can truly free you from all sin then you believe in a weak Jesus well wait wait hold up hold up hold I thought you just told me you guys don’t teach this and believe this why did you argue that with me for 15 minutes to then just be like okay well okay we do teach that but if you don’t agree with it you have a weak

Jesus and then they’ll start defending it and start arguing for it so yes they still teach this right he mentioned the next thing that EJ mentioned was tithe and being a vegan are tied to Salvation in their system once again folks this is facts from chapter three or or or volume three of testimonies for the church on the chapter on systematic benevolence AKA TI first quote God calls for talents of influence and of me and of uh and of means shall we refuse to obey our heavenly father bestows gifts and solicits a portion back that he may test us whether we are

Worthy to have the gift of everlasting life close quote if you aren’t tithing you might not be worthy of eternal life another quote testimonies for the church volume four where she’s talking about the vows people take to become Adventists and how they were a fledgling movement financially at the time so she then lambas them and says this quote the plan of systematic benevolence was of God’s Own Arrangement but the faithful payment of God’s claims is often refused or postponed as though solemn promises were of no significance it is because church

Members neglect to pay their ties and meet their pledges that our institutions are not free from embarrassment if all both rich and poor would bring their tithes into the storehouse there would be a sufficient supply of means to release the cause from Financial embarrassment and to nobly car carry forward the missionary work in its various departments God calls upon those who believe the truth to render to him the things that are his those who have thought that to withhold from God Is Gain will eventually experience his curse as the result of their robbery of

The Lord nothing but utter inability to pay can excuse one in neglecting to meet promptly his obligations to the Lord indifference in this matter shows that you were in blindness and deception and are Unworthy of the Christian name close quote so she said Adventists that weren’t tithing to the SDA Church are withholding from God his portion and will eventually experience his curse upon them and are Unworthy of bearing the name of Christian AKA spiritual abuse by means of uh Financial manipulation if you don’t give it to them you’re stealing from God so give it

Over with regards to veganism quote the Apostle Paul exhorts the church I beseech you therefore Brethren by the mercies of God that you present your bodies a Living Sacrifice wholly acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service men then can make their bodies Unholy by sinful indulgences if Unholy they are unfitted to be spiritual worshippers and are not worthy of Heaven if man will cherish the light that God in Mercy gives him upon Health reform he may be Sanctified through the truth and fitted for immortality but if he disregards that light the light on health reform and

Lives in violation of natural law he must pay the penalty close quote so if you indulge in anything that goes against the health message you’re not worthy of heaven and won’t be fitted for immortality you are violating natural law because notice what else she said quote this is from evangelism page 265 God has written his law upon every nerve and muscle every fber and function of the human body the Indulgence of unnatural appetite whether for tea coffee tobacco or liquor is in Temperance and is at war with the laws of Life and Health by using these

Forbidden articles a condition of things is created in the system which the Creator never designed this Indulgence in any of the members of the Human family is sin the eating of foods that does not make good blood remember that is working against the laws of our physical organism and is a violation of the law of God the cause produces the effect suffering disease and death are the sure penalty of indulgence close quote so natural law is written upon every fiber of our beings and if indulge in anything that doesn’t make for good blood we are sinning and

Any sin upon one’s book will keep one from being saved quote meat eating deranges the system but clouds the intellect and blunts the moral sensibilities such a diet does what contaminates the blood and stimulates the lower passions it prevents Vigor of thought and enfeebles the perceptions so that God and the truth are not understood close quote now gentlemen maybe this is the reason that Ellen White couldn’t understand a lick of what they were saying when they were studying the Bible maybe she was justat because she was that it just blunted her her

Sensibilities to being able to understand the things of God maybe that’s what was going on there she says me contaminates the blood and anything that does so is sin and any sin on the books will keep you from being fitted for immortality and safe to save will the SDA Church organization say it that bluntly and plainly of course not we heard Ted Wilson in last year’s annual Council try and say we don’t teach that being vegan and vegetarian saves you right you just say it’s a condition for salvation and if you don’t meet that condition well you’re not fit

For salvation all who are truly following Jesus will be willing to give up meat to follow him which is what she says she says those that are truly waiting for the return of Christ we’ve looked at that how many times those who are truly waiting for the return of Christ will give up All Flesh food but at the end of the day it’s all word games nothing that EJ has said in this whole thing has been a lie not a single thing has been a lie you can’t be sure that you are saved right now and and the blood of Christ does not cancel your sin that’s another thing she

Says as well wow they stand there to witness against you and it’s when Christ processes processes you through the investigative judgment and he finishes that’s when you may possibly be saved so 1 John 5 11-13 you know what I’m saying these things are written to you who believe on the name of the son of God that you may know you have eternal life he who has the son has the life he who does not have the son does not have the life so basically there’s no sense of eternal security correct no none at all just believe by the way is fundamental belief number 24 in their official

Doctrinal statements that’s crazy and when you read it they goes through proof text of scripture and quotes from Ellen White yeah to defend this Doctrine all right EJ said sin is not canceled at the cross only after the investigative judgment this is a fact quote the blood of Christ while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law was not to cancel the sin it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent but it rested in the sanctuary

Until the day of atonement in the great day of final award the dead are to be judged out of those things which are written in the books according to their Works Revelation 2012 then by virtue of the atoning blood of Christ the sins of all the truly uh penitent will be blotted from the books of Heaven thus the sanctuary will be freed or cleansed from the record of sin close quote what EJ said is exactly correct again salvation Contours of aenos soteriology quote one of the most debated topics of Christian theology is expressed in these questions why the

Cross what really happened at the cross the answers to these questions have been widely debated under the the general heading of the atonement but when seventh day Adventists approach the matter of atonement an immediate dilemma is perceived when Adventists talk about atonement they refer specifically to what Jesus is doing now in the Heavenly Sanctuary on the other hand when Scholars outside the sth Adventist Church discuss the atonement they refer specifically to the cross of Jesus Christ and what God was doing there close quote when this organization uses the

Word atonement what EJ is describing is what they’re referring to this long drawn out convoluted mess the cross was simply an opportunity starter it was one step in their long drawn out seven steps through the sanctuary model where Jesus is going through all seven steps he came to our camp and all this stuff and remember this is entirely unique to them no one else in history was teaching this gentlemen anything else to add I’m sorry I’m talking so much here but it’s just like it’s just the facts this is just what the sources say he didn’t misrepresent

Anything I rest my case Dr Mason mentioned first uh 1 John 5:13 and possessing eternal life notice what Ellen White says utilizing that verse in the devotional Jesus name above all names okay

Notice so they quote she quotes first John 5:13 and it says the salvation of the Soul requires the blending of human and divine strength ah it’s just like the quote we saw earlier from Sons and Daughters God does not propose to do the work that humans can do to meet the standard of righteousness human beings have a part to act Humanity must unite and cooperate with divinity Grace and sufficiency have been abundantly provided for every soul but in order to receive this Humanity must Unite with his Divine helper unless their own accord men or yeah unless of

Their own accord men and women consent to renounce their sinful practices Christ cannot take away their sin human beings must hardly Co cooperate with God willingly obey his laws showing that they appreciate the great gift of Grace feeling their dependence upon God having faith in Christ as their personal savior expecting efficiency and success only as they shall keep the Lord ever before them it is thus that men and women comply with the injunction work out your own salvation with fear and trembling but human error is not or but human effort is not sufficient human

Effort avails nothing without divine power of themselves humans have not strength to wrestle with the power of Darkness therefore Christ clothed his divinity with humanity and came to this earth that he might cooperate with us to those who will receive him and Trust in his power to save he imparts the virtue of his righteousness he gives them power to become the sons of God as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name which were born not of blood nor the will of Flesh nor the will of man but of

God and the Word was made flesh and dwelt Among Us full of grace and truth and of his fullness have all we received and Grace for Grace the human agents must remember that they have in themselves no merits to present to God Christ is the Fountain of Life the only security for our Salvation the one great source of immortality he is the author and finisher of our faith the great grand work of perfecting character cannot be accomplished without the help that heaven is always ready to Supply close quote so in the system their concept of Union with Christ they prefer the

Language of abiding in Christ and one is abiding in Christ in the system when you are free of any known sins most will try and give a pass for sins that they are ignorant of despite God again requiring an entire ceremony for unintentional sins in the Old Testament but nevertheless remember what we read earlier about Temptation if you stumble the adven Jesus is no longer abiding in you he leaves you then come back to him to confess your sin for it to be transferred in type to the sanctuary building in heaven for the Adventist Jesus to deal with it after this now

You’re back to abiding in Christ until you’ve perfected your character which we saw earlier what is it as perfect as Jesus any character blots a single blot on the character you will remain in the state of limbo and yet Adventists will wonder why people leave their movement saying I never felt assured I’m not saying all people leave their movement do but whenever people do you get Adventists that try and act like specifically in Adventist leadership that try and act like well why why why what what could possibly have made you think that I don’t know your entire system of

Theology because the adist gods are impotent they have done all they can and they’re trying their best but at the end of the day it’s really up to you and you don’t know the future and according to people like SDA Theologian Richard rice who promotes open theism process theology that’s exactly correct the Adventist gods don’t know the future but that’s what Ellen White thinks is a fitting application of First John 513 to answer Dr Mason any thoughts to add to that

Gentleman I arrest my

Yeah I have a couple of just a couple more qu yeah so what would you say to the people who who say you know I’ve ran into I’m keep giving you know examples of other Faith groups that I’ve talked to just because I I I just heard a lot of questions and a lot of uh push back or whatever that you know what Charles T Russell taught in the 1800s he was just a man right uh you know uh what Joseph Smith taught in the 1800s he was just a Man U what LG like for the people who don’t believe that LG wh’s writing or whatever it’s authoritative and they don’t necessarily believe in the things

That you’re talking about right right now how is still being a part of the SDA Church problematic and and dangerous a good question um to Christians who feel like they hold to the true foundational beliefs of the Orthodox Christian faith that’s a very good question some of them especially those who are liberal sdas and those who are Evangelical laning sdas try to do that but it is still problematic because even though they may claim they don’t believe in Ellen White they don’t read her writings they don’t care about what she has to say but at the same time the very foundation on

Which they stand is Ellen White whether is directly or indirectly you cannot Escape Ellen White in Adventist theology worldview denomination and lifestyle yeah so even though they may claim to reject her and don’t pay any attention to her what they are embracing about the Sabbath is Ellen White their view of of Christ of the Trinity is Ellen White their view of of of dietary matters is Ellen White their view of of of of Christian churches that worship on Sunday are doing something wrong and are sinful and are in line for the mark of the beast is Ellen White but

Last all right gentlemen somebody rejects Ellen White but they’re an Adventist CNB why are you gonna say adventism still dangerous we heard EJ give some of his reasons there why is being an Adventist still dangerous even if you saywell I reject Ellen White maybe you’re a gospel Adventist um a great question so um actually when I before I left 7 Day adventism it took me about four and a half going on five years uh to leave fully right um so um yeah about four about four four years in change but the point being was that while I was wrestling with all the stuff

Um it got to the point where I couldn’t hold on to a lot of the the pillar doctrines as such right I didn’t Ellen White I had enough problems with Ellen White I had enough problems with some of the other doctrines um Alexander Wade in the uh sh uh chat shout out to him uh mentioned the scapegoat Doctrine which is coming up later I believe as well um so those kinds of things popped up and I had to leave now mind you I hadn’t left yet um I was still participating in church still doing the thing whatever the case was and I realized that if I believe that most of the stuff is wrong

Here right this is 20 plus years ago at this point I believe most of the stuff is wrong why in the world am I still supporting this church with my tithe my offering my uh my talents any gifts I have any uh abilities I have you know whatever the case is in order to further quote unquote the doctrine why would I do that right um so if you’re in church a gospel Adventist or whatever the case is and you don’t agree with these things um some people e and listen I’ll even go further even if you are an anti-trinitarian if you’re one of those weird offshoot cult culty extra culty

People whatever the case is is matter why are you still there that’s the question that you have to answer and to be perfectly honest I think a lot of people like to feel a little safe right you’re in the organization it’s a worldwide organization there’s 20 million members okay whatever right but a bunch of people go to church uh in this uh this uh denomination quote unquote um and a lot of people like to feel safe like they’re doing something right or just in case so a lot of people will leave the church and be like well you can’t really get away from

Everything that the church teaches why just in case because you’ve Associated your salvation with the people who claim to be the remnant Church of Bible prophecy right so it’s best sometimes for a lot of people not every person of course uh everyone has different experiences but for a lot of people they stick around and be safe within adventism right but for me it got to the point where um I just couldn’t do it anymore and the last thing that pushed me out the door was when we were talking about um law and Grace and how want to saved and folks kept pushing the idea of

Um commandment keeping and this that third specifically the uh Sabbath keeping um at South ific and uh when I asked the pastor that of the church I was with at the time and he said no that’s not correct but that’s what we teach that was the last thing that pushed me out the door you know so everyone has their breaking point for whatever the case is but yeah you can’t stay you just can’t yeah it’s like adventism is still dangerous even if you reject Ellen White the investigative judgment Etc because again to reiterate like in the beginning adventism is a distinct and separate

World view that the entire system is filtered through the entire system not just well only the beliefs that I reject those are the problematic ones no all of them are friend all of them because every single Doctrine and teach teing even if it’s something that others hold to such as the Trinity they mean something entirely different by the same word it is like this for all of their doctrines the Sabbath the law the Lord’s Supper salvation gospel everything and it scrambles people’s minds leaving them worse off than had they never been infected with the great controversy

Worldview I don’t care if it’s your Tai Gibson Tim Gillespie Neo Adventist or your Dennis prie Steven bour last generation the theology conservative Adventists they all share the same worldview and they promote teach and preach this worldview some of them just have put it in a different packaging on the Shelf so it looks new and modern and fresh Etc it’s the same old product as the other one sitting next to it if you are an Adventist and you think the Adventist teachers that you sit under do not possess this and teach from this lens I am sorry friend you have

Been Ned you have probably already adopted this the lens yourself this is what you are trained to do in Adventist ministerial education just ask EJ they often brag about sending their Scholars to non-adventist schools but this isn’t for the sake of learning the theology to then come back and teach it they aren’t sending their Scholars to baptist and reformed and Lutheran seminaries to learn their Theology and teach it it is to heed Ellen White’s advice to try and Bridge build to try and make inroads with Christian ministers to evangelize them and spread their novel Three Angels

Gospel message these same professors and theologians come back to the Adventist world and continue teaching and preaching the great controversy worldview notice testimonies for the church volume 6 page starting on page 77 quote we have a work to do for the Ministers of other churches God wants them to be saved they like ourselves can have immortality only through faith and obedience we must labor with them earnestly that they may obtain it God wants them to have a part in his special work for this time the Three Angels messages he wants them to be among the

Number who are giving to his household meet in due season why should they not be engaged in this work our ministers should seek to come near to the Ministers of other denominations pray for and with these men for whom Christ is interceding a solemn responsibility is theirs as Christ Messengers we should manifest a deep Earnest interest in the Shepherds of the flock close quote this is the sort of thing that’s going on these ministers are only saved in ignorance and sdas are to take this alleged light to others if they reject it they will not be lost or or if they

Reject it they will be lost and they aren’t benefited by Jesus’s mediation only if you believe this teaching or you’re ignorant of it will such be the case notice Christ in his Sanctuary page 160 quote it is those who by faith follow Jesus in the great work of the atonement who receive the benefits of his mediation in their behalf remember what they mean by the word atonement while those who reject the light which brings to view this work of ministration are not benefited thereby the Jews who rejected the light given at Christ’s first Advent and

Refused to believe on him as the savior of the world could not receive pardon through him when Jesus at his Ascension entered by his own blood into the Heavenly Sanctuary to shed upon his disciples the blessings of his mediation the Jews were left in total darkness to continue their useless sacrifices and offerings

The ministration of types and shadows had ceased that door by which men had formerly found access to God was no longer open just noticed I have a uh the wrong slide there this is the right one for that one sorry folks the ministration of types and shadows had ceased that door by which men had formerly found access to God was no longer open the Jews had refused to seek him in the only way whereby he could then be found through the ministration in the sanctuary in heaven therefore they found no communion with God to them the door was shut they had no knowledge of Christ

As the true sacrifice and the only mediator between go or before God hence they could not receive the benefits of his mediation the condition of the unbelieving Jews illustrates the condition of the careless and unbelieving among P Christians who are willingly ignorant of the work of our merciful high priest in the typical service when the high priest entered the most holy place all Israel were re were required to gather about the sanctuary and in the most solemn manner humble their souls before God that they might receive the pardon of their sins and not be cut off

From the congregation how much more essential in this antitypical day of atonement that we understand the work of our high priest and know what Duties are required of Us close quote so Jesus’s mediation for you depends upon you accepting this teaching or being ignorant of it because if you reject it after hearing it you’re willfully ignorant supposedly and this is only a scratching of the surface as to why this movement is theologically dangerous if you are in Advent but reject this Doctrine the official sources of authority within the organization state that you aren’t even

Benefited by Jesus’s mediation you’ve been taught this Doctrine if you’re part of the organization you’ve had this light from God revealed to you and you’re rejecting it so you’re lost furthermore to reject Ellen White is also to reject that the SDA church is the remnant which we talked about earlier and is a part of fundamental belief number 18 which says that’s supposed to be the identifying Mark I mentioned that we were going to look at a quote of what happens when you remove Ellen White which is what EJ was talking about earlier the challenge that he’s

Put out there GI Butler review and Herald supplement August 14 1883 quote our position on the testimonies that’s Ellen White’s writings is like the Keystone to the arch take that out and there’s no logical stopping Place till all the special truths of the message are gone our enemies and the master they serve realize this but some of our people are so blind that they do not close quote conference president folks did he not accurately understand Avan theology is this statement wrong does the Adventist Church now repudiate and denounce this of course

Not because you can’t change something that’s a keystone and Adventists that reject Ellen White are so blind they can’t see it according to him his words not ours this was during the the tumultuous time of them trying to figure out the role of Ellen White within the movement which came to a head up in 1919 and after but rejecting Ellen White and the investigative judgment as an Adventist is to condem D demn oneself according to the primary source documentation which carries far more Authority than any individual Pastor or local SDA Church yes it is dangerous to answer Preston’s

Question it get out if you are an Adventist you need to get out it is time to flee from this organization thing man um I wanted to discuss because I think this is um this was disturbing to me um it was very very disturbing uh and that is the scapegoat theology their scapegoat theology H in with the investigative judgment so they believe that when Christ would have finished his intercessory work in heaven he’s going to be returning and at that time now he’s going to cease interceding for Adventist so they have to stand before God without a mediator while he’s on his

Way and they would have to have been sin as the perfect then and so when he comes he’s actually going to take all of the sins of God’s people that Satan would have caused them to commit and then he places them on Satan who is going to Bear them and so let me read a quote from her where she says exactly this and what they do after this now is just rework it in Scripture so they go to Leviticus chapter 16 and they say see one goat is for the Lord that was killed and sacrificed the other goat that bears the sins away as AEL it is Satan so Satan is the scapegoat he is the sin

Bearer so let me read a quote uh from her and of course they they adhere to a lot of the Jewish folk law and myth around Azazel in the anci naries period and some reformers who would have made statements along that line to try to justify it but if you notice today though as Scholars Christian Scholars continue to study you will not find any Christian Church that holds to Satan being the scapegoat when they understand uh the typology in Leviticus chapter 16 and then what scripture says in Isaiah 53 Peter and many other places about Jesus and the whole process of

Atonement the day of atonement one go died for the sins and the other on which the s were uh was was placed was for expiration the removal of the sins from among the people and this is a beautiful picture of what Jesus did as the sinless sacrifice he vicariously dies for us and he’s the one who Bears our sins but because of what Ellen White says and what she says is infallible it is sacran they cannot Embrace that Jesus is the scapegoat so they have to hold on to Satan being the scapegoat here’s what she says this is from the Great controversy it was seen also that while

The sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator the scapegoat typified Satan the author of sin upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will be finally placed when the high priest by virtue of the blood of the sin offering removed the sins from the sanctuary he placed them upon the scapegoat when Christ by virtue of his own blood removes the sins of his people from the Heavenly Sanctuary at the close of his ministration he will place them upon sin who in the execution of the Judgment must bear the final penalty the SK was

Sent away into a land not inhabited never to come again into the congregation of Israel so will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and his people and he will be blotted out from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners wow and this is coming from the great controversy page 422 paragraph 2 and throughout their theology up to 1897 white was saying Satan is the scapegoat but interestingly in 1897 as she would have read more Christian authors and Orthodox authors because she did a lot of plagiarizing too she flip-flops on this and say it’s

Actually Jesus who’s the scapegoat but the Adventist Church cannot and will not accept that later statement because the prior saten is the scapegoat is everywhere else and so she contradicts herself on it by the way but they continue to argue it because it doves still in well with their investigative judgment and Theory so what are you saying are are you saying that that SDA today wildly accept that J Jesus is Jesus is not the scapegoat but but they stick to lmg’s LG White’s original statement by Satan being the escap skapegoat is that is that what

You’re saying absolutely got absolutely wow it it does not matter how many evidence you present that Jesus is the scapegoat he’s the S beer the day of atonement it was one sin offering both animals had to be spotless and unblemished and both goats represent one sacrifice one died and one took away the sins it’s it’s it’s it’s different sides of the same coin it doesn’t matter how much you present that even Colossians 2:16 and 17 is is Crystal Clear when it says don’t let anyone judge you on Festival New Mo or Sabbath these are shadow of things come but the substance

Is Christ Festival New and Sabbath is referring to the Old Testament feast days and the day of atonement is a festival yeah and the text makes it clear that it’s a shadow of Christ yeah everything about it is a sh is a shadow of Christ but they will reject that when you look at what the scapegoat is it was an innocent victim that suffered for the guilty that took the blame of punishment of the guilty and that’s what Jesus is they will they reject everything and they were go on for hours Pastor ianas who who declined joining the conversation he did a video wow not too long ago and

He’s going I was trying to justify the scape goat is Satan and not Jesus wow they’ll go through whatever Hoops they have to because again they have to be true to what Ellen White says that Satan is the scapegoat and not Jesus and they ignore the implications of it w that it’s Blasphemous it’s it’s horal it puts Satan again like Michael the Archangel and Lucifer the Archangel on equal footing just as how you need Jesus to die for the sins on the day of atonement the scapegoat has to take them away yeah if one die and the other doesn’t take it away there is no forgiveness of sin

There’s no salvation they don’t understand that they will not accept it when you study scri yeah that’s CRA and the rest of scripture that’s what it is that’s crazy because it seems like across the board go through hoops yeah it seem like across the board they just undermine christology all right final clip there EJ said you have to stand without a mediator and have to be sinlessly perfect this is facts Christ in his Sanctuary page 153 quote those who are living upon the Earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above or to

Stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator their robes must be spotless their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling we’ve already talked and looked at a little bit of that earlier but it’s far more exhaustive than what we looked at through the grace of God and their own diligent effort we also saw that they must be conquers in the battle with evil we also saw that while the investigative judgments going forward in heaven while the sins of penitent Believers are being removed from the sanctuary we already saw that there is to be a special work

Of purification of putting away of sin among God’s people upon the Earth this work is more closely or more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14 close quote so this is tied to the vision Ellen White was supposedly shown which we’ve looked at before with regards to the Adventist Jesus taking off his Priestly garments and putting on his kingly garments he isn’t a king right now when he does this he will cease functioning as a mediator and a high priest and then at that point will assume the role of a king and judge and notice here it’s your garments must be

Spotless it isn’t Christ garments given to you which is spotless and unstainable often times when you hear them talking about end times and Jesus’s robe of righteousness and all this sort of stuff no what she says here is that your robes so Christ robes apparently become your robes but then you can stain Christ robes and now you have Christ robes that you’re wearing are apparently stained that’s what you’d essentially have to say here but the investigative judgment in that model you were on probation of which she also had this to say quote sons and daughters again page nine we’re

Not to settle down expecting that a change of character will come to us by some miraculous work when Jesus shall appear in the Clouds Of Heaven with power and great Glory no my young friends we are judgment bound and probation is granted to us here in this life in order that we may form characters for the future Immortal Life close quote glorification in adventism will only be getting a different body probation right now is for you to develop a sinlessly perfect character with Jesus’s help and once probation closes and the investigative judgment

Ceases the time is up and your character is locked in Jesus will then cease mediating and the time of trouble will start and like we saw earlier in great controversy page 623 you will have to be in an in in an identical condition to Jesus with regards to sinlessly to being sinlessly perfect otherwise you will fall under the pressure in Temptation and won’t make it gentlemen where was the lie that Jesus is going to cease functioning as a mediator it wasn’t there with regards to Jesus placing the sins of the penitent on the scapegoat in conjunction with great

Controversy page 422 notice 422 is what he read quote in the in the typical service talking about Leviticus 16 the high priest having made the atonement for Israel came forth and blessed the congregation so Christ at the close of his work as mediator again there it is he ceases as a mediator will appear without sin unto salvation Hebrews 9:28 to bless his waiting people with eternal life as the priest in removing the sins from the sanctuary confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan the originator

And instigator of sin the scapegoat bearing the sins of Israel was sent away unto a land not inhabited Leviticus 16 22 so Satan bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit will be for a thousand years confined to the Earth which will then be desolate without inhabitant and will and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the FI in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked thus the great Plan of Redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the Deliverance of all who have been willing

To renounce evil close quote again she says Christ will ceese functioning as a priest contrary to Hebrews 7 and the Psalms and at the close of the investigative judgment the Adventist Jesus will take the sins of those who made it through the investigation and Vindicated God by keeping the law perfectly and their sins will then be transferred from the sanctuary and placed onto Satan because he allegedly caused everyone um who sinned to do so making Satan a part of the guilt offering for sin which is Blasphemous notice two what does she say about

Eternal life and how does it fit with what we saw earlier with regards to 1 John 513 eternal life will be given at that point it’s after you have passed the investigative judgment by getting to a totally sinless condition vindicating God and the law by silencing Satan only after one does this with Jesus’s help and only then will one have eternal life EJ where did you lie where where did you misrepresent anything I I am here still trying to find it oh for some reason we can’t hear you even though you’re not muted yet I wonder if your headphones actually

Died strange no worries we’ll Circle back around to you if you need to uh plug those in and charge them for a sec or maybe you can you can use it without but he also said Ellen White contradicted herself and said that Jesus is the scapegoat again this is facts quote some apply the solemn type the scapegoat to Satan this is not correct he cannot bear his own sins at the choosing of barabus pilate washed his hands he cannot be represented as the scapegoat the awful cry uttered with a hasty awful recklessness by the Satan inspired multitude swelling louder and

Louder reaches up to the throne of God his blood be upon us and upon our children Matthew 27:25 Christ was the scapegoat which the type represents he alone can be represented by the goat Born Into the Wilderness he alone over whom death had not power was able to Bear our sins close quote the defense of this being that this was never public therefore that somehow invalidates it being a contradiction but again what he said was exactly correct He also mentioned the scapegoat being an innocent picture taking punishment for the guilty exactly correct and the SDA

Position hinges on the scapegoat representing responsibility a few weeks ago we looked at this with Steven bour and in the clip where he talked about this he said the scapegoat represented responsibility he said it’s about six times in like a three-minute clip he just kept asserting that saying that saying that saying that I challenge any Adventist in the world to show us from scripture where responsibility is in view in Leviticus 16 with regards to the scapegoat where’s it at show us this from the text that is foundational to their position but it’s not there that’s not

The purpose of the scapegoat notice El Michael Morales from his book who will Ascend the mountain of the Lord which is a Biblical theology textbook on Leviticus notice what the professor says quote the scapegoats role should be understood in conjunction with that of the goat that is sacrificed as an elimination right the azazil goat ritual is often probed in isolation from a redactional and or compar ative religion approach within the context of Leviticus 16 however the right is fully integrated as part of one complete ceremony Associated particularly with the young goat that is

Sacrificed for example while two Rams are also used on the day of atonement as uh as Ascension offerings for the Priestly house and for Israel respectively yet these two animals are not brought together in the same fashion as are the Two Goats the text is quite careful to portray the goats as a set the high priest takes them both from the congregation of Israel presents them both together before Yahweh at the door of the tent of meeting and then cast lots for them both the instruction for the high priest in Leviticus 165 moreover refer to both goats together as

A single purification offering to be sure the expulsion right is not an offering in the technical sense nevertheless in removing sin the scape goat’s function fits the precise significance of sin as purification and com and combined with the blood manipulation of the sacrificed goat completes the picture of atonement indeed there is historical precedent for understanding these goats to be identical in appearance and chose expressly because of this likeness as if it were one goat accomplishing two aspects of atonement purification and experation cleansing from sin’s

Pollution and the removal of sins guilt close quote that is what’s going on in Leviticus folks that is what’s going on in Leviticus Ellen White had no clue what she was talking about and their entire position rests on the scapegoat representing responsibility for sin when the text says nothing nor alludes to such an idea gentlemen anything you have to add before we close things out here I know it’s been long but I counted about 500 for 500 I didn’t see a single thing that you said that was incorrect EJ you’re still uh for some reason your audio is still

Muted even though your mic is muted maybe you can still try to figure that out CMB what anything closing thoughts before we get out of here because yeah he didn’t misrepresent anything no he didn’t I I can hear you EJ you can’t hear him miles miles can you hear uh EJ not hearing me I can hear you just fine yeah oh you can hear me now yeah I can I don’t think Miles can oh I don’t know why but anyway um the critics recently did a video just maybe two yesterday or day before and is the same old same old argument same old you know whatever but as we’re seeing here from what the

Scholar Morales presented is exactly what we’ve been saying all along it is one ritual it is one offering it is one sacrifice that is a set of complete package that depicts atonement for God’s people there and so there is no way that Satan can be the scap go that is a part of the atonement process

Okay um I don’t know what happened with Miles um but I’ll just say this much as well um part of the problem is that you know the the usual um defense is that one goat dies and the other one lives well they take a strong man they need to take a half a strong man bring it out the the live goat out into the wilderness right and I was saying it from before it’s not like they he’s on going on vacation or anything of that nature he’s going out to the Wilderness to die right so and he’s and mind you he’s bearing the sins as he goes out to the Wilderness so if you’re gonna say that

Satan is the scapegoat right um so our SDA friends he is now bearing the sins of the people and he’s going to die and funny enough he dies last so does the scapegoat then bury your sins and die for your sins you have to answer that question so something to think about guys yeah I’m not sure where is at actually

Excellent perhaps you could try text him to see what happened because um he has the master controls and so he would have to be the ah there he is good good okay he’s back can you hear us bro yeah for some reason I can’t hear you guys but um I was able to hear on my phone which is off to the side so I could still hear what you were saying but for some reason I can’t hear through my speakers or my headphones but I did hear what you said and I completely agree um this whole thing just completely Fizzles apart again I I just I always go back to responsibility

Responsibility the claim is responsibility is typified in the scapegoat no it isn’t and their whole Theory hinges upon that that whole thing completely uh causes it to foil and fall apart gentlemen again thank you so much for being here I know it’s been almost four hours I think this is our longest stream to date the three of us together so it was necessary though because again who was misrepresenting folks who was misrepresenting things is it egyp J who just made up a bunch of things and has no clue what he’s talking about even though the mountain of primary source

Documentations that actually hold a level of authority are all on his side or is it the individuals who went online and said we were never contacted about this oh you have a bad Spirit that’s why we’re Yeah okay or is it the people who the Adventist Church doesn’t teach that my pastor never said that no one’s ever no no sorry it’s either you’re ignorant of the sources you’re unaware which is why you think he’s lying or you’re being deceptive and dishonest no other options gentlemen any final thoughts that the both of you have before we shut things

Down all I gotta say is the fox spoke for themselves and I thank God that they are there and we were able to carefully go to them so that people can see for themselves other than that I love you two brothers and it’s always good discussing these things with you both man love you too bro um and what I would say for uh final words uh for myself is like you know listen man um just because it’s new to you doesn’t mean it’s true to you what do I mean by that um a lot of people will hear something and be like well I’ve never heard that before therefore it’s wrong

You know you can find multiple um iterations of or not iterations but conversations on the l&g white websites and that exist and that will tell you that part of the thing is with her writing so much and the work so voluminous if you can say that right it’s hard to know everything that she says okay we understand that the problem is that those things that create this uh this great controversy worldview and it is a worldview right those things that do that and the the things that are foundational to the great controversy worldview are anti-christian and

Anti-gospel it’s just that simple that’s what the issue is we’ve had some people in the chat tonight that been saying that we’ve been hating and we’ve been bashing and all kind of stuff right here this is we’re reading the stuff that she said we’re reading the stuff that GI Butler said General conference president we’re reading the stuff that you know um that uh Crower wrote about and other people wrote about you know other Pioneers wrote about stuff like that right this is what this is what makes adventism take and if you don’t like it then you need to do your research about

It and then for those who do understand what it means and do understand the implications and refuse to teach it because it’s crazy you need to speak up the problem is that we have this and I’m going to use a a a a psychological term here um it’s a constant future faking okay oh the church is gonna change from the inside no it is not all right the reason that it cannot change and will not ever change is because Ellen White said so look up what the words uh the term um Omega of apostasies means okay she said with no uncertain terms poisoning the well one of the last

Things before the end of time was that the uh that people will undermine and I’m paraphrasing right now the people will undermine the uh uh the the the the belief in the testimonies and then after that that’s when Satan’s goingon to come in and impersonate Christ and after that that’s when the end’s going to come so when people see people like EJ people like uh mil and people like uh test the prophet and people like solo scripture at 21 and people like Dr Mason and the Perry and all these other people um and so many other people online uh the rats

Laughs and the former Adventist fellowships Jim bab you name them off the reason when all this stuff’s pops popping off now people are saying oh we’re under attack it’s the last days Ellen White was right or maybe we have more access to information that we can gather once uh uh at the click of a button or two and read it all together maybe just maybe people have a better understanding of the Greek and the Hebrew and the Aramaic than what they had in the 1800s and can realize and see and access to culture and all this other stuff and see what is

Being uh purported and ProMag by the SDA church is not correct maybe we can just see that oh there was a all the things that we talked about for however long on this channel and other channels that um culturally speaking there was a extreme High bias against um the Roman Catholic Church I’m not a I’m not caping for the the the the the RCC I’m not I’m not a Roman Catholic apologist I’m not a Jesuit spy I’m not an agent of Satan I’m not any of that stuff I’m not in the pay payroll okay however sometimes you have to look at things objectively and be like is this

Really what the scripture is talking about got this guy in the chat talking about the investigative judgment in Daniel 7 no it’s not there it just isn’t there’s judgment there but not what the SDA Church teaches okay and you can look out throughout the whole entire book and we have this nasty habit of the Seventh Day Adventist or as an organization maybe not you personally but as an organization inserting itself into the scripture where it doesn’t belong right oh of course we have the spirit of Prophecy it’s right there in Revelation 19 verse 9 9 and 10 that’s

Not you you that’s not her I’m very sorry if this offends you or whatever the case is but truth is truth Point Blank period end the story it’s not going to be pretty and when we are what we’re asking you to do well what I’m asking you to do I’ll speak it for myself what I’m asking you to do is think just look at it objectively and think I know what you were taught I was taught the same thing just think about it read it and then compare it to what was been handed down for almost 2,000 years before someone followed William Miller and thought he was

Correct what did this mean prior to that go back to the if you have the ability and the capability to check the Greek and the Hebrew and the aramic and whatever else right go ahead and do that if you can’t read it in English or your or your preferred language or whatever the case is and look at the metan narrative the big picture and you tell me that Ang this crap belongs there it doesn’t it cannot stand against scrutiny and that’s just the way that it is I’m very sorry so it’s a paradigm shift it will it will it will it will it will rock your world but the thing of it is if you are

Seeking truth and seeking after Christ you’ll find him he says I’m calling you he’s drawing his people out day by day and it’s not because we hate y’all we don’t have anything to do with this we can get hit by a bus tomorrow but people are being drawn out of this organization because they’re seeking the truth and the Lord is revealing himself to these people the Lord is showing these people the church has been behaving badly for a very long time they had a chance to course correct and they refused and time’s up get out while you can so sh your faith is not Shipwrecked

That’s all I got for you I love you with the love of Christ even if I disagree with you and I’m out peace