Fact-Checking Two Neo-Adventist Pastors: Is Adventism A Cult? | Ty Gibson & David Asscherick

Well hey there thank you for being here especially if this is your first time with us Adventist or otherwise so recently someone sent me a video from the Neo Adventists Ty Gibson and David Aster where they were taking audience questions one of them had to do with asking how to respond as an Adventist to podcasts that label adventism as a cult something this platform has very openly done now the picture in many people’s minds when they hear the word cult is often influenced by pop culture for a lot of people they have an image in their mind of some crazed leader that’s

Convinced people to lock themselves in a secluded area with no contact to the outside world where they do all sorts of bizarre and heinous things something like the people’s Temple Jim Jones cult where we got our phrase don’t drink the Kool-Aid from but these are the extreme cases according to the Christian Research Institute they posit a second way that the term cult is used particularly within a Christian context where they write that the second way to define a cult is popular in Evangelical Christian circles from this perspective a cult is any group that deviates from

The Orthodox teachings of the historic Christian faith being derived from the Bible and confirmed through the ancient ecumenical Creeds this is the definition of a cult that we are referring to and utilizing not just in this video but when we use that term on this platform so according to that definition adventism is absolutely a cult it deviates from Christian Orthodoxy and does not affirm what is contained within the Creeds and while I can’t speak for others out there that’s the definition that this platform is using utilizing as we listen in

Though it’s going to be made very clear that both David and Tai have Dr Eric Mason’s appearance on the with the Perry’s podcast in mind this one but what’s fascinating about this is that the Perry’s invited Ty Gibson along with Iver Meers to show up for a part two with myself and Pastor EJ Lon but they declined instead they took to social media to air their Grievances and claimed that they wish they would have been invited to come on and set the record straight evidencing that this was purely lip service to try and make it seem like the Parry didn’t do the exact

Thing that these SDA critics of Christianity demanded so with that as the backdrop let’s listen to Ty and David okay let’s go to um next question um this is from sulin it says what is your advice on how to answer people who’ve been watching certain podcasts that put forth their quote unquote proof that the SDA church is a cult so this is very specific reference so something happening here within uh some parts of the Adventist Community um where there are podcasts being made that are saying this is why this is the proof as to why adventism is a cult and there’s been

Some back and forth around that so what are your what are y’all’s thoughts on that question Ty I’ll start I’ll be very interested to hear your perspective so I have followed this somewhat Loosely I actually spent a little bit of time yesterday watching a response video and the thing that occurs to me is that this is hardly breaking news that people disagree with what we believe it’s like it’s like well we believe that the Sabbath is important there are people that don’t think the Sabbath is important what on a planet with 8 billion people there’s people that don’t

Agree with me about things all right so the question was what is your advice for those who have been watching podcasts that put forth their proof that the SDA church is a cult David it isn’t just that Adventist theology believes different things lots of Christians have doctrinal disagreements and differences with each other but we share in the core of Orthodoxy adventism does not which is the point that’s precisely why it is a cult Adventist theology affirms dambly heretical doctrines but David tried to do the standard downplaying of this either in

Ignorance or dishonesty to make it sound like some of us are making a big deal about nothing for example he said Adventists believe the Sabbath is important no David your organization teaches far more than just that the Sabbath is important Presbyterians also believe the Sabbath is important but the system that you’re a Salesman for claims that the Sabbath is the dividing line between those who truly follow God and those who do not that it’s the great test of loyalty to God that it’s the Seal of God it’s the Seal of the law it’s supposed to be one of the Hallmarks that seventh

Day Adventists are entirely distinct from Babylon there’s a there’s a Halo of light around it in heaven the SDA church has turned this glorious doctrine of the Sabbath into this exclusivist badge that allegedly identifies you all as the apple of God’s eye that all is cultic my point being they don’t just teach that the Sabbath is special that’s a nice in uous way of putting it but when you actually examine the belief critically and systematically one can quickly and easily see that the SDA view is cultic and trying to generalize things to make it sound like you know any sort of

Criticism is unwarranted only reinforces my belief in adventism leading people into cultic ways of thinking let’s not forget folks that David is affiliated with and a Salesman for an organization that claims to have the theological God Particle the great controversy theme and as Herbert Douglas also States in this article the SDA church was given this Paradigm by God himself they didn’t Discover it he describes it as the mind of God and this Paradigm defines all aspects of Seventh Day Adventist theology including defining terms this might be one of the most grandio claims

I’ve personally ever heard somebody make so David when the official publishing arms of your organization say stuff like this you bet you we’re going to critically examine with a fine- tooth comb and be very critical it also demonstrates very clearly that the primary issue with Seventh Adventist theology is definitions not checking the boxes that you use all the right words this is something I’ve been very vocal about I typically talk about scaling the language barrier what Herbert Douglas admitted in this article proves my point you guys don’t mean the same thing that

Christians do on fundamental Orthodox Christian teaching even if you use the same words now when you throw in the wrinkle of cult is the moment you use that language it’s almost like a slur right there’s a there’s a certain visceral power like calling somebody a bigot or something then you’re like oh a cult and it creates a kind of fearful like oh no am I in a cult listen Jesus himself said that that they referred to him as be elah right they said I cast out demons and you say I do it by be El so we should not be overly concerned if people think that we are a

Cult whatever the working definition of cult is I mean people people are going to agree or disagree about what specifically constitutes a cult to me that’s an interesting question but the fact that others might say oh David you’re in a cult okay have a great day I my job is my job is to love people to study the word and there are certainly ideas that as a seventh day avenus I hold that I am well aware uh people regard as unusual as strange as out of the norm for example Sabbath the I believe that when you die you sleep the sleep of death and await the

Resurrection some regard that as cultic it matters to me not at all that some people regard that as cultic the point here here is that if you’re the kind of person that listens to a podcast by a a presbyterian or a calvinist or a Baptist or an atheist that says hey by the way you’re an occult and you find that really troubling I have some advice for you you need to know what you believe better because I would be happy to sit down in a room with literally any person at any time under almost any c circumstances to discuss why I believe what I believe

Based on the text of scripture and I know because I’ve been doing this for 30 years now that I can give reasonable credible biblical answers that possess explanatory power that not everybody’s going to find persuasive don’t don’t confuse the idea that if not everybody agrees with you that Therefore your idea is not persuasive or compelling that’s not the case David I accept your proposal let’s sit down and talk talk about this exact subject how’s that sound I’ve already presented my running definition of a cult which is simply the historical usage of the word in the

Christian context and we can examine to see if adventism fits the bill because your friend Ty Gibson had the same opportunity on Jackie and Preston Perry’s podcast where I was going to be present and he backed out yet then he claimed on social media that he was never invited by simply pointing to proof text in the Bible that you think support your views that doesn’t prove they biblical he’s mentioned the Sabbath multiple times well David what if I just cite all the first day passages in the New Testament to say so therefore worship on Sunday is biblical

Are you going to concede that or you going to argue that the text isn’t saying what’s being claimed and needs to be understood a certain way of course you are so why is it that Adventists can simply utilize proof texts however they want and despite whether or not they’re being abused the response is going to be well that’s fine you don’t have to be persuaded but I proved I have biblical support yet if a Christian does the same thing you won’t concede that what they’re saying is biblical so more specifically let’s have a sit down to discuss if the Adventist

Church affirms doctrines that put you all outside of Christian Orthodoxy and the actual soundness of the ex aesus used when seeking to provide biblical support for any given belief not just he the standard laundry list of proof texts that Adventists will assert and claim prove their beliefs are biblical he mentioned the term cult evoking a certain emotion yes this is true and I use it in hopes of sometimes I use it in hopes of provoking Adventist to action in the same way that Paul sought to provoke his Kinsmen the Jews to jealousy regarding his affection for

The Gentiles but even with that aside I use it because it’s accurate as we saw I’m not using it in the pop culture way it’s accurate David what we aren’t actually hearing is any sort of practical response to the questioner aside from basically don’t listen to him which is unironically the cultic response just keep your head in the sand this is nothing new we’ve heard it all before Etc instead of advice to lean into the objections and really engage to see if they’re founded which is what the response of a real truth Seeker is this sort of assumptive advice from SDA

Leaders is part of the reason that many Adventists will end up parting the same talking points and arguments to all people regardless of who it is because they assume the criticisms from all people objecting to adventism are the same when they’re not so when I hear you know people get all oh somebody so and so said that you’re an Ault okay I mean it literally doesn’t move the needle at all for me it is interesting to hear and I’ve listened to a little bit of the rationale and Ty you’ve interacted with this a little bit but it’s all kind of funny in that oh

You believe that Jesus is the of the angels and that Michael is one of the is like the name for Jesus as the the the uh leader of the Angelic host yeah yeah I I believe that’s true I believe that possesses fantastic explanatory power both the Old and New Testaments it’s not the most important thing to me it’s not even in the top 10 or 20 the identification of Michael but you think that makes what I believe cultic okay have a great day carry on I don’t understand at all yes it is obvious that David does not understand because if he did I think he would understand why some of us are

Voicing our concerns the fact that he doesn’t understand only reaffirms why efforts like answering adventism need to exist they’re sprinting towards the cliff folks they can’t see the dangers and they’re laughing at the one trying to warn them along the way but this was just more generalization and caricaturing of objections now I can only speak for myself again but since he’s generalizing those who critically examine adventism that by proxy includes me David if you guys are wrong about what you all teach about Michael this has serious ramifications for the entire

SDA system of theology your guys’s entire eschatology is the framework of seventh day adventism Michael plays a role in that and Michael being Jesus specifically plays a role in that furthermore your system is stuck having to defend the claims of a woman from the 19th century who was allegedly a prophet and she made claims about Jesus being Michael and she allegedly possessed the spirit of Prophecy which is supposed to help identify you all as God’s last day Remnant and the concept of being the last day Remnant is connected to your guys’s teaching about Babylon and the

Rest of us needing to come join you all or the wrath of God will be poured out on us this is dominoes sir this stuff is connected did so if you guys are wrong about Michael this undermines the pro the prophetic validity of Ellen White which undermines the central framework and Foundation of your movement it undermines being the remnant that the rest of us are Babylon and we need to come join you guys all this stuff is connected and it’s frustrating how the Neo Adventist guys like David and Tai try acting like it isn’t they seem to embibe a a very

Unidimensional way of thinking where they can’t see how all of the system beliefs interact with one another and the implications for what happens when any given one of them is falsified either that or they’re just being dishonest when we’re talking about a movement that claims to have special truth that no one else does and our spiritual well-being is dependent upon coming and joining them or the wrath of God is stored up for us that’s cultic that’s what the video that I played a clip from earlier was focused on a key a key Hallmark of Cults is that they claim

That they have some special truth that God exclusively gave to them and you must embrace it or you’ll be damned it’s like a form of spiritual gas uh gaslighting but furthermore David is either ignorant or dishonest I am leaning toward the former but the SDA Church hasn’t only ever taught that Jesus being Michael means that he’s the head of the Angels because notice first in the June 6 1911 issue of signs of the times the SDA Church writes quote the Eternal Word gave himself he did not aspire to be equal with God did not meditate a usurp of the Throne of the

Universe but he emptied himself gave himself then and there for Sinners he took the form of a servant becoming an angel among the angels that he might redeem Angels but they would not and when they rejected the righteousness and life so freely offered he descended lower still to those duped by Satan Fallen man stooping even to death that he might redeem of the Fallen all who desired to be redeemed and vindicate to the universe to all eternity the character of God that was the work of the word of God the Eternal logos when he became Michael the Archangel when he

Became Jesus the man of Nazareth when he was anointed the Christ when he died Our Savior on Calvary yet during all this time the hosts of evil with all the baleful deceptive cruel devices of sin were hurled against him that God’s character might be marred that the great Vindicator Redeemer might fall and again one year later in the same publication quote he Jesus Took the nature of angels to repeat the first step then in his humiliation in laying aside his divine nature was to put on the nature of angels and thus it is that we have Jesus brought to view as Michael the Archangel

The commander of the hosts of Heaven the captain of the host of the Lord and as such the armies in heaven follow him when he became an angel he bore A fitting name even as when later he became a man his name befitted the nature which he took by virtue of his birth into our human family that name was Emmanuel God With Us his name as an angel is Michael which signifies the one who is like God whatever the name that he takes in crushing sin and rebellion in Redeeming the lost and in restoring Harmony to the universe that name must indicate that God is in him and with him

On the very plane and in the very nature of the class of beings to whom as sent by living the god life on the plane of angels of which Satan was one although Fallen he could neutralize the force of Satan’s accusations thus when he became an angel the fact must not be lost sight of that he was God with the angels yet living on their plane possessing their natures and this thought is preserved in the name that he bears as an angel close quote so the Adventist Jesus is title regarding being the commander of the host of Heaven the commander of the Angels is

Tied to him taking on an Angelic nature not just that Archangel describes a role but also a nature that he assumed he was given the title of commander and Archangel by virtue of adding unto himself an Angelic nature and this is part of the Great controversy narrative Jesus Took on an Angelic nature to war with Satan seeking to save apostate Angels yes this is cultic David it is not at all Christian Orthodox or biblical to believe that Jesus Took on an Angelic nature to try and save the apostate angels yet they all rejected him and so he sunk even lower taking on

A human nature to try and save humans and it isn’t biblical nor Orthodox to teach that prior to the creation of the earth Jesus was exalted to be made equal with God the Father where he was given in Authority he did not previous ly possess which is also a foundational aspect to the great controversy worldview and narrative it was this action that allegedly resulted in Lucifer becoming jealous rebelling and becoming Satan the adversary in the great controversy which led to Jesus even needing to take on an Angelic nature supposedly and trying to say that

Because it’s not found in the fundamental beliefs is not a valid excuse for those that are going to say this that does not matter because the great controversy is one of the fundamental beliefs even if it’s not completely exhaustive in the wording of the belief you guys know that this is there this is what the organization teaches and it is a foundational aspect to the sth day Adventist worldview all of this is pure fiction folks yet it informs how the Adventist system approaches and interprets the Bible the Jesus of scripture does not have an Angelic nature he is Yahweh the

Almighty consubstantial with the father and the spirit he was never exalted to be made equal with God the father and led into counsels he didn’t previously have access into in the soon anticipated creation of the earth if David actually cared about truth and was a truth Seeker he would take this information and concern more seriously and not try and just handwave It Away by simply saying we’ve heard all this before have a nice day ha and just keep sprinting towards the cliff we care about the souls of Adventists that’s why I’m saying all this not just to dunk on the SDA church

And then people are you know they want to go on about the scapegoat you know Leviticus 16 we’re really going to get into the uh the Obscure which by the way I love Leviticus 16 but you’re going to try to pretend like Orthodox Christianity has some welldefined perspective on Azazel I’ll bet you not one in a thousand Evangelical Christians even know what Azazel is or who he is so if you want to have a conversation about Leviticus 16 and how that informs the the mediatorial ministry of Jesus and the the sacrificial Priestly and expiatory Ministry of Jesus let’s have

That question let’s have that conversation but to pretend like this is somehow cultic or that there’s a welldefined Orthodox position on the scapegoat and Azazel and Adventists find themselves outside of the nor come on what what what are we doing here there are people that disagree with us news flash who cares there’s people that think that you’re in a cult okay there’s people that thought that Jesus cast out demons by the devil’s power who cares now would I be happy would Ty be happy would Angelo be happy to sit down and have a meaningful conversation and dialogue about why it

Is that we believe the things we believe of course of course happy to that would be fantastic and respectfully there would be points we where we would just disagree but the idea that people are all you know worked up about somebody on some podcast somewhere disagrees with something that we believe you need to be more grounded in what you believe if you find that Earth shattering if you find that shaking or troubling I don’t know what to tell you you need to spend more time in the text of scripture to figure out what it is that you actually believe yes Christians are in complete

Unity David that Christ Alone accomplished the atonement not Jesus and Satan your statement also assumes that oazo is a name and not that it’s describing a function which is precisely the heart of the argument around the term azazil but regardless of that Christians are absolutely United in the belief that Jesus alone accomplished the atonement that’s the key issue with your guys’ position now we’ll look at this more later with Tai but just like with Michael the Archangel this is a big deal David because if you guys are wrong your entire novel seven-step Sanctuary model

Of redemption breaks the scapegoat is one of the links in an entire chain of doctrines and you all need all the links to be intact in order for the theory to be correct if one of them breaks the entire chain breaks and just like with Michael the Archangel if their theory is wrong on the scapegoat that proves that Ellen White didn’t possess the Adventist understanding of the spirit of Prophecy and you guys are not the remnant because she endorsed your guys’s understanding with the stamp of approval from God she claimed the words in great controversy

Are barricaded by a thus saith the Lord in great controversy she says Satan is the scapegoat so if we falsify that claim that proves Ellen White was a false prophet in other words it completely falsifies adventism and that matters David when you’re a part of a movement that says our Eternal Destiny depends on coming to join you all when your movement is a sheep stealing organization with a special message that God allegedly gave exclusively to you all to primarily take to Christians to call them out from where they’re at because their church is

Basically apostate and rejected by God and you can try and say well I personally don’t believe that because a lot of the Neo Adventists at least pay lip service to saying well I don’t believe that well you’re speaking here as though you’re speaking for the Adventist organization and I can show you a mountain of source document that contradict what you’d say then so is it the source documents that matter or not David’s shocked that the questioners even ask asking such a thing and I’m shocked that David can’t actually see the bigger picture adventism is a deception it will

Lead people to predition it’s not just an alternate option it will not bring you peace with God obviously they’re going to disagree with this but the point is for those of us that know this yes it causes us to have grave concern for Adventist David and it’s the loving response to speak up not Pat each other on the back like a Big kumbai Y when we know this information no if we care about you we’re going to say something it took guts for Eric Mason to do what he did it took guts for the Perry’s to do what they did but there’s no acknowledgement here

From him you know of genuine concerns that people have and this is typical of the Neo Adventists they downplay everything they act like those of us that bring things up are the weird ones just miss any sort of the Val you know any sort of valid concerns and they try and present things in the most watered down way possible which is exactly what they’ve done in their efforts to Rebrand adventism as something that it’s not yeah that’s good Ty well so what is the question again specifically what what’s the response to the idea that the 7th Day Adventist

Church is a cult here’s my response to that the sth Day Adventist Church is not a cult and there’s no evidence for for that thank you except there is if you use it in the classical religious sense not the pop culture sense like I’ve said and I will show and I’ve shown elsewhere numerous times the SDA church is outside of Orthodoxy on numerous aspects and as I’ve mentioned multiple times tonight they claim to possess a special message from God that only they have and our well-being hangs upon coming and joining them they also bind millions of people’s

Consciences by way of their fundamental beliefs and baptismal vows which people who are transferring in according to the church manual on page 50 and 51 claim that you have to take the vows even if you’ve already been baptized and you want to just be a member and yes she is a part of the vows they bind millions of people’s consciences to a false prophit from the 19th century as GI Butler notes and I show this a lot quote our position on the testimonies is like the Keystone to the arch take that out and there’s no logical stopping Place till all the

Special truths of the message are gone our enemies and the master they serve realize this but some of our people are so blind that they do not nothing is sure than this that the message and the Visions belong together and stand or fall together close quote furthermore the statement of confidence in her writings Bears the stamp of approval of the GC in session where they tell us that her writings uplift the normative character of scripture and correct inaccurate interpretations of it which means that without her writings you can’t understand what the Bible is

Actually saying this is cultic so so are they a cult like Jim Jones or your stereotypical Netflix documentary depiction no of course not but in the classical religious sense of the word cult adventism absolutely is no questions asked Adventists can him and ha all they want and they will including Ty and David but this is the barebone facts without Ellen White all the special truths of adventism collapse the visions and the message are inseparable and Butler said that advent who cannot see this are blind but this is cultic this idea that you have a special Mission message and

Insight from God that only you have a present truth message and you’ll be damned if you don’t accept it Hallmark sign of a cult group so the only evidence that we need Tai is the great controversy worldview so so so I’ve I’ve been a part of the Seventh Adventist Church for a long time nobody’s ever I’ve never encountered any cultic activity nobody’s ever tried to control me um what do we mean when we what do we mean when we say it’s Ault to to to to accuse a Protestant denomination a worldwide Evangelistic Protestant denomination that emerged out of protestantism to

Call that thing a cult is a it is a manifest intellectual laziness that allows you to ES escape from having to actually have a discussion with us about what we actually believe and to say that the Seventh Day Adventist Church is a cult you know that that’s inflammatory when people think of a cult they think okay Jim Jones and drinking Kool-Aid and everybody committing suicide together and Charles Manson and his Cult of murder no Ty you guys are not Protestant and this is a horrible defense of being labeled as a cult so what if you all are worldwide Cults can be massive lots of

Other Cults are also International and claim to be Protestant you’re not Protestant just because you’re not Roman Catholic we Define things based on what they are not by what they’re not or by what they lack for example we don’t Define a car by saying a car is not a dog that doesn’t tell me what the car actually is we Define a car by what it actually is same goes for protestantism and adventism for that matter of which you’ve tried to Rebrand and redefine in the modern ER but before we dive into the various evidences that prove adventism is indeed

Not Protestant Ty you said it’s intellectually lazy to refer to adventism as a cult because it allows one to escape from having to actually have a discussion with you all on what you believe Ty you had the opportunity to do exactly this on the Perry’s podcast with myself and EJ Lon you ran you instead took the social media claiming that you’d be willing to go onto their podcast making it appear like you weren’t in invited when you indeed were you very clearly just didn’t want to be there with people like myself who the slippery word games won’t

Work on EJ and I are able to see through all that and we would be able to ask you the questions and press you hard on things because we can see through all that in ways that the parry’s and Dr Mason can’t since it’s not their background and expertise you guys want to go on somewhere where you can bamboozle people where you can make it appear like you’re just Protestant like everyone else when the real issue is definitions and they’re not going to know the way that adventism in the great controversy theme defines things been there done that got the

T-shirt we’re not interested in you just telling us what you believe we’re former Adventists we know we’ve heard the script a million times what’s actually intellectually lazy is hand waving away valid criticisms instead of engaging them it’s also intellectually lazy to try and do the standard we’re just Protestant like you all shtick when all of the evidence demonstrates to the contrary which is why I’m going to begin proving such with a number of evidences now first we’re going to listen to a compilation of clips from Adventist leaders including

Ty Gibson listen to how these people Define solos scriptura fundamental Protestant belief pay very close attention and so for the next 10 sessions we are going to study what our source of authority should be should it be the Bible and the Bible only and the Bible only and the Bible only Sol scriptura or should it be tradition or a combination of both these were the doctrines that emerged from the Protestant these individuals these reformers were negating all authority in favor of one Authority one Authority one Authority scripture alone as s Day

Adventists we always believe or our Pioneers Pioneers believed and we do the same uh that the Bible is the Only Rule of faith in practice Only Rule Only Rule only rule or in order words solos scriptura stands by faith Sorry by scripture alone yeah that’s not solos scriptura and what this shows is how the running track record within adventism is a unique defining of everything while trying to use the same terminology to then be able to claim they affirm what others do what Tai put forth is the same definition his prophetess did she was also wrong notice for example what

Charles Hodge says in his Systematic Theology he is a qualified Source on this quote all Protestants agree in teaching that the word of God as contained in the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments is the only infallible rule of faith and practice close quote so notice all Protestants agree that solos scriptura is the belief that the scripture is the only what infallible rule of faith and practice it’s not that the Bible is the only Authority outright the individuals that coined the phrase solos scriptura believed that the ecumenical Creeds were

Authoritative they believed the church had a level of authority but that these authorities are not infallible the SDA Church teaches that Ellen White’s writings infallibly interpret the infallible Bible and that without those writings to infallibly interpret people will be left in confusion which means one can’t really understand the Bible without her writings it is a package deal like GI Butler told us so right off the bat the Seventh Adventist Church doesn’t actually affirm solos scriptura despite the lip service to it they have redefined it to fit and suit themselves

And then fault those of us that notice this as the ones who are supposedly in the wrong no stop taking terms that have a strict definition redefining them and then trying to insist you believe the same thing as those that coin the term that’s dishonesty furthermore Adventist historian George Knight is very forthcoming in his book search for identity where he writes quote North American protestantism of the 19th century was a child of the 16th century Reformation many Adventists are aware of that fact but have mistakenly concluded that their church is an heir of those

Branches of the Reformation initiated by Martin Luther John Calvin or uck zwingley while it is true that Adventist concept of salvation by grace through faith came through the mainline reformers the theological orientation of adventism really finds itself most at home with what church historians call the radical Reformation or the anabaptist yeah the anabaptists were not Protestant only when Protestant is Loosely defined as not Roman Catholic uh do Adventists fit the bill but another proof of this is also admitted by Mr Gibson himself self in the same series

Of presentations that the last clip was from he puts forth the Adventist understanding of the church in history notice here’s the basic shape of church history just to wrap her Minds around the big picture getting the aerial view of what took place if you really want to contemplate what unfolded in the history of the church something like this first of all the was the formation period this is what we call Apostolic Christianity this is where Jesus has initiated or set in motion a beautiful picture of God that gives rise to a particular kind of church called the New Testament Church

New Testament Christianity the Apostolic Church These are those people in Acts chapter 2 who have all things common and there’s nobody who is in want among them these are people whose hearts are overflowing with other centered self-giving love for one another because they have gotten a picture of the other centered self-giving love of Jesus giving his life at Calvary but then what happened there was what the prophets foretold to be a deformation period in church history this was warned about in scripture as we’re going to see in a moment but the deformation wasn’t merely

Listen it wasn’t merely a deformation of practice or ceremony what was taking place about the 3D and fourth Century after the apostolic period what was taking place is that a deformed a distorted picture of God was being palmed off on the people on the masses as though it were the truth and gradually as the decades went by people began to believe dark things about God that were foreign to the love that was manifested in Christ and then down through Long Dark Ages there came a point at which Reformation was necessary and inevitable people were beginning to

Stand up in their Liberty and pay attention to what was going on inside their hearts and minds they were beginning to push back on the ugliness that was being palmed off on the people in the name of Jesus and if it wasn’t Luther it would have been somebody else what I’m going to suggest to you is that the Reformation is a process and it continues to this very day and that you and I have the privilege the awesome privilege of continuing the Reformation started by Luther and that’s why in the shape of church history what is depicted here is that Reformation is going to continue

Until it produces a complete restoration of the apostolic faith that isn’t what Protestants believe about the church in history we are not restorationists the restorationist sects aren’t Protestant either Protestants have a very specific view of the church both visible and invisible this was a hotly debated topic between the reformers and Roman Catholic hierarchy and Adventists do not agree with Protestants on this on top of that fact SDA Pastor Mark Finley recently told us this about the SDA Church’s unique identity God called out of the larger

Body of protestantism the 7eventh Day Adventist Church to restore the truths of scripture that had been lost sight of down through the ages in the medieval church at the union of church and state but some of which were recovered by the the reformers so the Seventh Adventist Church is a called out body is a called out body is a called out body Ty you all are supposed to be called out of protestantism as the remnant from Babylon so you all need to embrace that and and give up the fence sitter thing we’re Protestants just like you brother why are you picking on us it’s dishonest

It confuses people own that you guys are your own thing and then defend it that’s what the organization teaches that’s what you guys believe stop trying to act like some of us that criticize the SDA Church in this area are out of bounds for doing such the rude issue always comes back folks always definitions the Seventh Adventist Church is a Protestant denomination that believes all the basic doctrines of apostolic Protestant Christianity we confess the tri Triune godhead of Father Son and Holy Spirit we confess the deity of Christ we confess the atoning

Sacrifice of Christ we do not believe that Jesus is a created being you don’t even have to do a lot of research in fact if you just Google what do s th avist believe you will find I think the second document that comes up maybe the first one is just the the stated belief system that’s voted by the worldwide 7th avence denomination on what we believe belief number one the first section is about our doctrine of God we do not believe that Jesus is a created being we do not believe that Satan makes atonement for sin these claims are Preposterous they have no grounding in

Reality the fact that somebody is claiming to be a scholar and making those kinds of claims on public media they’re making a fool of themselves they’re literally revealing the depth of their ignorance on a level that is frightening these individuals just need to read and they could find out what we believe or they could just call a leader of the Seventh Adventist Church or any local Pastor literally you could randomly randomly in whatever City that you’re in get on Google and pull up the names of the local Seventh Adventist churches and just call a local Adventist

Pastor and you wouldn’t find a single Seventh Adventist Pastor that does not believe in the deity of Christ and the Full atoning Sacrifice of Christ you would not find a single one and if you found one you should tell us about it because we tattle tell on him to our denomination and he will be fired the Seventh Adventist Church is an orthodox Apostolic Protestant Christian denomination and those who claim it’s ult simply don’t know what they’re talking about no I’m sorry Ty you don’t know what you’re talking about which is why you should have shown up to the

Parry podcast where I was going to be to examine the claim of adventism being a cult where we would have looked at official Source documentation that holds more Authority than you when it comes to speaking for adventism and together we would have seen if the source documentation puts adventism outside of Orthodoxy or not there’s an objective Baseline folks it’s not some nebulous well it’s a mystery no there’s an objective Baseline to test these things stop acting like people are afraid of you my offer to David stands with you let’s have a discussion a very cordial

One on this specific topic making very clear what is meant by the term cult then we will examine SDA Source documentation and see whose s it’s on you said all this as though you’re putting forth you know the official representation of adventism you speak like this is what avist believe which means the source documentation should be on your side right like the signs of the times which says the aist Jesus assumed an Angelic nature let’s do it Ty I’ll bring my source documentation you bring yours let’s see who does and doesn’t know what they’re talking

About you’ve completely ignored the primary problem which is definitions you just rattled off words like Triune atonement Etc yet you aren’t defining these things it’s how you guys Define these things that’s problematic that’s what puts adventism outside the Christian faith rattling off some Christian e checklist doesn’t get adventism off the hook it’s why on this platform I constantly am highlighting that how things are defined matters one of the Aven Church’s fundamental beliefs that he told us to Google is the great controversy T the great controversy

Isn’t just the general idea that there’s a God and a Satan it is a very detailed pre-earth origin narrative that is entirely foreign to both Chris in the Bible it’s not just a fundamental belief it’s the unique world viiew of your movement something that Christians don’t believe nevertheless he said adventism confesses all the doctrines of apostolic Protestant Christianity no you guys don’t you pay lip service to them to try and make it sound like you do but in substance you don’t it’s superficial Appeal on top of what I already showed earlier I’ve shown this chart in other

Presentations this is a side by side of some keyword sum of the ways sth day adventism differs from Protestants again protestantism isn’t simply not being Roman Catholic he said we affirm the Triune God of Father Son and Holy Spirit once again definitions matter not just using the right words no one denies the Adventist Church uses the word Trinity Tha so what the Trinity describes something very specific it’s actually why the term was coined because specificity was needed it is a very specific Doctrine not a general one and here we are back in Jerry Moon’s paper

Where he plainly states quote the purpose of the present article is to clarify more fully the similarities and differences between Ellen White’s view of the Heavenly Trio and the traditional doctrine of the trinity in order to discover her position in relation to the current debate among Adventists close quote this is to say that the abous view is distinct and different from the Orthodox Christian view what moon has called the traditional Doctrine which very clearly means the aous view is contrasted against the Orthodox belief and is different he continues in the

Paper where he explains that the SDA view developed based on Visions given to Ellen White quote the change from avenus rejection of the traditional doctrine of the Trinity to acceptance of a Biblical trinitarian Doctrine was not a simple reversal when James White denounced credal trinitarianism in 1846 Ellen White agreed with both his positive point that the father and the sun are two distinct literal tangible persons and his negative point that the philosophical trinitarianism held by many did spiritualize away the personal reality of the father and the son soon

After this she added the conviction based on visions that both Christ and the father have bodily form rejecting the teaching of one trinitarian Creed that God is without body or parts so in this paper he notes how the movement went from being anti-trinitarian to eventually embracing their own concept that the movement calls the Trinity despite the fact that the Trinity was a term that was coined for the purpose of Express specificity not a general idea that can mean various things but we also see the SDA defining of the term person which is drastically different than that

Of what the Christian means by person James White meant having a literal tangible form to which Ellen White allegedly confirmed this understanding through a vision where she supposedly add asked Jesus face to face about such and he told her that God the father has a physical body like his now I’ve gone into extreme detail in this presentation where I lay all of this out with specificity for those that want to explore it further the link is in the description box down below Moon also goes on to express in that same paper that Ellen White even spoke of the Holy

Spirit as having a physical tangible body like us but he’s invisible to the human eye none of that is within Orthodoxy nor is that what Christians believe God does not have a physical Body By Nature Jesus is the unique Son of God who added unto himself a human nature in the Incarnation but this is very different than God who is Spirit possessing a physical body that looks like ours by his very nature because he yes Ellen White in great controversy claimed that to be made in God’s image means not only in character but in physical features as well this is not

Orthodox it places you guys in the cult category on yet another topic and while it’s true abist theology doesn’t teach that Jesus was created like I showed earlier the great controversy narrative teaches a Jesus that was exalted to be made equal with God the Father prior to the creation of the Earth this is still a different Jesus than the Bible because the Bible obviously nowhere says this and it contradicts the Bible Jesus is Yahweh the almighty one with the father and the spirit and Ty you might agree with that if so praise God but it doesn’t change the facts that Ellen

White holds more doctrinal Authority than you when it comes to official 7th Day Adventist Theology and she makes a mountain of alleged divinely inspired statements to the contrary of that reality and the specific concept the exaltation of of the Adventist Jesus is a core component of the entire belief in the great controversy it’s what supposedly triggered the whole thing making Lucifer jealous leading to his becoming Satan the accuser but then he mentioned the atonement and notice he said we confess the atoning sacrifice of Christ right in other words Tai you don’t believe the

Same thing as Protestants on the atonement I’ve pointed this language out numerous times before I’ve said it for a long time that Christians need to be on the lookout for when an Adventist says they believe in the atoning sacrifice versus they believe in the atonement and this is because this is what the SDA Church means by the word atonement from the book salvation Contours of aous soteriology SDA Theologian John Pauline writes quote one of the most debated topics topics of Christian theology is expressed in these questions why the cross what really happened at the cross

The answers to these questions have been widely debated under the general heading of the atonement but when seventh day Adventists approached the matter of atonement an immediate dilemma is perceived when Adventists talk about atonement they refer specifically to what Jesus is doing now in the Heavenly Sanctuary on the other hand when Scholars outside the Seventh Adventist Church discuss the atonement they refer specifically to the cross of Jesus Christ and what God was doing there close quote in adventism the word atonement refers to the investigative

Judgment something entirely foreign to Christianity and novel to adventism and when Christians refer to the atonement as Dr Pauline notes we are referring to the Cross of Christ and what was accomplished there a Hallmark of protestantism is the belief that the atonement was completed at the cross not that the atoning sacrifice was complete but then the work of atonement would continue in a building in heaven with the second phase of that atonement starting in 1844 where Jesus would begin the work of expiating sin to eventually make atonement over Satan the scapegoat

Like Leviticus 16:10 says which brings us to what he said about the scapegoat he said they don’t believe that Satan makes atonement for sin once again then TI you need to take this up with the word of God specifically Leviticus 16:10 which very plainly says says that atonement is made on the scapegoat you guys claim the scapegoat in that verse anti typically represent Satan which means that yes you guys are saying Satan has atonement made on him and the exposition of your organization’s own fundamental beliefs recognizes this issue and seeks to address it in the

Footnote of the fundamental beliefs book they write quote if azazil represents Satan how can scripture connect him with the atonement as the high priest after having cleansed the sanctuary placed the sins on azazil who was forever removed from God’s people so Christ after having cleansed the Heavenly Sanctuary will place the confessed and forgiven sins of his people on Satan who will then be forever removed from the saved how fitting that the closing act of the drama of God’s dealings with sin should be a returning upon the head of Satan of all the sin and guilt that issuing from

Him originally once brought such tragedy to the lives of those now freed of sin by Christ’s atoning blood thus the cycle is completed the drama ended only when Satan the instigator of all sin is finally removed can it truly be said that sin is forever blotted out of God’s Universe in this accommodated sense we may understand that the scapegoat has a part in the atonement with the righteous saved the wicked cut off and Satan no more then not till then will the universe be in a state of Perfect Harmony as it was originally before sin entered close quote so in an

Accommodating sense Satan helps Jesus accomplish the reconciliation of a Believer to God this is blasphemy Christ Alone accomplished and procured such a thing the point of the objection is that you guys claim that Jesus and Satan accomplished the atonement together Satan ultimately Bears the sins of a Believer who makes it through the investigative judgment and in that accommodating sense he has a role in the reconciliation of man to God in this model that’s not Orthodox regardless of whichever atonement model you may embrace it’s not just that adventism

Holds to a different atonement Theory than Protestants it’s the actual claims being made in the SDA model are heretical they’re beyond simply being heterodox you guys do teach that Satan and Jesus both accomplish the atonement I’ve even had an aous Pastor admit this on record you’re agreeing that both goats function as a sin offering and Leviticus 16:10 says the scapegoat had atonement made on it so in your antitype where Satan is the scapegoat does the scapegoat have atonement made on it because you guys don’t believe the atonement is finished yet correct

Correct we believe that it process so and when does it end is it after the scapegoat or is it before the scapegoat it is after the scapegoat after the scapegoat after the scapegoat right so you believe that Jesus and Satan both partake in the atonement this is Blasphemous heresy and you need to repent of this and until you all are ready to actually move Beyond just the generalized Christian word salads and really wrestle with the objections your movement is going to keep losing and the kingdom of God is going to keep winning if the SDA Church doesn’t

Actually teach any of the things that some of us are objecting to then why is a mountain of source documentation on our side The Source documentation is not on the side of the Neo Adventists like Ty and David they are a part of the rebranding effort of adventism to try and repackage the great controversy worldview in an updated skin but at the end of the day it’s the same old product just with more inconsistencies what we heard from them is the same thing that Adventist leaders have been telling Adventists for decades ignore the valid criticisms these people don’t know what

They’re talking about we’ve heard it all just study the evence system even more and drown it all out this is the same thing we heard from Ted Wilson at last year’s annual Council address you go online you can hear all kinds of weird things about church leaders and about

Me well I want to tell you we don’t worry about that because we’re chosen for Mission so we have internal and external disagreements and denigration of the word of God I’ll tell you this morning as we proceed I’m going to be really focusing on that particular area the denigration of God’s word the neutralization of God’s word and all kinds of other angry assaults including misinformation and outright false allegations against God’s work you know various people or organizations they they attack God’s Church twisting facts and misrepresenting the Very character

Of God’s Remnant Church there seem to be people who just specialize in that they just live to make others look bad this doesn’t actually deal with the criticisms nor does it refute the charges in focus it only shows you’re not willing to truly engage despite trying to put up the front that you are the problem is definitions not whether you have proof text that you can try and support your claims with not whether or not you use the right Christian lingo at the end of the day all of avenus theology is filtered through the great controversy Paradigm which doesn’t

Come from the Bible AS avenus Scholarship is on record admitting this extra biblical worldview defines all the terms that the system uses and since Christians don’t have a great controversy worldview you don’t mean the same thing that we do on foundational matters you’re outside of Orthodoxy which according to the historic definition of a cult adventism does indeed fit the bill so Ty David I look forward to having a discussion about this it’ll be cordial balanced it can take place on a neutral platform let’s make it happen Gentlemen let’s see where the truth actually leads

May Christ richly bless you all in the grace and peace won by him and his vicarious death on the cross for Sinners until next time God bless oh apostate did he say that come on man