Ellen G. White: Messenger of God or Deceiver? | Dr. Steve Daily vs. SDA Pastor Kevin L. Morgan

Well hey there thank you for being here especially if this is your first time with us Adventist or otherwise so I’ve got a question for y’all was Ellen White who she claimed to be was Ellen White who she claimed to be why or why not let us know in the comment section down below is she a reliable messenger from God or a deceiver did God show her copious amounts of Visions to confirm the SDA Church as God’s last day Remnant people Etc like I said comment your answer down below let us hear what you think tonight we’re going to be examining this question and I’ve got two guests that

Were so gracious to share some of their time with us and interact with it some months ago I came across a couple of videos from Adventist pastor Kevin Morgan where he was interacting with some of Dr Steve dy’s book LG white a psychobiography so I reached out to both of the individuals to set up a cordial back and forth and see where the evidence leads which is what we are going to be witnessing this evening I will simply be facilitating and moderating if need be but I’m looking forward to the engagement Kevin Morgan is the author of Sabbath rest is the there’s something

Missing in your busy life and he is also the co-author with Marcela Anderson king of More Than Words a study of inspiration and Alan White’s use of sources in the Desire of Ages he has published articles in Ministry on New Testament studies authentic worship and literacy dependency and has edited several books on church history and Biblical teaching he holds a ba in theology with minors and applied theology in biblical languages as well as a master’s degree in homiletics from from my alma mater Southern Adventist University he has served as a pastor

Since 1985 and he lives with his family in North Carolina and Dr Daly a returning guest he is the author of 28 books 10 directly related to l&g White and adventism he taught religion history and psychology at the University level with a 24-year tenure in 7th Adventist institutions including Lolinda University and La Sierra University during those years he was also a campus chaplain and a pastor he has been licensed as a psychologist since 1992 and his PhD in Psychology he also holds an MA in history and a doctorate in religion from Claremont School of Theology where his

Dissertation in history and religion related to Ellen White and adventism one final housekeeping item if you like what we are doing here and you want to see more of it you want to see a wider variety of content you can partner with us at answering adventism tocom and visit the donate page viewer support helps us not only reach Adventists with the truth but also with tangible needs that many leaving the movement have uh things like resources books Etc and we are happy to be able to do that so please consider supporting us if you feel led to do so and only then I want

To emphasize that if you are not giving to your local church do not give to us he’s like I appreciate the the desire to support but some of you that reach out if you are not giving to your church do not be giving to us please support your local assembly before us please please please hear me on that that’s just a personal and I believe biblical conviction but with that said gentlemen thank you so much for being here and welcome hey good evening both of you to both of you Steve good to meet you finally take before we formally get into things I want to give each of you five

Minutes uninterrupted to put forth your case Kevin we will start with you let the audience know some of the general reasons for why you think Ellen White is who she claimed to be and should be believed as a true Messenger of God then we will let Steve do the same before you two interact on some of the specifics when you hear this that means you have one minute left when you hear it a second time that means your time is up so just wrap up your thought um if you’re in the middle of a thought when that happens feel free to finish that thought but that will

Indicate that your time is up I will start your time when you begin speaking right after I get the timer set up here all right I will begin the time when you begin speaking and the floor is yours okay feels like I’m uh taking a final exam or something here uh let me let me just start by by saying that I have this notion that for different people to come away with different Notions about illen white it depends upon your beginning with her and whether it was a positive experience or not and what I’m going to present is the fact that for me it was very positive among a

Number of factors so I’m going to go to my screen here and talk about some of the books that were impactful for me that’s where I I began to conceptualize um for for her actually need to go to my object lesson right here if you want to go full string this was the book that my mom got when I was a baby that made an impact on her life and I heard about it you know from then on out my mom would read it while she was nursing me and then she would take me with her to the library to see if it was lining up with history and it and it was so back in 1958

She became a sth day Adventist and um I grew up with this notion that Ellen White was a nice person a good person and a helpful person because my mom had studied history in college and it just did not seem like things fit together very well I mean it was it was mostly conflicts between nations and it didn’t seem to have a Rhyme or Reason but the great controversy gave her a sense of continuity of God’s guidance in the church and leading people to understand the Bible so that was the first thing um then the first book that I ever just picked up all right we can go to full

Screen on to the my screen on this one was early writings and to be quite honest with you I wasn’t much of a reader I had to kind of force myself to read stuff when I was a kid but I started reading early writings and I was uh Amazed by it it as much as when I would read 1 Corinthians 13 and think How could somebody know to be able to express these kinds of ideas um their way beyond my experience 1 Corinthians 13 talked about God’s love in a way that nobody else ever had and I said you know Paul must be inspired and in a similar way when I was reading early writings

I I read these these descriptions of the the conflict behind the scenes and I I knew there were some Bible verses that kind of gave sketchy details about her but um this was this was different and and so when I read it I just I just loved it and I also read some of her own early experience and I’m thinking that must not have been an early writings because it doesn’t talk too much about her early experience there but I began I I I related to her experience as a conscientious follower of God and her conversion um when she was she came back from the the camp meeting and just saw

Things in a different light I had a similar experience when I was baptized I was a young child I was not quite even nine years old when I was baptized but when I was baptized I just walked outside and I just I just felt that this was something very special that I had shared with with Jesus that I knew he had been baptized and now I was baptized with him and I have to say I didn’t understand a lot of things about what it meant to be a Christian at the time but it was it was just a a very special thing so I related to her okay well found out about um that there were

Issues against her my mom had this book in her Library LG White and the critics and then I read Desire of Ages and I spent so much time reading it it was just so such a blessing to me and along with that I was reading other books this was the the story of Jesus from the living New Testament and all of these things just fit fit together well for me and finally I said I need to read the same book my mom did and when I read great controversy what impressed me most I knew it was a lot of history and there are a lot of footnotes and stuff but what impressed me most about it was that

It was Bible Bible Bible Bible I didn’t expect that I really didn’t expect that and I expected it to be written more like the early stuff so it was it was a very different thing and so it was this this experience and then being confronted with well I guess that’s it huh I ended up this this book on white life soap after many years after the issues that came up in 1980s anyway there we go thank you for that Kevin all right Steve we will now hear from you let people know who you are uh and some of the general reasons why you think Ellen White was not who she claimed to be and

Should not be trusted you have five minutes and the same rules will apply the floor will be yours and the time will begin once you begin talking well thank you miles for the invitation thank all of you who are listening tonight uh for joining us it’s a privilege to be here my experience for the last several years has been that um Adventist apologists either are terribly ignorant about their own history or they are deliberately dishonest and obviously the last one is more troubling than the first one but the king of all Adventist apologists that Kevin alluded to was FD

Nickel uh wrote he wrote Ellen Whit and her critics uh in 1950 just shortly before I was born and um when I was a kid you know any criticism of Ellen White or anyone who questioned her oh FD nickel has already handled that he’s already addressed that he’s got all the answers and uh so I grew up being told that you know by Adventist and in Adventist schools and even when I went to pu to start out that that was the party line that FD nickel had it all together he was the ultimate apologist and no critic could stand up against him and over the years as I got

My masters in history as I did two doctoral dissertations all relating to Ellen White and adventism as I taught uh adventism Adventist history at the uh graduate level uh for more than two decades or I should say for most of two decades um it became obvious to me that niichel was not an honest person and that troubled me a lot uh there are all kinds of where he was not honest um but the two that I’ll just mention briefly the one will be talking about a bit which is the shut door U nickel wrote a ton on that and he claimed that he used all the original sources and Source

Documentation which is absolutely not true he he deliberately deceived his audience and that troubled me a great deal as I found how true that was and the other was that I’ll mention uh the amalgamation of man and Beast and Ellen White’s racist statements there and nickel went out of his way to cover that up to try to make it sound like she wasn’t racist when she clearly was racist uh everyone knew she was racist it was right at the time of the Civil War she was about ready to get thrown out of the church from what she had said um so Uriah Smith desperately wrote a

Saving pamphlet explaining what she supposedly meant and uh he explained this in great detail and it took the heat off her as far as the blacks in the Civil War were concerned but it was still a very racist pamphlet and uh both Ellen and James endorsed what uh Smith said they sold his books and and this got Ellen off the hook but it was still very much a racist explanation FD nickel knew that good and well and he deliberately covered it up and came up with a completely different theory that was nothing to do with what Ellen believed or thought or wrote so that

Troubled me a lot and obviously most aan apologists aren’t anywhere near in FD Nichols class as far as intelligence study the man wrote thousands and thousands of pages as an apologist and um so he’s the hero that most of the evanst apologists go to and feed from his trough but um what I find with most apologists I run into is that they strain it an n and swallow a camel they use ad ad hominum arguments against you or they don’t address the big picture they try to pick out some little thing and make a big deal of it uh as I looked over Kevin’s looked at Kevin’s webcast on my

Book um the struct me you know that he was straining at a net and swallowing a camel he he made a big deal over me referring to uh you know small things in the book that were really um ridiculous you know I I as I look back at it um I can’t help but say Ron grael is someone I know personally and he was listed in the book as assistant director of the white estate well that’s exactly what he was was he he’s called assistant secretary or assistant director Arthur white was the secretary or the director um but Kevin made a big deal as if I didn’t know what I was talking about and Ron uh

Agreed to that description of him in the book he was on my reading committee so to try to say I didn’t know who Ron was or I didn’t know what his title was I just found that very disingenuous and uh there were several other examples I can use but we can talk about him as we go can’t hear you thank you for that Steve with that said let’s now interact with some of this and break the ice first things first Kevin you took a objection to a claim that Steve made regarding Joseph Bates seven-year Theory I want to play a clip of that and then look at the quote you referenced in

Steve’s book then the floor will be open for both of you to interact on it so let’s listen in she descri describes here or he describes here about um at this time Joseph Bates had not formulated his seven-year Theory which would predict that the second coming would occur on October 22 1851 a theory which whites would accept as we have shown well he didn’t show it and that’s one of my big concerns is that he showed that she believed that Jesus was coming soon but never anything specific about a seven-year Theory and in fact she had a vision before the Fulfillment

Of the 1851 time period in which she was shown that they would be disappointed and that got James back on track before the event actually took place we do have documentary evidence on that all right so I’m 100 go ahead okay the quote you referenced Kevin is from page 119 which reads as follows quote at this time Joseph Bates had not formulated his 7-year Theory which would predict that the second coming would occur on October 22nd 1851 a theory which the whites would accept as we have shown as Ellen White would confirm through vision M close quote so I’m not saying it was

Nefarious but I’m not sure why you left off the last part of the sentence uh in your video clip Kevin either way I just wanted to make sure the entirety of the claim was shown so Steve you were referring back to chapter four and five in your book when you say you proved this claim Kevin disagrees and says you only showed where she said Jesus is coming soon never anything specific about endorsing the seven-year Theory and the Camden New York vision of 1851 was uh referred to to help support this let’s hear your response to this and then the floor will be open for both of

You to go back and forth sure I’m 100% familiar with the quotes on both sides um I find that the apologists are typically not familiar with the quotes that uh demonstrate that Ellen was indeed um buying into to baates Theory and uh we know for a fact James initially was pretty sympathetic to it but by 1849 he was starting to distance himself from it and him and Ellen were actually seeing it from a different perspective and uh James wanted to move in a mission oriented Direction even in as early as 1849 but Ellen was still strongly believing that

Um you know this uh seven-year theory was going to materialize let me just share some of the quotes as to why I say I believe that this is demonstrated in the source documentation first in January 31 1849 to those who are receiving the Seal of the Living God I saw it was the will of God that the Saints should cut loose of every encumbrance dispose of their houses lands before the time of Trouble Comes um very shortly after this she says it’s only three months before the time of trouble is going to begin and I’ll read that quote she prophesied that the time of trouble was only three

Months away and and they are to make a covenant with God by sacrifice I saw they should sell if they laid their property on the Altar and earnestly inquired for Duty so she’s tell people telling people to sell their hom sell their property sell their possessions that the time is that close let me read three more statements here right from the same time period early writing 64 in have you given me June 27 1850 my accompanying angel said time is almost finished do you reflect the lovely image of Jesus as you should then I pointed to Earth and saw there would have to be a

Getting ready among those who have a vo embrace the third Angel’s message she said Get Ready Get Ready Get Ready you have to die a greater death to the world than you have died I saw that there was a great work to do for them and but little time in which to do it she continues some of us have had time to get the truth and to advance step by step and every step that we have taken has given us strength to take the next but time is almost finished and what we have had years to learn they will have to learn in a few months they will also have much to unlearn and much to learn

Again so why in the world is she’s saying they have three months here um which fits perfectly with the seven-year Theory because she’s saying the time of trouble is going to begin in three months and that was to last less than a year which would fit perfectly with the October 22 1851 date are you are you familiar with uh with when that was actually written yes I was it was 62750 no it was it was written in 49 no the the June 2750 is the date of the three-month one uh the other one the first one I read was in 1849 yes okay the last two I read were

June 27 1850 the third one this is the last time Ellen makes a shutd door statement and I’ll tell you why this is the last time and this is 18 June 21 1851 she said I saw that Jesus prayed for his enemies but that should not cause to pray for the Wicked World whom God has rejected when he prayed for his enemies there was hope for them and they could be benefited and saved by his prayers and also after he was a mediator in the outer apartment of the whole world but now his spirit and sympathy were withdrawn from the world and our sympathy must be with Jesus and must be

Withdrawn from the ungodly present tense now this is the last shutd door statement she makes and the reason that she shuts off early before the October 22 1851 date is because she was expecting the time of trouble to come and by the summer of 1851 she could see the time of trouble had not come everything was just the way it had been her predictions had fallen flat uh she was a false prophet and now she had to do reparations she had to try to figure out how in the heck am I going to deal with this so this is when she starts making these other statements um august 19 1851 I have

Never stated or written that the world will be doomed or damned I never have under any circumstance used this language to anyone however sinful I have ever had messages of reproof for those who use such harsh Expressions well that’s just a direct lie for seven years she had been saying that uh probation had closed that the wicked were lost that God had judged the world um and now she’s trying to say she never made any statements like this at all which is just completely untrue and um you know Steve let’s let’s there there’s a lot of good stuff there I want to make sure

Kevin has a good amount of time to respond to that um so let’s let’s halt there and then we can pick the the back and forth back up but Kevin I want to hear your or let you have the floor to to respond to some of that yeah everything that you’ve given you you have been able to kind of put it together in your mind and it makes good sense for what you’re saying and in your book you said it was consistent with and I would say I can understand why you would say it’s consistent with but the burden of proof is to to show in any way that she she has written or that James

Has written that they identified with the 7year theory because that that is the contention you can you can prove that she believed it was the time was short and I will agree with you within the first year 1845 they did believe that he would come within the the that that period and that was that was the concurred and agreed upon uh view of those who accepted the bridegroom uh Theory to explain why Christ did not come recently I took U all of the issues of the Jubilee standard and I wanted to say this to you by the way your book has stimulated me

To do deeper a deeper dive on this subject because I never thought that I would even need to I didn’t I didn’t see the need to but but because you have brought these things out and because you are very efficient I I do like the way that you you footnote it’s a lot easier than a lot of formulations of of footnotes it was easier for me to look things up but when I when I started reading there are the reason why you may think of it as nitpicking I’m what I’m pointing out is that if you have carefully placed points of Truth and all of those truth all of

Those points are accurate then you come together and you can formulate a a proper conclusion but if you generalize too quickly without being very clear about those different points then you may actually skew it slightly it’s like putting a puzzle together you have to have all of the pieces so I went back and I transcribed and edited all of the Jubilee standards that’s available and I looked at it and I realized that there was a tendency of people in that first year including um Israel Damon you’re probably familiar with that name um Hira medson that he he wrote for the Jubilee

Standard but Ellen White did not she was Ellen Harmon obviously and James White did not but there is a there’s a a finer point on the distinction between them and that’s what I want to show here so if we can go to the full screen uh miles and I’m you have to you’ll have to share your screen again since your internet dropped if you were wondering earlier folks while he gets that set up if you were wondering earlier why there was some uh screen malfunction it was just due to a little bit of a tech issue um but no worries he is back so you will just need to share your screen again

Kevin okay cool all right here we go this is the earlier earlier statement where where Steve points out about the seven-year Theory the second one was like like it said a reference back to the the proofs and I was just going through a number of of things that did not seem accurate to me based on what I had studied so uh it was not that that presentation I was not a point BYO reputation of what was in it it was just a couple of points that came that popped out when I was reading that particular chapter but so I’ve gone back to document this and and so that it’s in his words but

For our purposes in this chapter Bates was also responsible for convincing James and Ellen White to embrace the seven-year Theory which would once again set a date for the end of the world this time on October 22 1851 so then we have the the question is is there sufficient evidence to say that they entirely bought in on the seven years Theory that’s the point that has to be proved so from there I’m going to uh go to the next statement and this is this is a running uh commentary by Douglas Morgan on his article uh we’ll get the reference at the end but he says bat’s

Contemplation of the details of the sanctuary service in the day of atonement led him to a momentous conclusion the pre-advent Judgment that began in October o uh October 1844 would last seven years and thus in October 1851 Jesus will be gathering in the Harvest with his sickle on the White Cloud now here’s where I agree with you Steve on this um you said he had you know at a certain point Bates didn’t have this Theory you know Bates theory he didn’t come out with it in in 45 he didn’t come out with in 46 it wasn’t until 1850 that he came up with this

Idea of seven years so we’re in agreement we’re in agreement that Bates is the source of the seven-year Theory you and I agree on that and um as far as I could tell from dou Douglas he uh he goes on to say when it was published he made his case in an explanation of the typical and antitypical Sanctuary a 16-page pamphlet published in March 1850 the last of the seven Works he issued from New Bedford starting in 1846 but then he this is his conclusion from it both Ellen and James White sharply opposed this claim now we’re going to go to the evidence for that Doug came to

The conclusion that that was the case we he and I got uh talked about this recently and the basis for saying that the uh pamphlet was published in March is the fact that he left where it was published and he was traveling up in Canada east and I had seen those articles when I was looking through some of the early Publications so it had to be published where he was until uh before he went up there so March is probably right um based on that but he his conclusion is that they were sharply opposed to the claim um and in the review and Herald xtrap published

Uh July 21st 1851 that the third Angels message should not be hung on time for time will never be a test again that’s what I had at the bottom of my screen she had this particular particular message in July but that’s not the only one the passage of time itself would have overthrown bat’s position but he apparently ceased promoting his theory before that happened okay all right Kevin let’s let’s give oh go ahead just let me finish the quote and then then we can go back after Ellen’s article in July and another repudiation from James in August interest died down with no buildup of

Anticipation heading into October over now I don’t know if you’ve studied this part and would agree with that part um but the part where we disagree is whether Ellen and James did buy into that theory that’s where you and I disagree disagree here here’s the difference I the quotes you’ve given fit perfectly with my understanding and Theory the quotes I’m giving do not fit with yours you explain to me and I’ll I’ll let you know that wrong Gra supported what I’m saying here he was questioning Ellen’s buying end of the seven-year Theory and I showed him hey

Why in the world is she saying three months here why is she saying the time of trouble’s going to specifically start in three months which fits perfectly within the time of trouble ending in uh October 22 1851 based on the things she said about the time of trouble uh and and grael admitted yes uh fair enough you’re right um she does say she does say few months but then then you know in this vaunted book of uh nicholl’s he he points out that she repeats that same statement in 54 yeah and that’s another problem is that um so if it if it was specific to

The seven-year Theory how would it have any validity after that because she still makes all kinds of stupid date setting statements after 1851 which is really quite interesting you’d think she would have learned her lesson after how many times she screwed up um okay it was let’s go let’s go to her the evidence of of some other statements if you don’t mind I I want to hear your explanation for that a few month three month statement what what is your explanation of it why did she said she did believe it was soon but she did not set but she did not buy

Into a specific Theory and that was what I said in my video gonna start in three months which she did not say three months well a few months almost everyone would say a few months and three months are synonymous so let’s go to let’s go to the quotes and I will answer your question how about that okay can we go go to the quotes let’s go to the quotes yeah all right okay she says different times were set for the Lord to come and were urged upon the Brethren but the Lord showed me that they would pass by for the time of trouble must come before the coming of

Christ and that every time that was set and passed would only weaken the faith of God’s people now this is in Spring of 1845 so this is the first statement where she makes the claim that we shouldn’t be setting times so this is this is a pattern when you see a pattern it should help you to make a better uh evaluation okay that’s the first one that’s in 45 because as I read through the Jubilee standard they they in the Jubilee standard they predicted that he would come in Passover time and there there are numerous authors that pointed to that and then when he didn’t come at

Passover then they would set another one they said well he should come by October of 45 and she’s saying all of this time uh setting of times is only going to bring uh uh discouragement on the people and weaken the faith of God’s people so that’s in 45 now we’re going to move on okay may we should just stop we should stop right there because she said a time that Christ would return by the end of June 1845 that shows you what a mixed up young lady she was she’s saying no time here but then uh she sets a time that the Lord will return by the end of June

1845 when she I I’ve never seen such a statement Steve I’m going to show it to you okay and now and you’re and you’re going to verify that she says by the end of June the Lord will come or is it is it a more generalized and also when she’s confronted about that oh I misunderstood it was in the language of Canaan you’re not going to quote her you’re going to quote somebody else I know the statement you’re talking about bck who was her closest friend she was not her together they were close they were extremely close friends until they were not left that relationship because

Ellen was repeatedly proven wrong yeah okay well hold on just a second on that on that on that point okay I I’ll let you bring the the quotation out but they there is no evidence they were close friends statement traveled together constantly both before and after and got married they did not they did not they did no there’s no evidence for it yes there is the statement the statement that you use to to back that is somebody else’s evaluation of Burdick’s own statement berdick does not say she was close friends quing it it’s berdick quoting it to Miles Grant who put it in

His book but she did not say they were close friends it’s an i i i it’s in one of my videos she said put it in one of my videos and I didn’t know that we were gonna have to deal with this tonight said that she Trav with Ellen both before and after she did not she did not I’ll read it you know she did not she what verdict said was I became acquainted with Ellen White in 1845 maybe to help just facilitate a little bit here to make sure both sides are being heard Kevin I think his claim is not that lucenda either verbatim said I was a friend of alen white but he is

Saying it can be deduced based on the fact that clearly if you’re traveling around with somebody you’re more than just an acquaintance exactly but but okay the the idea that she’s a friend comes from the word acquaint that she became acquainted and the fact the the description of her traveling around with her is not backed up by any other statement and in fact her own statement she does not say that she traveled around with her she’s not from the same town in Maine who Ellen White did know and who is related to her is her first husband John Howell and I have tracked

His life I I even got uh Lucinda bick’s um uh madeen name found out the town that she she grew up in um where they got married all of that I put into in a video so there it’s it’s a it’s a a supposition that they were well known and that they traveled the ones that I can that I can document who traveled with her were the files James White Sarah uh ell Ellen White’s sister and then one other brother that she mentioned and those are ones that traveled uh Israel Damon traveled now she may have gone to one of the places where she was but she was not

A traveling companion with Ellen White there is no evidence that that backs that point up now she may have she may have crossed paths with her so what I’m what I’m trying to just trying to say she she may have been at one of the places where she was but she did not travel with her that is not her claim she heard Ste Steve let’s hear your response to that she heard the statement she heard Ellen White’s response to them are you just saying that she made all this stuff up that Ellen White never said this stuff is that your position it’s it is hearsay based on a later

Statement not on an early statement it is her in the description and I and I point this out the language indicates that she is she is acquainted with Ellen White and she knows of these things but is not it is not her talking with Ellen White that’s not the statement that that she makes it’s here her directly hearing Ellen White respond to these questions why did the Lord first of all I mean look at the context here Ellen’s First Vision in December of 1844 how does it start out the Lord showed me the day and hour of his coming but she never announced it well and when

She was either and when she was no man knows himself so how’s God gonna show Ellen the day and the hour I mean that she said when she came out of vision somebody asked her if she if she knew she said I don’t remember what he said so it was with it was if you if you will follow the vision she’s describing a chronology of what takes place before Christ comes and she says as we get close to the end he announces the day and the hour she’s not saying that she got some message that she forgot she is describing the chronology of what took place all right could we go

To the next slide we heard the voice of God like many Waters which gave us the day and hour of Jesus coming that’s that’s the narrative yeah that’s the narrative people asking her so people are asking her hey when’s he gon to come you got the day or the hour going here and so she said I don’t know he gets this other Vision claiming he’s GNA come by June of 1845 and then when that fails she gets confronted again and and she says no I misunderstood it was in the language of Canan uh it was actually the second planning so it will be in September of

This year and that passes again and she’s wrong again I mean when you go back I mean let’s go back to Donald cas’s new book where he shows was involved with dat setting all through the millerite time as well I mean she was involved in all kinds of date setting I I I understand that you accept that that’s good evidence I do not you don’t think and and I have Jan Andrews who was a close associate well Miss berdick was not she didn’t come from the same town she didn’t live in the in the towns she didn’t travel we have Jay and Andrews in a statement that

He makes and he said there was never an announcement of any kind of a day or an hour that he knew of we also have Maran Stow who was a lifelong friend of Ellen White she was also in Paris she knew her we have the dates when they met we have conversations that she has described she was a close associate of Ellen White and she was with her on a number of different occasions on different Visions she’s one of multiple Witnesses for those Visions so the quality of the testimony is much stronger for the one who was there on numerous occasions with her who was a close confident with her

And who wrote about it later so I I can present I I didn’t know that I was going to need to present these these articles but they are in my new book I have amassed these testimonies that respond to these issues and I thank you for bringing them up so that I can respond to them but here we have only a secondary source Miss berdick who is giving this in at earliest 1874 it’s republished by Miles Grant later okay but it’s the earliest is 1874 and she is recollecting something her husband John Howell was such a notorious uh competitor with Ellen White

That he traveled where she was and Miles Grant also traveled where she was to speak against her so they they they do have a clear bias we know they have a bias and when you do history you have to take into account the bias of the of the witness all right so in hold hold on hold on hold on yeah let’s let’s let Steve respond to some of that because I just don’t want it to get too buried and too lost hold that thought and then actually after this we’re going to come back up on this I want to play another clip from your broadcast Kevin but it’s on the same

Same topic and so save that for that period Steve um Say What You Need to to that and then like I said I want to play that next clip yeah miles Grant obviously wasn’t a pro Ellen white person no one’s trying to claim he was but but berdick was she was a friend she did travel with Ellen she was in the churches she talks about how this June Vision that Ellen had was accepted and received in all the churches that they went to um you know you’re you’re you’re acting like she didn’t even hardly know Ellen White when she she did here’s firsthand what Ellen said it was it was

Spoken in the churches all over and and you’re acting like oh she came up with this in 1874 no she remembered this clearly from the 1840s when she was with Ellen and Miles knew her then too he happens to write his book several years later but he knew her this was documented in the 40s this is not like some ancient memory the way Ellen White comes up with you know and when she denies all her shut door statements in 1874 and 1883 yet when you take the source document statements themselves between 1844 and 1851 she’s saying the most ridiculous shut door stuff you can

Imagine and then she completely denies it in 1874 and 1883 and nickel takes makes those later statements as if they’re the source documentation this is the kind of stuff I have to put up with with Adventist apologist well you you are you’re I think that that bias makes a difference for both of us because you’re willing to take her um a statement from 1874 and I am going back to 1845 and I am going to 1850 for these specific statements and that’s what I would like to bring up because you have brought it up I I’m going to look up Andrew’s statement so that um

While while you’re doing that Kevin not you don’t rely on me but on what he actually declares so I’m going to while while you’re looking that up I’m gonna I’m going to play the next clip here because I want to keep things we got some some more stuff obviously tonight to look at I love the the back and forth I love the dialogue here um I want to play another clip though from your video Kevin um that is still in the same vein and then uh I will see you guys on the other side another matter is the issue of the shut door which he fails to understand

He says that in her first Vision she says that probation had closed that’s a misunderstanding of what the shut door is about what they came to understand the shut door to being was that there are two apartments in the Heavenly sanctuary as Hebrews says it’s in the Greek that it’s multi compartmental it’s holy places anyway in the first Vision she refers to the 144,000 that sets the bar pretty high for how many people should be ready for Jesus when he comes at its maximum the Advent movement has about 50,000 and certainly far fewer after the disappointment so the first Vision

Actually points forward to a greater work probation hadn’t closed but people had made up their mind and those who fell off the pathway none of them got back up on the pathway for the Midnight Cry she was right so I feel badly for the author writing a book that’s based on so many assumptions he should have consulted some more people before he published he has a a group of people and he refers to them in the front of the book and ostensibly they looked at this but they didn’t catch these major glaring errors that I have just mentioned and so many

More and he describes Ron grael as the associate director of the white estate he mentioned that twice he never was the associate director all right he wasn’t he wasn’t sorry we we’ll get to that get to that again in a moment but Steve he claims that you don’t understand what the shut door was about and you provided no evidence like we said in the previous clip uh in your book to support that Ellen White had a vision regarding it and that you make basic errors such as claiming that Ron Gra bill was the associate director of the white estate when he never was apparently and that

All those errors call into question your scholarship and reliability let’s hear your response to this and then Kevin you can jump back in and you guys can get back into this General topic of the shut door I mean we can just read the shut door quotes which I think we need to do but um you know something people need to keep in mind who are watching this is cognitive dissonance is something that causes people to hold on to false beliefs and I’ve had all the same beliefs that Kevin has had I was raised up in adventism I was taught all the stuff about Ellen White I went to

Adventist schools I went into the Adventist Ministry uh he he’s accusing me of bias it’s not bias to come to realize over many many years as you’ve studied as you’ve done a master’s thesis in history on Ellen White as you’ve done two doctoral dissertations as you’ve taught adven history for at least 15 years um and and continually studied this stuff hey I was taught wrong stuff you know that’s it takes a lot of gut to go against what you were brainwashed with what you were taught uh the cognitive dissonance is so strong oh I got to keep my job I got to stay in the

Church I got you know there’s a million reasons why people want to believe what they’re told in a cultic environment and uh you know adventism has never been open and honest about its history it’s always covered it up it’s always lighted about it as I said FD nickel completely ignored shutd door documents that we’re going to look at right here uh that are damning documents to him he completely leaves them out when he knew good and well that they were there that’s really sad you know and he’s deceiving a whole you know millions of people through his

Books by doing this it’s it’s unacceptable to say the least and um you know it takes a lot more study and research to change your mind when you’ve been inundated with this kind of thinking over years than to just confirm confirmation bias if you want to talk about bias what you have is confirmation bias it’s simply confirming what you were told all your life and uh you know you want to believe that because you had good feelings about Ellen White when you were a kid and so did I but I overcame that confirmation bias it takes a lot of work and study and research to overcome

Confirmation bias the person who overcomes confirmation bias has a lot more credibility than the person who just spouts confirmation bias I I would you know first of all respond by saying that Kevin let’s hear your thoughts to that and then I know Steve wants to read some quotes and then I think there’s something that you wanted to bring up on screen as well I’m trying to keep track of all those things so things don’t get lost but let’s hear a couple minute response there to what Steve has just said well let let um okay I’ll do that first but you’re you’re using kind of AD

Hominin sort of stuff here and I want to deal with the evidence FD nickel may be a place where I would start to look but he’s not my authority I did my own research I’ve done like tiny Egghead pinheaded little detail stuff that some of my fellow Adventist historians say you’re you know you go real real shallow real on that one that point you’re really going deep into that one point because I nail it nail it down Michael Campbell good friend of mine uh he said Kevin when people look at your book they may not agree with your conclusions but you showed them all your work and that’s

What I do so we can disagree but I want to show my work and so that’s what I want to look at not how many years you’ve you’ve taught or how much experience you have obviously you’re you have a lot of background and I’m not as old as you are but these gray hairs say that I’m old enough here’s what I want to look at and that is this is the testimony let’s let’s go ahead and bring up on the screen I’m just this is just my document that will it’s an adjunct to my book my new book is going to be called glory glory glory and it’s on Ellen White’s earliest writings so I have the

Documentation of each of the the parts in it I I identify people hundreds of people some that have never been identified before I’ve done uh genealogical research on it to to nail all of these things down so I’m I’m this is this is the area that I am deep in at the moment I haven’t published the book yet and this will be a secondary uh exhibit because I uh the publisher didn’t want such a big a long book so this one will be available on uh the Academia um website I’ll just I’ll just flip that up here just so you can see it here on Southern it’s this this is the

Link for it right there and um Jubilee standard this is where I was uh I put in some of this material so this is all the documentation I put it here making it available all right so let’s let’s shrink that back down and we’ll go here and let me let me zoom in a little bit on it so it’s a little bit larger text for everybody to be able to see this is a testimony written in 1874 the same time that Miles Grant wrote his his book or his first actually it wasn’t the book it was this was published in the in their paper and then he published the book okay so in 8

1874 this is JN Andrews a very careful scholar by anybody standards who he talks about his acquaintance with Ellen White in the summer of 1844 I’ve been intimately acquainted with her ever since conversent with her course there’s no nobody that would question whether Jay and Andrews knew her and here’s his statement I do not believe the statement to be truthful that she claimed to have seen that Christ would come in June 1845 it certainly did not come to my knowledge though such must have been the the case had it been true it is not true that this prediction was published in

The Hope in Portland 1845 so that’s the evidence take it as you will and and um and then when we go to the other um issues when we talk about the the finer points of what does the shut door mean we cannot wave a magic wand or or or gloss over distinctions because there are differences of view and as I have studied this early period of millerite History we see millerites a various Stripes I’m sure you’re familiar with some of them you know the the the conference that decided they weren’t going to do foot washing those that that believed in the the shut door those that

Didn’t believe in a shut door those there there were multiple different groups that were coming out and the one that James and Ellen White are with accepted the bridegroom accepted the shut door but their view changed now within the documentation for this this pamphlet you know well it’s 125 pages I will agree with you that James White very early in 1845 held the kind of shutd door view that you’re describing I will agree with you on that because in his letter he talks about doing a funeral service for um Maran Davis’s aunt she died her name was Marian and he went to do the funeral

Service he preached the the the hope of the the resurrection from the Adventist point of view and he knew that the people there probably would not receive it and he referred to them as as like casting your Pearls Before Swine but he was going to give his his his testimony anyway so in early 1845 I will agree with you that James White agreed with had that view but the question is whether Ellen White’s Visions have that same view and when we look carefully at them there is a distinction now let me go to hold hold up Kevin there’s kind of a lot there so we want to make sure that

Steve remembers all this I I don’t want everything to get lost so Steve let’s hear your response to that essentially to to summarize Kevin is essentially saying that again there is not evidence and the evidence he he says you’ve presented is essentially not sound lucenda bick’s testimony is not sound but there’s no evidence that Ellen White actually affirmed the seven-year Theory and that your understanding of what the shut door is is incorrect so let’s hear your let yeah and let’s hear your your response to that and the quotes that you want to read to uh show why you would

Disagree with this I mean first of all I already said that I can fit all the quotes we’ve looked at including Ellen White’s denials into my theory very easily um Kevin cannot fit in the a few months three months however you want to word that that’s a very specific thing saying that the time of trouble’s going to start in a few months um that’s a very specific thing he can’t explain it Ron grael can’t explain it uh there’s no one I’ve heard who’s an Adventist who can explain that um it it fits perfectly with the seven-year Theory oh is that just a coincidence I don’t think so um

Why in the world would she say the angel showed her a few months if the angel didn’t show her that um but and and now he says he wants to take JN Andrew’s testimony who wasn’t there in 1845 who wasn’t an eyewitness he wasn’t there when Ellen White made the statement but lucenda berdick was she heard it with her own ear she heard it preached in the churches and uh she was an eyewitness that’s a firsthand account Jay and Andrews is just saying oh I don’t think that happened oh I don’t care what you think Jan Andrews your jobs dependent on pleasing the whites I mean read

Gilbert’s it’s unbelievable Gilbert Valentine’s recent book on JN Andrews over 750 Pages goes into great detail and he shows how the whites treated these younger people like absolute dirt and he’s an Adventist you know Theologian still keeping his job and uh you know he goes into how Ellen confirmed James terrible abuse Behavior by visions and Jen Andrews was one of the victims of those um you know these these young Adventists were kept in line by James and Ellen and James was very mean-spirited he did a lot of stuff that was unacceptable Ellen confirmed it by

Visions it’s all in Gilbert you know uh his book and if you don’t if you haven’t read that you need to read it but um I’m just saying I have read I have read your book and understand that that’s how you see it I do understand that’s how you see it well let’s hear Steve let’s let’s hear the shut door quotes that you mentioned as well I just I don’t want those to be forgotten yeah and and and his statement about what lucenda says it it you because you have come to a certain conclusion even her statement I hear you shaping it slightly in a way that it doesn’t say because we’re we

Don’t have the statement in front of us and that’s why I want to go to the exact statements and to see to read it out of my book yeah that would be fine okay just a minute let’s go to these shut door ones because they’re right here in my hand yeah because I haven’t finished my case for whether she she said a date yet remember we’re still holding on to that yeah and and I would really strongly recommend you read Donald casbolt two new books because he absolutely shreds Ellen anyone who wants I’ve read part of his book I’m I’m busy on my own so I haven’t

Read everybody else’s yet I am working my way through yours taking notes and um and these are just some of the first chapters I’ve you know so I mean if I’m trying to keep up you have you have to do a lot of reading if you’re gonna be a historian yeah if you’re gonna write a book on Ellen White early experience you better be very familiar with Cas Bolt’s books because the stuff he says is so damning to Ellen and so damning to adventism that there’s you know it just absolutely wipes her out where millerism is concerned and that’s and and he also

Goes into all the date setting that was done there which I heard you deny on that little webcast you did it was completely untrue I’ve got more quotes it when we can get to them well let’s hear Steve let’s hear hear these quotes and then anything you need to add after that and then Kevin you can you guys can go back and forth right her first Vision um Kevin saying because she mentioned the 144,000 that this can’t be a shuto vision we know good and well it was a shutd door Vision she plagarized it from Joseph Turner um Turner had written the major work on the shut door it was in

Ellen’s home she claimed she didn’t read it read it but after her vision Turner asked her what she had said she told him and he said that’s exactly what was in my paper so you know you decide for yourself if she read the paper or not but could I respond could I respond to that point Steve you you’ll have a second Uh Kevin let’s let’s him just finish the quotes we’re gonna put a put a marker there about that paper okay go ahead it was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the city as all the Wicked World which God had rejected that seems pretty clear to

Me God had rejected the Wicked World doesn’t that isn’t that she said right that’s that door that’s what do you disagree with that that God rejects the Wicked World I I totally disagree with it when it’s when probation hasn’t closed I know but do you reject do you do you think that God does not reject the Wicked World ultimately he rejects the wicked world but he doesn’t reject the world war before probation closes she’s saying probation has closed because he has rejected all the Wicked World that how else do you come up with that otherwise he’s just prejudging them and

They never have a chance to change but these are people that have made a decision that’s what that’s her Point what even if people have made a decision they can still change their mind we believe in Freedom of Choice your idea thatone fell off the path they can’t get on the path again are you some kind of predestinarian or something I mean no I’m I’m referring to the specific wording of the statement this this is clearly seen as a shut door statement by any objective I understand to a certain degree you there’s a there is a a a choice that was made but it’s

In the quotations we’ll get to that later okay let’s go to the next one letter 31 1847 letter of Ellen White in the L Lou SDA Heritage room Pages 49 to 51 at the time I had the vision of the Midnight Cry her first Vision I had given it up in the past and thought at Future the shut door as also most of the band had I know not what was in Joseph Turner’s paper I knew he had one out and one was in our house but I knew not what was in it for I had not read a word of it this is typical Ellen White she’s always denying that she read the stuff that she copied from over and over and

Over again after I had the vision and God gave me light he bade me deliver it to the band but I shrank I was young I thought they would not receive it the very next morning Joseph Turner called he said he was in haste going and leaving the city for in a short time and wanted that I should tell him all the Lord had shown me in Vision it was with fear and trembling I told him after I had finished he said he had told out the same the last evening in his paper so no it wasn’t a paper that’s not a paper he he was he go ahead say what you’re saying on

The subject of what was in his paper and and so ell and so Ellen White claims she never read the paper but she just happened to have a vision of exactly what he was writing and speaking on I mean come on believe that believe it with with all due with all due respect Steve I think you’re misunderstanding which paper has that in it the paper you’re referring to is not the one one that is cited as having his testim that testimony he had told it just the night before he had just come to that position when he left town he went to Boston he shared with SS snow

And he had a paper published that does have that new view in it the paper that was published that was in her home was published in dece December and this was January by the time that he published so the paper that you’re referring to that you you have understood to be the one that she that that corresponds does not correspond number two did you see the paper that was in her house you don’t have the paper that was in her house I don’t either but it was common knowledge that Joseph Turner was pushing the shut door View and he was writing and speak speaking on it

That’s what he was obsessed with it this time not in not until January when he went to tell SS no it’s very important to have all the particular if it wasn’t until January why did he tell her this is what I spoke about last night because he had just come up with that view you said it wasn’t until January that is January I mean you’re not making any sense Turner was known all right let’s let’s give let’s give the let’s give let us give the um let us give the chronology Ellen White had her vision the latter part of December she uh the but the and the paper that

You’re referring to that nobody knows what’s in it because it doesn’t exist anymore was published in December before the vision he went and together uh with with what was his name Barnett they were they published this new paper it is the new paper that um um Miller William Miller cites when he tells about this new view of the bridegroom he does not site the one that that was published this other thing it’s a onetime publication there was there was only one issue of it that they published it and it was that that he took and republished it is what William Miller

Cites he does not cite something from December he cites the one that was published in Boston and that is the one that is later so she says I know there was a paper in my house I didn’t read it I don’t know what was in it because I didn’t read it and he does not refer to the paper he didn’t refer to the paper I understand how you think about it but he did not refer to the paper he referred to what he said at the meeting and if you read the full context of that statement she did not go because she was afraid that all of the people would disagree with that view because at that

Time they believed that October 22 had no significance whatsoever this was the new view and the bridegroom View that comes from him was was dispersed by SS snow and then you see it in the mid in some of the different magazines but SSN was the editor of the Jubilee standard so what you’re saying you’re saying that you don’t know what was in that paper that was in the white home but you know it wasn’t about the shut door that’s what you’re saying is that cor because it’s not the one it is not the one that is cited it doesn’t matter if it was cited or not

He wrote a bunch of stuff and and a different thing could have been cited later but this is what he was pushing like mad at this time you have an assumption you have an assumption that it’s there you cannot show that it’s there I can show you you cannot show that it wasn’t there and and well then then you have not then you have no proof you cannot show that it wasn’t there but what we do know but I can show you what they do site but what we do know Turner says to her that’s exactly what I said last night right and if she wasn’t there would she know what

He said last night if because she got it in a vision and that’s why it was a surprise this is the aous thing that God just happened to give you know what Dennis 14 recently said at the Ellen White meetings in in uh October of last year are you are you familiar with what he was quoted as saying in those meetings I I I don’t know he said that he was so devastated when he found out for himself through his own study of Milton’s Paradise loss that 80 to 90% of great controversy was taken directly from it titles outline Etc 14 is the top Ellen White scholar in the Adventist

Church today um you know you have to face reality here someday uh you can’t just keep playing I’ve done extensive study on great controversy I’ve done extensive comparisons you can go to my website uh to to Academia and download the papers where I put them side by side I have done that study I have done that than Dennis 14 and you’re you’re saying that his testimony there not ACC we collaborated together on steps to Christ my footnotes went into his his book I have worked with Denny so you’re saying he doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he said 80

To 90% of great controversy I can’t argue I can’t argue in with Denny for10 In Absentia you know I am what I’m disagreeing with is what you’re saying and I don’t know that he actually said that well he’s qu I do believe that that’s how you understand it I believe that you are absolutely sincere I don’t think you’re trying to deceive people this isn’t an article in Adventist today so it’s not like hearsay or something okay well I you know I can look that up but but our viewers can’t see it so Jim Walter three-part uh article just just finished recently in

Adven today and Dennis 14 is quoted in there saying this about Ellen white great controversy and Milton’s Paradise Lost it’s it’s Denny Denny Fon and I will look it up okay I don’t all right but let’s let’s get back to the documentation so the point that I am making is that you have made conclusions you have drawn conclusions I understand why you have drawn the conclusions parts of what you’re saying I fully agree with there are on the documentary evidence I have stated clearly what I agree with you on but I have also given you the evidence that explains why I disagree

With your conclusion yeah and I don’t I don’t mind if you disagree with me that doesn’t bother me at all I I mind if you mis represent me on your webcast which I felt that you did badly but um because you disagree agreeably let’s try not to interrupt uh Gentlemen Just because the audience when when we do that it actually cancels out audio and there’s nothing okay sorry go ahead go ahead Steve all right let’s continue through these shut door statements um selected messages to 34 and 35 after the passing of time in 1844 fanaticism arose I went into their meetings there was much

Excitement with noise and confusion some appeared to be Invision and fell to the floor as the result of fanatical movements such as I’ve described persons in no way responsible for them have in some cases lost their reason they could not harmonize the scenes of excitement and tumult with their own past precious experience they were pressed beyond measure to receive the message of air it was represented to them that unless they did this they would be lost and as a result their mind was unbalanced and some became insane Ellen goes on to say that during

The same period She experienced a number of visions and filled of the floor often and such mental turmoil that for two weeks my mind wandered and experienced that she would later refer to her extreme sickness therefore Ellen felt a certain empathy for the many inmates of insane asylums who were brought there by their experiences similar to her own that’s just talking about some of these charismatic extremes that were connected with all this disappointment dat setting stuff um Ellen White 1849 manuscript release 593 present truth August 1849 I was shown the Commandments of God

And the testimony of Jesus Christ relating to the shut door could not be separated my accompanying Angel bade me look for the travail of soul for Sinners as it used to be I looked but could not see it for the time of their salvation is passed that’s pretty clear this is all the way back in 1849 the time of their salvation is passed they can’t be saved because I’m going to present the other evidence and I’m glad that you have present how do you explain that evidence is what I want to know if there if we can get to the quotations I will I mean if the time of

Their salvation is passed it’s passed but we know it wasn’t passed Ellen White was not telling the truth a manuscript are you so shall I take a shot at the at the quotations to deal with that particular one or do you want to read want to do it as we go through them it’s fine with me that way okay well let’s let’s go to the screen miles if you don’t mind we’ve I I need to do some catchup because these are the ones about specific date setting because the the the the statement that we are debating is did she set dates and so I want to present this as evidence you have

Presented General evidence that she believed that it was soon you have presented evidence that said uses the language of few few months and that you say fits within that that framework okay that are we on agreement on that that that’s what you’ve stated all right so let’s let’s take a look at her statements in 1850 I saw that God had not made a test of time since 1844 and that time never again will be a test so she’s she makes this very clear statement it does not sound like she’s going to she’s going to cast her weight on another time test of seven years all

Right let’s go to the next quote can I ask you a question related to that uh sure I’ll go back to it okay all right you’re you’re saying that uh God showed her you know there was no test of time since 44 we’ve already talked about her 2 and 44 we’ve talked about all these shut door ones we talked about the uh a few months one you said again she makes that in 1854 in 1856 she makes her food for worms prophecy that people would be translated in that room who were all dead and gone more than a hundred years ago now uh that was making a specific time prophecy uh which didn’t come to

Pass once again in 1885 five she makes several statements that I can read for you here about it’s too late to marry uh it’s too late to have children um time is too short now to consider uh getting married having a family um what in the world she talking about that was 1885 if people had taken her seriously uh there would be no Adventist on the planet um I mean she she was a confused woman she contradicted herself all the time that this is not reply this I Steve with all due respect this does not reply to the specific quotation that we’re looking at

You’re you’re you’re this is like we’re we’re dealing with a spat between spouses and you’re bringing in other stuff to try to bolster the case and I want to be constrained so if you wanted to reply to the specific one I’d be happy for that otherwise I do need to keep going yeah I already told you why she made the these kinds of statements later it’s because the the time of trouble didn’t come as she prophesied it would it’s going to come in a few months it didn’t come so she can see it hasn’t come so now she starts backtracking and getting all these other Visions to give

Her a bailout position when it’s obvious that the Lord’s not going to return on October 22 1851 but her other statements fit perfectly with believing that that was going to happen it’s only when she sees that the time of trouble didn’t come that she starts making these other statements that’s an obvious you know that that doesn’t reply to 1850 when he has according to what I what I was able to give you bates’s statement about this time period was made in March he published his paper in March this is October of 1850 this is long before 1851 and she is saying

Categorically that time never again will be a test all right here’s the next stat say that the reason she says it is because several months before she had said three months a few months the time of trouble will start in a few months now keep we’ll keep we need we need to keep going to keep going and the time of trouble never started so because she continues those same statements and so it doesn’t really support the seven-year Theory specifically it you in your mind it fits I get that in your mind it fits I haven’t heard I haven’t heard that okay you haven’t explained

The a few months uh statement because I have not been enabled to go through the quotations well I’ve talked to because I have the quotation that deals with that later on so if we can keep going we can get to it I’d love to hear where she gets out of that a few month statement because she doesn’t I know it for a fact okay could I proceed okay all right the Lord showed me that the message must go and that it must never be hung on time for time never will be a test again this is in June of 1851 this is long before the seven-year period is over so she is categorically

Again saying that time will never be a test again she wrote not before it this is already past the time when the time of trouble was supposed to happen so now I okay I’m I’m G to have to ask you to to hold off for just a second okay because what we are dealing with specifically is the seven-year theory that goes from 1840 the fall of 1844 to the fall of 1851 this statement is written in June of 1851 it is several months before the seven-year Theory would be fulfilled therefore it is further evidence that she does not support the seven-year Theory she did not support it in 1850

She did not support it here in June of 1851 we continue what did James White disagree with what you just said well of course you will because you have a different you put the pieces together differently but I’m giving you the specific statements that are the basis for my conclusion here is James White James White says it is well known that some of the Brethren have been teaching that the great work of salvation for the remnant through the intercessor of our great high priest will close in seven years from the termination of the 2300 days in the Autumn of 1844 so he’s he’s laying

Out that some believe that including Joseph Bates some who have thus taught we esteem very highly and love fervently as Brethren and we feel that it becomes us to be slow to say anything to hurt their feelings yet we cannot refrain from giving some reasons why we do not receive the time this is in August two months prior to October of 1851 then he gives his his answers and the these are the I’ve just boiled it down to these these three it’s longer the proof presented has not been sufficient the message of the third Angel does not hang on time we are now

Emphatically in the waiting time in the time of the patience of the Saints in other words there is no determined time that we have we are waiting and they had come to that conclusion based on the visions of the the bridegroom Vision that she had in exiter based on the visions that she has said very clearly that we are not to have a time setting and so when I look at these authoritative statements made at the time not somebody looking back who puts it together in a different way but when I look at the way that Ellen White says it and the way that James says it it

Does not give me any confidence that the conclusion is a correct one I respectfully disagree with your conclusion now that’s that’s on the time setting so did she set dates for the for the Christ’s return not done with the shut door statements yet here here’s here’s the statement from your book would you like to read it for us since it’s from your book it is striking to see how she evades mentioning Miller or his meetings to say nothing of the biggest issue which was the time setting or date setting for the second coming which Jesus himself specifically warned

Against okay yeah now you’re in agreement with that statement yes of course it’s yours all right so did Ellen White set any dates for Christ’s return and by that I am being very specific I’m not saying did she agree with somebody else’s time setting I’m saying did she PR prognosticate now the the strength that you have is one statement from berdick and the early that it’s made is 1874 I have counter evidence from somebody else who knew her which you don’t considered to be as valid as berdick and I think that’s that’s probably going to to happen over and

Over again because you’re going to agree with the critic without the same corroboration and I’m going to agree with the person who confirms what she says those are our two biases all right so we asked this question did Ellen White set any dates for Christ return well the first thing we can say is she accepted the spring of 1843 and the 1844 dates but was not the one who set them can can we agree on that statement yes okay all right secondly her statements about The Nearness of Christ’s return referenced no date aside from the verdict secondary state statement do you have any that

Gives a specific date for melon white I consider the three Monon statement to be a specific time setting statement okay I I accept that that’s what you you believe it to be all right we’ll go on in the spring of 1845 she said that the time Setters would be disappointed and therefore was accused of delaying the Lord’s return so it does not sound like she was in agreement with them very much does it well she contradicted herself all the time so it’s okay you’re all right is there anything in her statements that confirm that she agreed with the spring

Of 1845 do you have any statement where she she set set the date for spring of 45 because that’s the only date we’re dealing with in this statement yeah I mean it’s not spring of 45 it’s June of 45 and then it’s September of 45 all right very good so saying you know berdick wasn’t just saying Oh Ellen happened to mention this to me no this was preached and taught in all the churches that was her statement as she traveled with Ellen and heard what was said I mean that big difference between saying that and saying Oh Ellen happened to say this to me no that

That’s not what it was it was Ellen being confronted by people hey why didn’t he come in June like you said he was gonna oh because the angel showed me in the language of Canan and I didn’t understand it it’s really going to be September um you know this is not the kind of thing that bick’s just going to make up I mean it’s just ridiculous to think that that didn’t her eyewitness account didn’t have credibility I I understand that you give her credibility I I give the reasons why I don’t I documented her life I documented the connections and what I I don’t fault her

Statement first of all but I I fault probably more the statements that that overstepped it and that’s what I what I called on the issue of her being a close friend there is not evidence of that and I and I give the documentation for the basis for even say she’s acquainted and I draw the connections I Trac the life of of Howell I even wrote to Aurora University I’ve been in contact there with uh Susan Palmer she’s the archivist there to get the um the obituaries for both how and for berdick and so I I’ve tried to piece all of this together I’m trying to be very careful in my

Statements and there is no good solid evidence to make it that she was a close friend there is there is no good solid evidence that is totally supposition all right the next point is she received a vision that declared that the predicted October 1845 date would pass so is she setting the date in 43 and 44 no but she had went along with it is she talking specifically about anything only according to berdick in 1874 is she confirming the spring date no she is not is she confirming the October 1845 date no she is not and one more she received a vision

That time would never again be a test she would make a test then she did not why did she make a test to people telling them to sell their homes why do she make it a test telling them they shouldn’t get married why do she make it a test they shouldn’t have children why did she make not test well they’re used that way when people are told hey the Lord shown me you need to sell your home uh that that’s going to be a test to them if they sell their home or even if they don’t sell their home you know that’s still laid out as a test the Lord showed me you were to sell your home and

Your property and your possessions the Lord didn’t show her that you are you are putting a constellation of things together that makes a picture for you and I understand that it does but when I have gone through carefully in her statements about when she advised someone to sell or not to sell it is not an absolute sell all your stuff it’s and I and it is documented in my book that she is saying there are some people who have funds that can help the the progress of the Advent message and God will tell you when it is time to sell portions of your property or more of

Your property or not to sell at all there are there are councils that she tells people don’t sell she there are people that she’s she’s saying and and the issue of marriage there’s no blanket statement don’t get married no the time pass for people to get married or to have children the time has passed was that a true statement no it wasn’t come on be be be honest I think I think you are stretching the statement unfortunately I’ll read it to you I have it right here so let’s continue on if you give it its full context it is not an absolute statement well Accord of course you can

Always try to twist oh it’s not absolute but it’s ridiculous but but you’re saying that it is we weren’t even close to it being the time for no one to have children or not to get married that was 1885 come on do you have trouble with Paul’s statement on that Paul doesn’t make any statement that is anywhere near what Ellen White makes in 1885 there he says for the for the trouble that we’re facing it’s better not to marry yeah but he doesn’t come right out and say the time has passed to have children or to get married he doesn’t say that and I would like for you to to to to

Present that for our audience because they need to hear it we’ll read it uh but I’m right now continuing on with these shut door things all right this is manuscript 11 LOM Linda Heritage room page three and four then I saw the L ofans dare they admit that the door of Salvation is shut the sin against the Holy Ghost was to ascribe to Satan what belongs to God or what the Holy Ghost has done they said the shut door was of the devil and now admit it is against their own lives they shall die the death so she’s Bas she’s saying the people who were against the shut door and her

Teachings on the shut door had committed the unpardonable sin and they’re going to die the death for opposing her views on the shut door I mean it’s just completely ridiculous what she’s saying she’s saying but where where does it say anything about marriage that’s what we’re asking for no no no I’m not talking about marriage now we’re coming later back to that we’re we’re continuing the shutd door statements I let you respond to the one and then we went off on a rabbit’s Trail but we’re trying to complete these shutd door statements and and now she’s saying

People who you know opposed her shutd door teaching and this is uh you you know after 1849 people who opposed her shutd door uh teaching have committed the unpardonable sin the sin against the Holy Ghost and they will die the death for doing that I mean come on this this stuff is it’s really Blasphemous for her to be saying this kind of stuff per perhaps I could read the full quotation do you mind if I do go ahead let me put it on the screen so everyone can see it all right that would that way it it will be um miles can you allow us to do that okay I’m going to see if I

Can get it bigger I don’t know if I can there’s there’s supposed to be a way to do this but anyway all right this is the paragraph that you’re referring to I saw brother Bates that he must put on put must buckle on the armor said the angel does thou expect to be free from trials fight the good fight of Fate the angel of God will go before thee and some Souls will be benefited and receive the truth all right so this is a this is a an encouragement for Bates to do evangelism then I saw lead Deans they will make a mighty effort will they get the victory one who has the truth will

Chase a thousand and two will put 10,000 to flight they are coming to C conclusions that bring them into Close Quarters and they cannot tell where they be themselves for they are lost in the foggy terrible fear that takes hold of them so this is the The Fog of battle for the Le ofans anguish of spirit will seize them dare they admit that the door is shut the sin against the Holy Ghost was to ascribe so what is she talking about the door being shut right here the shut door well don’t just use the the the words she’s talking about the here okay let’s read the context the sin against

The Holy Ghost was to ascribe to Satan what belongs to God or what the Holy Ghost has done if somebody sins against the Holy Ghost is the door shut they said the shut door was of the devil isn’t that pretty clear they said the shut door was of the devil yes it is of the devil what Ellen White was saying about the world being damned and lost with was of the devil they these people were right and yet Ellen’s saying they’re committing the unpardonable sin okay but you you didn’t respond to you didn’t respond to the sentence the sin against the Holy Ghost

Was to ascribe to Satan what belongs to God or what the Holy Ghost has done is that a statement that’s biblical yes okay and so this shut door in sinning against the Holy Spirit they say was of the devil and now admit it is against their own lives I think there’s something there’s something more here to be studied but we are now into the the Weeds on this one because this statement has within its context something that you have acknowledged is a Biblical teaching now I would like to go back to the statements that we were on real real quick real quick um because I think

There I just want to clarify for the audience um I think Steve’s Point Kevin is that um what Ellen White is saying there is that she is essentially saying to reject the shutd door teaching the teaching is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and what you read in that quote there if you can read that again for the audience to see it does appear as though Ellen White is saying to go against the shutd door teaching is to go against the Holy Spirit and it sounds like you’re taking umbrage with the phrase shut door there and and saying and correct me if I’m wrong it

Sounds like you’re saying well when she talks about the shut door here it’s not the shutd door teaching as you understand the shut door teaching she’s referring to some other shut door yeah uh almost almost what other shut door is that okay it’s a refinement of her understanding of the shut door if we if we use the broad brush then then everybody would be in agreement with you if we use the broad brush but I am a fine detail and when I look at it I see that there is a distinction that does make a difference and so when we look at the shut door that’s what we need to

Continue did Ellen White’s view of the shut door mean probation had closed for Humanity and I did not know that I was going to choose a font that was going to go perfectly with your setting all right bright yellow goes with your stuff so did she did was her view of the shut door that probation had closed for all of humanity that’s the question okay now let’s look at the evidence here’s here’s where you make a statement would you like to read it for us it’s your statement however it is very important to note that the shut door or closed of probation was

Manipulated or I’m sorry was maintained by Ellen White right up until the seven-year Theory expired and Christ failed and I also talk about how there were three segments to the shut door so it wasn’t the same view of the shut door she had all seven years okay that’s excellent that is excellent because right up to the end she’s still saying that it means probation is closed that you don’t pray for Sinners that’s and that’s where I disagree but but I I appreciate that you recognize that there is a distinction in her understanding of it okay and that’s

Necessity it was out of necess that the evanst people had to shift uh yeah and that’s and that is your interpretation of it mine is different because I have looked at the the statements of those that were with her and and and well we’ll see it in the quotations let’s let’s go to the quotations here we go here’s here is the statement about which you quoted you I’m putting it on the screen but I’m also including more of the the inner parts of it so that it’s more in context if that’s all right I was shown that the Commandments of God and the testimony of

Jesus Christ relating to the shut door could not be separated she’s saying the concept of The Commandments and the testimony of Jesus Christ both statements coming from Revelation relating to the shut door could not be separated this is imagery from Revelation chap 11 and chapter 12 okay these are this is language there I saw that the mysterious signs and wonders and false reformations would increase and spread the reformations that were shown me were not reformations from error to truth my accompany Angel made me look for the travail of souls for Sinners as used to be I looked but

Could not see it for the time of their salvation is passed So within the context who is she talking about within the context the context says the travail of soul for Sinners no back up a little back back up a little bit but the immediate context travail of soul for Sinners as know you you you left you left out the sentence I want want to have noted okay I saw that the mysterious signs and wonders and false reformations would increase in Sp read the reformations that were shown me were not reformations from error to truth so the context is not talking

About all people of all times and the close of probation it is talking about people who have the opportunity to know truth and refuse it now at this stage in your life you may disagree that what she’s saying was pointing to truth you have that right but as a Seventh Day Adventist who still believes that she is not being deceptive I I am pointing to what she is saying as describing what the salv whose salvation is passed it is someone who has rejected truth and affirmed their error that’s I want to interject you real quick and then I want to interject you

Real quick and then Steve I want to let you respond to that and then Kevin we can we can keep going back and forth but I I just want to push back on this a little bit here Kevin just to make sure again to connect dots for the audience because you’re saying here that when she says this phrase that the tail in there for the time of their salvation is past I know that you gave Uriah Smith’s typical defense to this um I I want to push back on this because in one of your earlier Clips you referred to the Camden New York 1851 Vision which means that you are under the impression which if if

You’re citing euriah Smith there I would think that euriah Smith um citing this Vision as well and defenses for it in the review in Herald um you you believe that this is legitimate well this same phrase is found in that Vision where she says quote I saw that Jesus prayed for his enemies but that should not cause us to pray for the Wicked World whom God has rejected when he prayed for his enemies there was hope for them and they could be benefited and saved by his prayers and also after he was a mediator in the outer apartment for the whole world but now his spirit

And sympathy were withdrawn from the world and our sympathy must be with Jesus and must be withdrawn from the ungodly close quote so maybe you can explain for the audience how this does not present a problem for the idea that well one she claimed to Never See inv Vision confirming that the Wicked World had been rejected but also this point here that well what she’s saying in that other quote it’s not actually talking about the world or all Sinners it’s actually only talking about these specific people who um Uriah Smith said um and I don’t know if

You want to agree with him on this point because you didn’t bring this up but UAH Smith said that she’s actually only referring there to false teachers these teachers that were leading these false reformations and false converts Etc but um this quote does seem I don’t know if I’ve even read Uriah Smith on this miles just to be honest well that’s that’s fine um but that’s the defense he gives and I’m just curious how does this statement jive with the idea that it was the whole world when she says the whole world okay well that’s a good question and I think you need to look at the

Context of each statement because each statement could be saying something slightly different you know you can use similar language to say different things so I am looking to this statement in its entirety not leaving out the middle part to jump to some other conclusion here in this quotation we don’t have it on the screen anymore but this quotation she is talking about a specific group of people now um miles if you want to bring up your quotation again we’ll take a look at that one and I have I do have a response for that one are you are you there yeah okay good

All right I saw that Jesus prayed for his enemies but that that should not cause us to pray for the wicked world when Jesus prayed for his enemies on the cross he was he was praying for those who what knew not what they did right there’s a specific caveat in his prayer for his enemies we go to one of his other prayers and he says I pray not for the world but for those you have given me in that statement our savior and I believe we have the same savior Our Savior said in that prayer he’s not praying for the world but he is praying for those who have re God has given so in different

Statements there can be a different emphasis and in in this one there is a there is a point now the question that we’re we’re trying to answer the the the question that we’re trying to answer is did she teach teach that probation for all people except maybe for this little group of Adventists had closed and that’s why I’ve prepared these quotations because I want to go to the specific quotations not the general ones but the specific ones so that we can see what she is saying now here is her comment you asked for this earlier Steve and this is her

Comment because people did not necessarily understand what she meant the first time so so this is the supplement to Christian experience and Views I have I have the actual first edition of these books on loan from a good friend on my in my library this was the 1854 explanation about things that were not understood in 1851 they had published it for for many years you know it had well not published it but had disseminated had sold it had given it and it’s high documented in the review that that it was a a well respected and um and and dispersed uh

Document anyway this is the passage where she is describing what she said before this view relates more particularly to those who have heard and rejected the light of the Advent doctrines not just heard but rejected they are given over to strong delusions such will not have the travail of soul for Sinners as formerly again very specifically who does she say those who heard and rejected having rejected the Advent and being given over to the delusions of Satan the time for their salvation is past those are the the words and now notice what I’ve highlighted this does

Not however relate to those who have not heard and have not rejected the doctrine of the second Advent so can I respond to that M yeah Steve Steve let’s let’s hear your response to that I mean this is such gymnastics to try to get around this stuff but what we know is that initially they took the stand that the world was lost and only their little group could be saved but then as those years progressed there were people who were coming and saying what what’s what are you about and they hadn’t heard of Miller they hadn’t heard of the millerite movement so they had to adjust

And and they changed their view of the shut door so that only those who rejected the millerite movement were lost they were the ones whose probation had closed they were the ones there was no travail for soul this is all nonsense by the way why should people who reject a false message the millerite message message was a false cultic message it was stupidity uh this it was date setting it was flagrantly against the Bible why should people who reject that be considered to be lost it’s nonsense those were Discerning people they saw that this was not valid uh so they

Rejected it to to lump them together as a bunch of lost people whose probation is closed is absolute nonsense and and that’s you know part of what casebolt brings out so strongly when he shows the complete stupidity of millerism and is two books but um you know to to try to justify what these Adventists did during the seven-year period between all their gymnastics and all their shutd door nonsense and then to try to say oh this was God’s Great movement God did all this God spoke all this to Ellen White I’m sorry but I know the big picture of Ellen White’s whole life and that big

Picture is not pretty and all this garbage here at the beginning fits perfectly with the rest of it that’s my story and I’m sticking to it I’m sure because you’re published and that’s what that’s us that’s usually what that’s usually happens people people don’t back out of you know it’s it’s um when someone finds an idea useful in some way way it’s hard to let go of it I mean you hav’t any of my major stuff in my book no one has there’s not one having a scholar that has reved refuted the major footnotes in my psychobiography they won’t even come and talk with me on a

Program you’re one that wanted to but you haven’t ref I was not one who wanted to Miles asked me to and I was reluctant to do so Bas on the stuff you said about me on your webcast I was asked about your book by numerous people and I tried to contact you numerous times on Facebook and because I got no response while they were still asking I responded and I responded kindly I responded as even-handedly as I could I did not put you down I did not I just said I disagree with your conclusions here’s my evidence now we haven’t finished all the stuff here

Kevin quick question on that just out of curiosity um so you’re saying that the correct way to understand Ellen’s claims there is that it’s actually talking about people who have heard the Advent message and reject it that would be steveen I so are you saying then that um you know I know you’re trying to be you you know you want to be cordial and whatnot and this is kind of a forthright question but um that’s essentially what you’re saying you’re saying that applies then only to people like Steve and I correct

Is there any safety in rejecting truth no not if it’s not not if it’s not if it’s actually true correct if assuming that it we’re we’re talking about what is actually true correct but if you can’t see truth to be true but it is then what have you done well if it’s actually true you’ve rejected truth right there’s yours I mean how much evidence do you need that a person’s a false prophet before you believe they’re a false prophet there’s so much overwhelming evidence on Ellen White it’s just completely ridiculous I I can’t believe well I I I have I’ve gone

Into the Weeds on this and Miles I do appreciate you giving me the opportunity to respond because it’s you it it gives people a chance to to weigh it out for themselves and I think that after after tonight there will be a number of people that’ll say Steve proved his case and there will be a number of people that will say um I think he was not dealing with some of the specifics that Morgan was talking about and that’s all that we’re going to come to there there are people that will be inclined to accept and some that won’t I don’t these kind of programs don’t generally move the

Dial that much you know people people tend to have their view but it’s good to have stuff out there it’s good to have discussions especially too if we’re making comments about people um it’s good to to have the discussions Etc gentlemen I know it’s getting late and I feel like we could be here all night and never get to everything obviously I do want to play one more clip that covers one more topic Kevin you will have a closing you can use that five minutes for whatever it is that you want to share or close with um but I do want to get to this one other clip there was a

There were a number of other clips that we didn’t get to just because because um the discussion was was good but um let’s listen to this and then I’ll open the floor back up okay now this is talking about later on in Ellen White’s marriage and trying to describe it as uh being a miserable marriage that had its bright spots but that they were always contentious and his assumption is that it’s because James knew she really wasn’t uh a prophet and so he was living with the fraud and this is the this is the premise of the book but um I was reading this paragraph that referenced footnote

111 and one thing about this book that I really like is that the footnoting is consecutive through the book so it’s easier to find where you are you don’t have to look for a chapter and a number you just look for the number he says this is from George Knights walking with Ellen White Page 73 so well I started looking there in Ellen White’s book or the book on Ellen White walking with Ellen White and I looked up page 73 and started reading George Knight’s description of this period about the relationship with with James and Ellen and um rather than her considering

It a fraud this is what George Knight says page 74 we’ll get back to 73 the fact that he firmly believed that his wife’s messages came from God didn’t always help his attitude toward her since she occasionally had some pretty straight words for him on such topics as how his poor work habits injured him and how he let his suspicions in depression destroy his usefulness okay so humanly speaking he may have resented what she was pointing out and how that his overwork which daily acknowledges that she overworked let me let me just call attention to that in the back of his in

His footnotes again going back to the footnotes um she write he writes uh see George Knights walking with Ellen White Page 73 for examples of prophetic repand that Ellen laid on James concerning his poor work habits see letters such and such and such and such but then when we go back to his the chapter he describes how that he had that um James had nearly uh up to five strokes and um he was a workaholic she he he agrees with Ellen White so Ellen White’s counsels to James were not spoiling his fun it was trying to help him to survive and so she could

Keep her husband around whom she did love dearly she called him uh the best man who ever trod Sho leather kind of a quaint little way of saying it all right so get back to to this passage and what’s supposed to be on page 73 well I started reading page 73 and it says that stroke and his inability to trust others or delegate Authority colored the remainder of his life problems that had been evident in his early years became pronounced after 1865 thus he suffered from occurring Depression was suspicious of other people and at times made ill-advised

Statements and accusations these problems affected both his relationships with fellow Church workers and with his wife and children okay that’s true um the depression and uh the workaholic were were problems but he was still productive and he still accomplished a lot for the Lord and loved the Lord and his work but um this is how he James sty or Steve Dy puts this after the first of his five Strokes in 1865 quote problems that had been evident in his early years became okay single quote pronounced and then he continues as if this were a quotation his moodiness depression

Paranoia suspicion and control all all became increasing issues in a marriage where he had to cope with a prophet wife who was also single quote always right single quote close quote imagine my surprise to look for this and find that this is DA’s summation DA’s superimposed ideas about her and I could never find this quotation it does not exist where he says it’s supposed to could come from and I searched the internet searched archive.org searched Google Docs um trying to find that statement and the only thing I find is the beginning of the statement which is

Correct in page 73 about um problems that had been evident in early year in uh in his early years became pronounced so Steve yeah there is Kevin seems Kevin seems to think there uh the the double quote should have come right after the single quote um which was the first part where I was actually quoting him and I don’t know how many books Kevin’s written over 350 Pages I’ve written several and it’s almost impossible to write a book of this size without having some small mistakes like this the the um reference is in the right place but the double quote should

Not be in front of that reference although the other uh references in that quote uh underline what I say in the in the paraphrase the paraphrase does not disagree with Knight um Kevin’s accusation that I claimed that Knight was saying he uh James didn’t believe in Ellen’s Visions is not true uh there’s nothing in here that suggests that the the part I quoted from Knight problems that had been evident in his early years became announced uh single quote and then there should be the double quote that’s what was in my original but uh there’s a mistake there it doesn’t it

Doesn’t negate the context it doesn’t negate the truth of what I’m saying there and the references I give in the back of the book but it is a mistake I’ll grant that but and what about attributing something to night that he didn’t say uh in terms of the overall thing night goes on and talks about how James didn’t want Ellen thinking that she could tell him what to do and her head wouldn’t fit on his shoulders and the same kind of stuff that I’m saying here so it’s not I never suggested that Knight said that uh James didn’t believe in Ellen’s Visions or said they were a

Fraud he just made that up I don’t know where he got it but it’s nothing that’s quoting I never attributed that tonight no no no no I’m I’m you you said Okay the Let Let me clarify what I what my my question is I’m not yes I understand you can mess up quotation marks that’s not what I’m that’s not the point um you know and I appreciate that you can acknowledge that part of it what I’m saying is you said specifically that James knew that Ellen White was a fraud and the refer the only General reference you gave was Knight okay so I other references that same

Quote I I I looked for it I I I look for it and when I went toight he says the opposite of that point that’s the point yeah but I wasn’t referencing that point that was my understanding based on my own study there you go there you go and and if you had said and if you had said I think that she thought he was a fraud but the only reference that is given is to take us T night and series the series of letters and what Knight says is that he firmly believed that his wife’s messages came from God that does not sound like your conclusion that he thought she was a

Fraud and I have not found any corroboration in anything that he said or even that has said I believe that that’s your conclusion and I accept that that’s your conclusion but I don’t find that in evidence I’m Notting that conclusion tonight okay so so that so she I I don’t believe see this is the this is where I disagree with your your interpretation of the events the fact that they had difficulties in their marriage does not have any bearing on whether he believed that her messages came from God all the evidence that I’ve ever seen and even in the reference that

You that you reference he says he firmly believed that his wife’s messages came from God so so he didn’t have any doubt the second point that I made and that is I was looking for I really wanted to see you know did George Knight say that sometime did somebody say it sometime that there that those the the special quotes around that she said she was always right now I think that’s probably also part of your interpretation because I didn’t find any evidence that that James or or Ellen had any ever said specifically you know you you think you’re always right because James

Statement about your head can’t fit on my shoulders and I’m tired of you telling me what to do through prophecies you know and he throws her testimony in the you’re throwing a few extra things in there that are not in that statement unfortunately no but I’m giving my reasons for why I this is my personal belief I understand James was very expedient he was a snake oil salesman he knew Ellen was his ticket and um you know and of course publicly he’s never going to although he did quit publishing her Visions in the review for four years he was ticked off enough about the whole

Shutd Door business and the seven-year Theory uh he he cut her out for four years till UAH Smith came in as editor in we’re we’re getting into it in into into a married couple squabble here you know pulling stuff in to try to bolster the case um the truth is he never quit publishing her Visions he didn’t publish them in the review but they distributed the book that was published in 1851 widely it was available so he didn’t stop publishing hers and why is it why did they censor all the statements about the shut door and those things and and cut them out

After the 1851 date passed that’s all I will since we’re running short on time I’ll refer you to that chapter in my book yeah I I suppose you’re saying they didn’t censor anything no there’s it’s much more of a context to look at each statement and and I don’t think we have time to go into that right now you guys can if you want I just know that it’s getting a little bit late um so the the the choic is on you guys I want to be respectful of your time um I I do appreciate that it’s better to close yeah I I do appreciate the discussion I think this was beneficial

For people to hear um and for these issues to be discussed openly despite the differences hopefully people were spurned to dig into the issues further and look at the evidence for themselves in close you each will have five minutes or so to say any final remarks that you’d like Kevin we will start with you your time will begin when you begin talking and when you hear the sounds you know the drill the first one is one minute left the second one is your time is up thank you very much miles I do appreciate that you invited me and you kept your word exactly on how that we

This would go it gave me a fair opportunity to present one side of it and I do appreciate that very much what I would say is that for those who wish to look at a positive side I think there’s there’s evidence to see a different picture we can put the pieces together in different ways depending upon our lenses we will either see it positively or negatively and we will continue to contribute um whatever we can find my mother and father split when I was a child they didn’t get an official divorce but they were officially separated and I noticed at my

Dad’s house one time a picture that he had on his desk it was a picture of a pile of clothes to remind him why he left my mom a terrible thing to to remind yourself it’s true my mom was not always need about everything neither was my dad but in the end of his life when my dad developed dementia my mom took him in to her house and for the last two years of his life she took care of him during that time he was lucid enough to tell me how much that he had come to appreciate what he had done what she had done in raising us as kids that his negative

View of her was not an adequate explanation of her that she was a loving mother that she had given herself for her kids and that she had done a good job and she was he was proud of her in fact he went to a service that honored her at her church I’m hoping that people can reconsider what they have put in a negative category that they can can look at things and say maybe I was looking at it with dark glasses and that there is another way to look at it from my understanding and my careful research as I I study about her I see a different view of her in

Fact in one of my videos I quoted Steve Daly and how he described her at that time he at one time did have a positive View and things have changed he has accepted another view and he is promoting that view I don’t accept that view and I don’t hold to it and I want to be respectful for those and recognize that people see things differently I see Ellen White in a very positive way and her writings have been a blessing to me I have benefited from them from the beginning of my Christian Life and I have seen in in context the stories that I’ve read about her and that I know

About her that her counsels rather than being being condemnatory have been Redemptive One More Story I was doing research for this book on Ellen White and the Civil War the goal of post-racialism and I was reading about uh a fellow by the name of Clark who went down to Texas in order to to work there in a in a mission after the Civil War this is moving along in the 1870s is one of the first forray into the South the Seventh Day Adventist Church he was down there with a with uh two other brothers that were working the rust brothers and there was a a fellow

Who was a blind man who got himself into some problems he did some things that he shouldn’t have done Ellen White sent a council down there and when she sent the counsel the Brethren said yeah he’s doing the wrong thing and they pounded him with it they took away all of his positions and they pushed him to one side and she said breth that wasn’t what I intended I wanted him to correct those things in his life but I wanted him to be redeemed and I’ve seen that same picture over and over again as she gave her messages even though sometimes they were

Cutting the point that she was trying to make was to redeem a soul from something that could prove their destruction and in many cases did prove their destruction I’ve documented some of those cases from newspapers even in my new book thank you very much for joining us and thank you for the opportunity miles and Steve I appreciate that you’ve written a book that people can study and that they can compare the evidence and see for themselves which view they they think is is correct all right thank you for that Kevin Steve the same now to you your

Five minutes will start when you begin talking all righty um just on that marriage quote page 134 of my psychobiography she has two quotes here time has been for years uh the bringing into the children bring children into the world is more an occasion for grief than Joy Satan controls these children the Lord has but little to do with them the time has come when in one sense they that have wives be as though they had none how much better would have been the influence of both if they had not married um and she uh goes on and this is in uh volume one of the testimonies

But both of the quotes are read and full on page 134 of my psychobiography but I just want to say that um it’s not coincidental that uh not a single Adventist scholar has been able to refute um not only my psychobiography but the Ellen White uh the white estate fraud um you know the two book reviews that were written um one was by Tim and one was by Butler and and I just overwhelmingly refuted everything they said in the two appendixes uh three and four of my uh White estate fraud book but um there’s a reason that you know Advent Scholars top B and white people have been invited uh

By Miles they’ve been invited by Peter Dixon they’ve been invited by U Christian Scholars Forum not a single one is willing to come on and dialogue with me because they know I have the evidence they know I have overwhelming documentation for what I say and um you know it’s not coincidental that Ellen White is a figure who has been opposed by people from the onet you know while she was alive from the very beginning of her Ministry even in the early 1840s there um I mean that’s the reason I wrote my psychobiography was because I wanted to see if the overwhelming number

Of critics both during and after her lifetime would stand up to psychological and historical scrutiny uh in terms of her accusations of pathology and fraud and I was overwhelmingly convinced that they will um and now we have even more more and more people jumping on the bandwagon I’m very thankful that young people you know like miles has come along and uh I can go to my rest and know that Miles and Liston and all these young people that are looking into this know that Ellen White was a fraud and adventism is a deception and this is not game a game to be played you know when

You have a false prophet a false gospel people deceiving it’s not coincidental that the Mormons the jws and the sdas all came out of the same cultural and historical Meo they were all related they were all founded by frauds um you know Adventist want to say oh were the true they’re the counterfeit we’re the true no uh you’re all counterfeits and you’re all frauds and um that doesn’t mean there aren’t good people in adventism I know a lot of them I love a lot of Adventist people that are just wonderful people I hold uh Ellen White and the leadership

Responsible for the deceptions that have occurred it’s really tragic that um you know like Lincoln said you can fool some of the people all the time and all the people but you can’t fool all the people all the time and and that’s what adventism has tried to do over its history and the bottom line is that the internet is undermining them uh they’re dropping like mad right now they’re trying to hide the fact that they’re losing members like mad they’re hurting financially they’re losing members amongst the wealthiest part of their membership they’re in freefall so

They’re desperate that’s why Spectrum would allow me to respond to Butler’s book review that’s journalistic uh you know that’s just scum that’s if you have any journalistic integrity at all you allow an author to respond to a book review but Spectrum wouldn’t do it at interviewed me and then they got rid of the people that did the interview and took the interview off the website and I mean adventism is really in a scared mode right now it doesn’t want to talk truth it doesn’t want to be fair doesn’t want to be objective it’s censoring it’s you know ad hominum attacks all over the

Place misrepresentations all over the place place and it’s really sad you know I think more and more people are seeing it every day I see new people on my thread and um Kevin said he can’t get a hold of me it’s the easiest thing in the world to get a hold of me you just come on my thread I’m on there every day I post on it every day on my Facebook thread anyone can say hey Steve I have a message for you on messenger I immediately go I say okay I look on messenger for the message if you go on messenger and I don’t know about it I have millions of messages I mean they’re

Ridiculous I have tons of emails I tons of phone messages uh the way to get a hold of me go on my Facebook page on my thread say I have a message for you I’ll meet you on messenger and we can talk priv it’s not rocket science it’s very simple now I know thank thank you for that Steve Kevin he went about from anybody he went about 50 seconds over if you want an extra 50 seconds just to to make sure you have the same amount of time uh if you can if you can just uh put on the screen what I put in the chat the private chat um oh not that that I was looking

For something that’s not it in the private chat okay yeah yeah that’s the book review that he may not know about okay um I can send that in the the our group thread off of off of here and then if you want as well I can link to that in the description box down below okay I will be interested and reading your book Kevin so okay very good gentlemen again thank you for being here um I’m gonna let you guys go and I’m going to shut things down so again thank you for being here thank you miles thank you for your work it’s awesome yeah thank you appreciate it all right

Friends wow wow so I hope that you guys enjoyed the discussion I know at times it can get crazy but folks you have to remember I understand and I sympathize with both of them when you’re in a a context like this it is very hard to not go off onto other things to bring in other pieces of evidence and I know that that can be overwhelming as well for people not just who are even Vaguely Familiar but people who who don’t necessarily know the the general theme of like the things that are being talked about like the shut door so maybe you need to go back and listen to some of it

Again we have talked about these subjects that we talked about tonight many many times on this platform Steve has discussed um different aspects of his books in multiple streams on this platform so you can go and check those things out as well but there’s one thing that I want to close on Kevin had mentioned there in his last 5 minutes that he hopes that people will reconsider and to reconsider would mean that you at one point beli said thing and I asked Kevin a very pointed question there I had to do a lot in this discussion folks to bite my tongue

Obviously I tried to remain as neutral as possible Kevin I want to commend him for coming on here knowing full well that clearly the two individuals that are here um even though I was moderator um he very clearly knows my position him and I have sparred back and forth actually on Facebook before um and I have no ill will toward him I have no bad blood with him I don’t know him personally um but I had to bite my tongue a lot and so there were so many things that I wanted to say maybe we’ll do a debrief um stream at some point in the future where

We can kind of interact with with some of that and you could hear some of what I would respond to some of that stuff with but he said he hopes that people will reconsider yet when I asked him that very pointed question he said that when Ellen White talked about the Wicked World being rejected that the time of Salvation was passed that’s referring to people that once believed their message and not just their message there were things at that time that were present truth that are no longer present truth today that you don’t have to believe that you did have to believe

Then or you’d be lost folks this is why this movement is dangerous but I’m glad you guys heard it that’s what they teach you can look at our archives on this platform folks you’ll find Adventists on those streams saying we don’t teach that when I’m on their website saying this is what they mean when they actually trying to say no no no we believe most Christians are actually in other denominations what is my response always been yeah those people are saved in ignorance if they hear the Adventist message and reject it they’ll be lost you have to embrace adventism the

Best thing that the Adventist Church could do is tell nobody their message because then they run the risk of rejecting it now they’re doomed they can’t get back up on the path Ellen had a vision about this after you hear the message time is up for you so we can’t reconsider oh but what about all the Adventists that have well that presents now the other side of the coin of the problem this movement is dangerous folks it’s dangerous but I’m glad that Kevin is actually willing to stand on a lot of those things and he wasn’t in anticipating that question you know I just I thought

I didn’t know what his response was going to be and I just wanted to make sure to connect the dots for the audience that that was out there so that wasn’t on our our list and whatnot so I understand his his hesitancy to just say yes I get it he he did he he essentially got around to to saying it but he didn’t just immediately snap call with that and I get it that’s a hard thing to to have to tell people but I’m here to tell you and folks you can check the archives on this as well I’ve been consistent on this for over a decade I’m saying the same thing to

Adventist that’s why this platform exists I’m willing to tell you the harsh truth I I don’t beat around the bush part of what drives me crazy about adventism is when you get Adventists that try and do this no no no brother we’re just like you brother no you you’re not stop doing that you’re being dishonest so I appreciate people like Kevin who don’t do that you can call these people Fringe Fanatics you know that’s what the the the types that tend to just be you know the do o types they get thrown under the bus by their own movement when it’s like well

No those people just have the wherewithal and the guts to actually say the teaching and I appreciate that I appreciate that but there is a fork in the road here there is a fork in the road you reject adventism after hearing their message their prophetess was shown in Vision too late for you time of your salvation’s passed now I don’t agree that those statements are only talking about those individuals but just assuming that that it is and going along with that we’ve addressed this before we’ve looked at the or Smith quotes and I know Kevin said that he he hasn’t read your Smith

But this is coming from the Adventist milu you know I don’t I Kevin didn’t just he wasn’t the first one that just came up with this that’s the defense that Uriah Smith tried to give specifically and I mention this to not just the quote that he read but specifically the June 1851 cam to New York Vision oh they’re they’re being abused it’s not talking about the whole world even though it says God’s rejected the the the the world the time of their salvation is passed meaning the world the time of their salvation is passed but nevertheless I I’m glad that we were

Able to hear that I’m glad they were willing to come and have the discussion I appreciate you guys as well being here next week we are going to be taking Seventh Adventist pastor and apologist Ivor Meyers scapegoat challenge where he played a couple of clips from this platform as well as another clip from our friend EJ Thunder Lon you guys will want to tune in for this it is going to be interesting so until next time May Christ richly bless you in the grace and peace W by Christ in his vicarious death on the cross for Sinners Hallelujah and Marin