The SDA Three Angels’ Message is NOT Biblical | Open Mic #6

Well greetings welcome and thank you for being here especially if this is your first time with us Adventist or otherwise so a couple of months ago my friend Mike curn joined me for Open Mic number five where we open the floor to any Seventh Day Adventist in the world to change our minds regarding the great controversy worldview and storyline being biblical this time he’s with me again but we are focusing on the 7th Adventist Church’s interpretation of Revelation 14 6-12 so the formal challenge of the night can any Seventh Adventist prove to us the uh Revelation 146 through2

Teaches what the SDA Church claims that it does can any Seventh Adventist prove to us that Revelation 14 6-2 teaches what the SDA Church claims that it does for those unaware this is one of the SDA Church’s favorite six verses in the Bible and it’s uh somewhere that they try and trojan horse in a truckload of doctrinal claims these are then hitched to the phrase the Everlasting gospel found in verse six which the SDA church asserts is referring to their unique message of Salvation which is informed by their worldview that we looked at in the last

Open Mic only they possess this message allegedly and no one else has it so the floor will be open again to any Seventh Adventist in the world who wants to prove to us that these texts are indeed teaching what the SDA Church claims because as we are going to see believe what they claim the text is saying is so vital so important that a person’s soul hangs in the balance if they do not accept it and we will see why this is the case because before bringing any Challengers on stage like always I will give a brief overview to really make sure the objections are made Crystal

Clear then the floor will be open to seventh Adventists so if you are not a Seventh Adventist please refrain from joining um and by Seventh Day Adventist I apparently have to say this because of the last time um because of our friend Ricky by Adventist we mean a sth Adventist in the official sth Adventist Church trademark that kind of Adventist not whatever he was so the link to join is pinned in the chat for those who would like to step up but a couple housekeeping things before diving into it if you like what we’re doing here please consider partnering with us at

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Support secondly this Thursday the next installment of for the record will go live on this channel and it just so happens to be with my guest tonight Mike curn these uh for those that do not know are unique interviews that are shot from a documentary standpoint where I am testing the SDA Church’s theory about why people leave their ranks we start from childhood and work up through the present day Mike has an incredible story and so make sure to ring the notification Bell so that you can be notified when that premieres next week but with that said brother thank you so

Much for being here how you doing I am doing amazing um man it is good to be here there has been so much going on and I have been so grateful for all of the the content you’ve been putting out all the stuff that you’ve been doing all the hard work I don’t think a lot of people un well maybe they do maybe they understand all of the intentional hard work that you do but thank you so much for being who you are miles I appreciate that man I uh it’s a labor of love obviously um it’s always funny when we get people that say it’s about the money or I had a guy uh I

Don’t remember if it was yesterday or this goes show it’s like they think I just sit around and and just sit on YouTube all day it’s like well no there’s other things that I that I do but I got charged of being a grifter I’m using I’m using adventism for grift you’re clearly making millions doing this I know oh I know we were gonna shoot this folks we were going to record this from the Private Island the the answering adventism Island that we purchased um but I wasn’t able to to pay for the fuel for the private jet to fly down and pick up Mike from Arkansas and

And all that sort of stuff so well before bringing any Challengers up if any decide to show up like last time I want to give an overview for our audience members who may be new to this subject so they can get caught up to speed so I’m going to read through some sources for them and then the floor will be open if no one shows up you and I will chop it up until they do sound good sounds like a plan man all right so simply put the SDA Church claims that Revelation 14 6-12 is God’s final warning message to the whole world notice SDA Theologian John Pauline notes

This in his teaching series on Revelation where he says quote the final message of Earth’s history is depicted in the form of Three Angels this comes very close to the heart for seventh day Adventists in fact seventh Adventists have often referred to their version of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the Three Angels messages the final Eternal gospel is given in the context of Endtime events close quote now I appreciate Dr Pauline’s forthrightness here that Adventist have their own version of The Gospel it is not what Christians believe teach and spread not even what the

Apostles preached like we will see in a moment but very clearly they claim that Revelation 14 6-12 is ultimately talking about a special end times gospel message that only the SDA church has okay in line with that assertion the angels are allegedly representative of the SDA Church which is taking this final warning to the world as Ellen White said in the January 25th 1910 10 issue of signs of the times quote these Three Angels represent the people who accept the light of God’s messages and go forth as his agents to sound the warning throughout the length and breadth of the

Earth close quote so that’s one the angels in these verses supposedly represent a movement that was birthed in the 19th century of North America that is heralding an entirely unique end times gospel message that is the final message of God to the world secondly regarding the phrase Everlasting gospel notice what SDA pioner James White husband to the prophetess said about this in their Church paper November 18 1862 quote another scene and another chain of prophetic events is introduced in these verses we here have what is known as The Three Angels messages of Revelation 14

The first Angel is called another Angel because John had already seen one flying in a similar manner chapter 8 Verse 18 He proclaims the gospel not a new one but the Everlasting Gospel called in Matthew 24:14 the Gospel of the Kingdom but while it is the same gospel there are particular features which constitute the burden of the message Chief among which as shown by verse seven is The Nearness of the Kingdom this message cannot therefore symbolize the preaching of the Gospel by the apostles nor by the reformers nor by any class of of people except those who live when the end is

Just at hand the Advent Proclamation especially from 1840 to 1844 completely answers to this to the prophecy and is the only great religious movement which can be pointed to as its fulfillment close quote so Revelation 14 6-12 isn’t only referring to their unique message that only they have which has unique features not even preached by the apostles such as the investigative judgment but it also is supposedly prophesying about the millerite movement of 1840 to 44 so just like they insert the millerite movement in the great disappointment of 1844 into Revelation

10 9-10 we also see it inserted here this understanding was allegedly confirmed by God through Ellen White in multiple writings here’s just a sample great controversy page 457 quote the preaching of a definite time for the Judgment in the giving of the first message was ordered by God the computation of the prophetic periods on which the message was based placing the close of the 2300 days in the Autumn of 1844 stands without impeachment the repeated efforts to find new dates for the beginning and close of the prophetic periods and the unsound reasoning necessary to sustain these

Positions not only lead Minds away from the present truth but throw contempt upon all efforts to explain the prophecies close quote so God was allegedly behind the millerite movement as well as all all the false date setting of 1843 and 44 because it was supposedly prophesied about in Revelation so that’s two Revelation 14:6 is supposedly talking about the millerite movement of the 19th century but getting even more specific on this phrase Everlasting gospel again from their Church paper which is abundantly and sufficiently clear quote this movement with which we are

Connected stands for certain great fundamental truths the existence of God the ins spiration of the Holy scriptures salvation alone through the vicarious sacrifice of the Lord Jesus repentance regeneration and the gift of righteousness by faith the work of the Holy Spirit the immutability of God’s law The Binding claims of the Bible Sabbath the Priestly Ministry of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary the investigative judgment now going on the soon coming of Christ to take his children home the doctrine of spiritual gifts the manifestation of the gift of

Prophecy in the remnant Church Life only in Christ Christian Temperance and other lead ing important Bible doctrines these great truths constitute the Everlasting gospel message for this time to the Seventh Adventist Church has been committed this message close quote so once again Revelation 14 6-2 is allegedly a unique one-of-a-kind message that only the Seventh Adventist Church has been given to take to the world and this Everlasting gospel more fully is the entire 7th Day Adventist system of theology in other words it is embracing a great controversy Paradigm which is

What we looked at in the previous Open Mic so that’s three Everlasting gospel in this text is allegedly referring to the SDA Church’s unique system of theology which is entirely funneled through their extra biblical Great controversy worldview storyline whatever you want to call it which includes that the word judgment in Revelation 146 is supposedly talking about the investigative judgment then in connection with the first Angel we have what they assert about the other two which is Downstream from and connected to all of this Spirit of Prophecy volume 4 Page 232

Quote when the churches spurn the counsil of God by rejecting the Advent message speaking about millerism the Lord rejected them the first Angel was followed by a second proclaiming Babylon is Fallen is Fallen that great City because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication Revelation 148 this message was understood by Adventists to be an announcement of the moral fall of the churches in consequence of the rejection of the first message the proclamation Babylon has fallen was given in the summer of 1844 and as the result about

50,000 withdrew from those churches close quote so when Christians of the 19th century rejected the fanaticism of millerism which was supposedly heralding the first Angel’s message God rejected those churches and that’s what the second Angel’s message is Alle allegedly proclaiming in Revelation 14 this is a vesage of Charles Fitch and millerism that has carried over into present day Adventist theology but that’s four the second Angel’s message in Revelation 148 is supposedly a prophecy about needing to get out of protestant Catholic Orthodox Etc churches because God has

Rejected them they are morally corrupt and fallen and we need to come join the remnant of the seventh Adventists who are uh warning the world about this then the third Angel they assert this is talking about heralding the warning against worshiping the beast in its image or receiving the mark of the beast which will be worshiping on Sundays after the church and the state unite and pass a Sunday worship mandate which will be the image of the Beast they then contrast those who receive the mark with the Saints who keep the Commandments of God in the faith of

Jesus AKA The Seventh Day Adventist once this Sunday law is enforced they’ll have to take a stand against it and stand uh instead of they’ll have to stand for Saturday essentially which will result in them receiving not the mark of the beast but the Seal of God which is supposedly found in the fourth Commandment and the seal uh of the law being the uh the fourth Commandment in the Ten Commandments as Ellen White was also clear about in multiple places multiple times repeatedly quote I was shown that the third Angel proclaiming The Commandments of God in

The faith of Jesus represents the people who received this message and raised the voice of warning to the world to keep the Commandments of God and his law as the apple of the eye and that in response to this warning many would embrace the Sabbath of the Lord close quote so that’s five the third Angel’s message in Revelation 14 9-12 is supposedly a warning about Sunday being demonic in origin set up by Satan as a deception a tradition of men and anyone that doesn’t come join the sdas and observe the seventh day Sabbath They will receive the mark of the beast because they will

Obey the coming Sunday law versus the sdas who will take a stand against such and receive the Seal of God but wait there’s more except I forgot to update the uh actual quote itself which is hold on I can fix that sorry folks I got a duplicate slide in here but that’s why it’s nice to have sources like this okay just one second okay all right let’s try this

Again whoops okay let me full screen it quote the health reform I was shown is a part of the third Angel’s message and is just as closely connected with it as are the arm and the hand with the human body I saw that we as a people must make an advance move in this great work ministers and people must act in concert God’s people are not prepared for the loud cry of the third Angel they have a work to do for themselves which they should not leave for God to do for them he has left this work for them to do it’s an individual work one cannot do it for

Another meaning apparently the SDA Health message is also a part of what’s going on in Revelation 14 9-12 and that’s being taken to the World by them as well okay so here is a summary of what is question Revelation 14 6-2 allegedly a saying overall it’s it’s allegedly about a special end times gospel that only the Adventist Church has the angels of representative of the SDA Church the first Angel’s message is referring to millerism and the investigative judgment the Everlasting gospel and Revelation 146 is supposedly referring to the SDA Church’s unique message of Salvation

Including the investigative of judgment the second Angel’s message is allegedly about Protestants Roman Catholics Etc who are apostate Babylon and they need to leave their church and come join the SDA Church the third Angel’s message is supposedly about a coming Sunday law which will be the mark of the beast whereas joining the SDA church and observing the seventh day Sabbath as they have defined it will result in receiving the Seal of God and six Revelation 14 9-12 is also supposedly about the message of Health reform too and I’d like to remind everyone like I

Showed in the last Open Mic Ellen White said the remnant church is supposed to jump at the opportunity to do such and defend these positions diffuse the light that they have in every direction and show sinners like us what we must do in order to obtain salvation according to this Everlasting gospel message okay so the floor is open for any Adventist in the world that wants to focus on any particular aspect of this and show us from the biblical text that this is what’s going on in Revelation 146 through 12 Mike what are your thoughts on Revelation 14 uh according to them

I’m glad you had me off the screen when you were reading those because I couldn’t stop shaking my head I oh yeah I know Bonkers just you know three years before I have a quote here you may have you probably seen this but three years before she died Ellen White explicitly said that the Three Angels message like the third specifically the third Angel’s message is the most important thing for avenus to take to other people yeah she said it’s the the most important message ever given to the world yeah yeah all right it’s just crazy to me I I thought

Christ’s death I thought that was something that was yeah it’s just fascinating that uh they’ll they’ll tell you we like Ted I played all the time I’m Gonna Keep and I’ve said this before I’m gonna keep bringing this up I’m not going to let this die until they stop saying this because it drives me crazy we only uphold the historical grammatical method of Bible interpretation yeah utilize that in Revelation 14 and and tell us how you can arrive at the the applications you guys arrive at using the hgm let let’s hear it I’d love any advents in the

World if they could preferably a scholar of some sort John Peckham or whoever bring some person on here who can explain to us utilizing the hgm how you arrive at what they edce out of Revelation 14 using that method I’d love to because you’d have to conclude that John when he was like having this Vision was somehow seen this this millerite movement like 2,000 years later to like that’s what was going on like that makes no historic it makes no sense in the hgm and not just that but the hgm to to arrive at valid like NE app present day application you have to establish what

Was going on with the original audience why was John writing to his soon to persecuted audience about millerism like how would that make any sense and and Ellen White explicitly and the Adventist Church believes this that the first two angels messages have already been fulfilled well and not just that I talked about this in one of the members only streams uh well the last one the last Q&A that we had um because somebody was asking about this and she basically tried to claim that like they had to be rocla again so the first and second Angels message went out but then they

Had to be proclaimed again which is where it totally switched to because Miller wasn’t wasn’t proclaiming that it was talking about the investigative judgment and like you know these sorts of things that came out of the disappointment and so when that happened then it became a spin job where it was like oh actually no no no it has to be rocla again and then it became about the Sabbath and the state of the dead and warning people about that which millerites were not warning people about that so yeah it just there’s no way you would arrive at that through historical

Grammatical method of interpretation because zation to the original audience yeah people forget that John’s like again this is revelation it’s apocalyptic literature but John specifically wrote to seven churches like this had to have meaning to those seven churches and this whole like millerite movement stuff wouldn’t have meant anything it would have made it would have been nonsense it would have been it would have had no significance to the audience that John was writing to well and it’s predicate too upon this like I I still hear some Adventists that

Will say this in the modern day because this is what they were claiming in millerism because whoever they were exposed to in their small little sphere of reality they broad brushed that out to like the whole world whatever they experienced in their small little reality that was what the whole world was and so because they came across people that were like well we can’t actually know what Revelation is saying there’s this undertone of well we’ve cracked the code we God showed us and we do know what it’s saying everyone else believed it was a closed book until we

Came along folks this is nonsense I have with me right here um the oldest Commentary on Revelation in existence Andrew of cesaria Commentary on Revelation is the oldest Commentary on Revelation that we have actually I take that back um we just don’t have the full thing I have Victor rus’ commentary here which is a an amalgamation no pun intended of a number of commentators from the 3 Century up to um the venerable who was a medieval Theologian in the so so you mean miles this this idea that aist were like re like trying to rocla something that had been lost

You mean that’s not that that that’s not true no no no not at all people have been talking about and and Revelation has been getting expounded upon and executed upon for I mean by the time the millerites are around over a thousand years I mean well over a thousand years and so it’s just silly it’s not to say that I don’t necessarily agree with every commentator there on everything that they say but the point being is that um the the reason you have your standard positions on his like methodological interpretation of apocalyptic literature that you have

Today is because of the groundwork of individuals like that you amongst them you have some who were futurist leaning you have some that were uh prist leaning you have some that were modified idealist leaning like myself um then you had some who were premillennial you had some who were a millennial and you had some that would be considered like optimistic a millennial and so it’s just silly that they they tout this out as though it’s like we’ve cracked some special code and the Book of Revelation is All About Us ironically Pro probably one of the one

Of the best Scholars that has influenced my I mean there’s multiple ones that you are I know have appreciation for Beal um is one of them I know that you uh that you um of course you’ve got all the hard copies I’ve got it all in my digital library but David is very good as well but Dr Heiser Michael Heiser which is a guy that really transformed my entire perspective one of the things I really value that he has said is um he he basically says he he hates all end times systems all eschatological systems because every single system has a hole in it somewhere because the whole the

Whole purpose of apocalyptic literature is that it’s not supposed to be understood until it’s already been fulfilled until it’s already like done yeah I’ve heard Adventists that will they they will say yeah we agree we agree and they’ll try to use that as support for why their interpretation is actually correct because until it was fulfilled in the 19 century no one really knew whaty can we actually read Point Dr heiser’s getting at no can we read Revelation 146 7 I mean like then I saw another angel I know you’re pulling it up um I just find it interesting that

I think a lot of times avenus will engage in Dialogue on this and they haven’t even actually read the text and what it says and what it doesn’t say um take the organizational yeah um I mean I can I don’t know what version you have it in but uh nesb okay and I saw another Angel flying in mid heaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the Earth and to every tribe Nation tribe language and people can I just pause for a second just just pause for a second okay did the millerite movement preach this supposed gospel to Every Nation tribe language

And people yeah do you know their response to that a horrible one it it ties back into so folks for those that want a deep dive on this go to our website and on the left hand side quick click questions and answers scroll down to uh Three Angels messages and read the articles on the first and second Angel’s message because I go into that in there it goes in back into what I was telling you about this reimagining and reinterpreting of uh the first and second Angel Etc because obviously they recognized that millerism didn’t go to the entire world but that’s

What they claim is presently being done through the present 7eventh day Adventist Church and they’ll tout look how many countries we’re in we’re in 20 you know 213 countries what other group is in that many countries we’re going to all tribes tongues peoples and Nations and Jesus can’t return until this message go it’s like no dude this is the gospel that Jesus gave to the apostles that that’s what’s being talked about here is the gospel that Jesus gave to the apostles going out to the entire world that’s what it’s talking about not some special present truth end times

Gospel I do appreciate that John Pauline the very first individual that you put and it’s so funny because you were absolutely right when I was like doing some rep work on this and I had found the same exact quote without even knowing you were going to put it up um which by the way those of you that are looking at this quote this actually is in a this is in a what would be an online digital theological like class like this is what the the church teaches this is this is what you from reation yeah this is his Revelation this would be a seminar Seminary level like

Academic class and you know new uh New Testament 386 in their um sth AVST perspective on Revelation so you can’t disagree with this I mean I guess you can but you you wouldn’t line up with aan perspective um so it’s it’s very clear and I find it ironic that second highlighted area in fact sth day avist have often referred to their version their version okay of the Gospel like this whole idea like they’ve got a different kind a false gospel some people say that or a different gospel like at least John Pauline has the nerve to actually State the truth here it is absolutely a

Different gospel and it is incorporated into their framework of the Three Angels messages yeah and I just want to remind folks John Pauline has uh whether knowingly or unknowingly just committed the galatian heresy there um I mean full stop Paul very plainly says folks there’s only one gospel there’s not a limited gospel and the fullness of the gospel and all these sorts of things I’ve shown before with Herbert Douglas and all sorts of other Scholars where they try and do sophistry and word games on all this stuff to try and make it well like we saw James White it’s not a

New gospel but it has new components that the apostles didn’t preach yeah it’s a false gospel that’s what it is it’s not what Jesus gave to the apostles in Luke 24 and then sent them out beginning in Jerusalem the proclamation of the of of the the work and person of Christ for the Forgiveness of your sins now that’s a limited Gospel According to some of their Scholars they have the fullness of the Gospel yeah Paul calls the fullness of the goel apparently the apostles died for a limited gospel yeah they didn’t even have the Everlasting gospel supposedly the apostles didn’t

Have this fullness of the Gospel I’m Amazed that you’re so quickly deserting him who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel which is not just another account but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ but even if we or an angel from heaven or three angels from Heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we’ve preached to you he is to be a cursed anathema damned as we said before even now I’ll say it again he reemphasizes it if anyone’s preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received he’s to be

A cursed who who received Mike who received the Galatians and who they receive it from Paul the apostles which he then goes on to say in the next few verses for am I now seeking the favor of people or of God or am I striving to please people if I were still trying to PE essentially be a people pleaser I wouldn’t be a bond servant of Christ for I would have you know brothers and sisters that the gospel which was preached by me is not of human invention for I neither received it from man nor was I taught it but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ not

Through a revelation of LG white or any human for that matter I mean Christ is obviously has has a human name but he’s clearly talking here about it was not of some mere human origin like like this is the other thing Ellen White actually contradicts this we have an article on this on our website too she claims that Paul was taught the gospel by the apostles no no because when Paul gets to Jerusalem and F and meets up with the apostles the reason the apostles legitimately know that he had a revelation from Jesus Christ is because he shares the gospel with them and they

Knew we didn’t teach this to you you had to have gotten this from Jesus Christ himself so she contradicts the scriptures here as well again we have an article on that for those that want to check it out but the point being is there is no version of The Gospel see there’s this undertone as well Mike and I’m sure that you saw this when you were in adventism there’s this undertone of like well Baptists have a gospel Presbyterians have a gospel lutherans have a gospel so we’re just like everyone else we have a gospel too and then you kind of have to like find which

One is the right no no that that’s not at all what’s what’s going on the problem is the looseness of language um and I’ve started getting a lot more precise on this um I’m going to be on a friend’s podcast in a couple weeks talking about the Adventist gospel and I’m going to be getting into this some on there because when we talk about false gospel if you only go that far or that deep with an Adventist in my experience you’re going to do a lot of talking past one another because they don’t really understand what it is that you’re what are you saying is false so

I’ve been having a lot of conversations with SDA is trying to get more technical with them and I’ve been seeing a lot more success there’s the objective aspect of the Gospel which is the actual message itself which is what’s summarized in the Apostles Creed I would say the apostles and the ncing Creed who is God and and what is this message and you know God is Triune born of a virgin suffered under pontious pilot lived a perfectly sinless life died buried rose again on the third day for our justification and for the Forgiveness of our sins Etc the actual message there is

Then the subjective aspect of the Gospel meaning how is one now benefited thereby that good news how do you actually receive the benefit of it you don’t receive benefit by just hearing it so there’s objectively the message and then there’s subjectively how are you then benefited by that Catholics and Protestants for example would disagree on the subjective aspect of the Gospel Orthodoxy Etc but we all agree for example on the objectivity of the Gospel the thing that’s interesting about seventh day adventism is they’re off on both the objectivity and subjectivity of

The Gospel they’re not even correct on just the message itself they Trojan Horse and add all sorts of things to it yeah I I have found um it’s been a weird experience I’m sure you experienced it when you know early on when you left adventism but for me a lot of the things I was told that was like out there or people believed out in the Christian World outside the circles of adventism I like actually isn’t what they believe like it’s like a it’s like a weird buffer that Adventists like project on you know the the congregation to to like convince them everything’s

Fine here what we believe is normal what they believe out there is awful this is our present Truth by by the way the three angels’s message is also included in the present truth concept yeah um so I have just found like wow that’s not the case like Christians actually on most things on most things Christians are united on E even all the different denominations on the core things of the gospel and what Christianity is like they are all United on it what separates them is all these secondary things that aren’t tied to the actual you know the actual gospel itself yeah but see the

Problem is they can’t differentiate between secondary level doctrines everything is seen as salvific everything you have to have all 28 all 28 of them it’s not even just that they don’t even have for example a uh a fundamental belief on sin you ever noticed that they just assume their faulty understanding of sin throughout the beliefs wherever they mention there’s not even a fundamental belief on that that’s because of their belief on the Ten Commandments they already know what sin is it’s just it’s just yeah it’s well the thing that’s interesting too is

Like like you said is all this hubub I’m working on a series currently that’s gonna uh we’re going to do the first one oh in two or three weeks I can’t remember exactly um where I’m going to be going through it’s going to be a multi-part thing where I’m going to be tackling this from a different angle because I’m big on um I like to try and Trace things back to Origins like where did all of this start like what was the what was the first Domino that like started this sort of thing so I’m kind of tracing that and along that the way uh well the overall

Thesis is tracking this this war the Adventist Church’s war on the Christian church and so um that you’re G to get into Babylon obviously and where that comes from and Charles Fitch and the millerites and why Ellen White was primed to be to be accepting of such an idea due to her own experience with methodism and these sorts of things and there’s just there’s so many vestages that are carried over from all of that stuff and it really just all comes down to in my opinion it comes down to this sort of just angst and disdain that Ellen White had for the Christian church

That still is is permeating their their system today and then out of that as well you get this idea of um we have it all figured out we have the theological God Particle God showed it to Ellen White we were reward wed for our deep Bible study you know all those Protestants and Confused Babylonians out there they don’t really understand the Bible in fact their preachers when they’re preaching Through the Bible are actually deceived by Satan and the people in the pews they’re false converts who aren’t actually studying the Bible for themselves they’re just

Taking what their deceived preacher is telling them because Satan’s using him as a tool these sorts of things that she said in spirit of Prophecy but uh all of that to say it it’s just laughable it’s like what are you talking about you’re you’re not a presbyterian I’m a presbyterian yet I guarantee you I guarantee you you and I have more Unity than the average 7thday Adventists if I were to bring three seventh day Adventists here and started asking them stuff about what is considered core for them versus what we are considering core I could you’re G to get 15 different

Answers from three different people you are going to get they’re not going to be able to explain the investigative judgment to you they’re not going to be able to explain the seven-step sanctuary typology they’re not going to be able to explain any of this stuff yet their primary source documentation telling us this stuff is fundamental to understand so well and and I think what’s challenging I mean I I just had some conversations just recently because i’ I’ve kicked off a series on um on on the law on Sabbath and some of the things that we’ve been dialoguing on but

Um many times when when an AVST responds it’s oh s silly you Mike I mean I this is just the simple reading of the text I don’t know why you’re so confused why are you trying to make it so complicated and it’s like it’s like this weird flipped like psycho I don’t know I don’t want to say it’s psycho but like the way they understand scripture is in such a bubble that has to and and it has to conform to Ellen White even if even if the the person doesn’t actually believe in that’s what’s that’s what’s weird is I had another individual even this evening say well like well I

Studied scripture without Ellen White and I came to my own conclusions ironically everything lines up with Ellen White even though I don’t I don’t accept Ellen White like how does that happen yeah because clearly you’ve been influenced by a system and you don’t understand that this system filters all this stuff through Ellen White’s commentary I don’t care it’s like I was just at the former AVST conference last week out in California and had some great ation out there met a lot of great people and this is one of the things that we talked about is

Like so many former Adventists are asking what do you say to Adventist because they there’s so many that love to say my pastor never even mentions Ellen White I never even hear Ellen White these sorts of things friend you just don’t understand how this works Ellen White’s name doesn’t even have to be mentioned I guarantee you I guarantee you you have vestages of Ellen White’s theology in your thinking whether you understand that or not whether you’ve picked up any of her books or not because I can start asking you questions and you’re going to give me answers that

Are coming essentially from Ellen White you’ve simply been given those by the organization I get it I was there at one point too Mike was there at one point too I get it and what they mean by it’s based on the Bible is I have a proof text that I can point to like Revelation 14 folks this whole chapter is about the wicked being judged William Miller had that part correct for all his other craziness and errors and his method of Bible interpretation his rules that he came up with he was actually correct that this is a chapter all about the wicked then in this reimagining of the

The first and second Angels message that oh it’s actually warning about Sunday keeping and the immortality of the soul and it’s letting people know about the investigative judgment well the investigative judgment is supposedly only for professed Believers all this stuff is them supposedly giving a warning to Christians who are a part of the wicked world so that’s why they they see no problem with yeah this chapter’s all about the wicked you’re part of the wicked no I’m a Christian this chapter is not about me but see that mil no no you’re not Miles

Because you worship on Sunday you can’t be a Christian but at the same time they they’re Christians just like we are you’re my brother we’re we’re brothers it’s just I I have a new nickname for this system mic and I call it schizophrenic theology because that’s what it is it is just like every turn is just con stantly something so this whole chapter is clearly about the wicked it’s not about warning about but again you have to have that underlying presupposition of God has rejected all of them we’re the remnant we’re special we’re the apple of God’s eye the

Depository of his law we’re repairing the breach of the law um we’re we’re essentially you know warning against Pap the papacy and the coming Sunday law and church and state and and all these sorts of things and so all those apostate Protestants they’re uh they’re basically no different than in the Wicked World and so yeah this chapter can be about them but no it’s it’s not it’s it’s about the whole book of Revelation is about the church essentially I would argue is is essentially an overview of all of Redemptive history from the essentially the Ascension to um the this

The escaton the the entering into the consummation of all things and it’s essentially the modern application for us today is an encouragement that in all ages whether you live in 2025 or 600 or 11 00 Christ has overcome the world he’s ruling and reigning all of his enemies are going to be conquered and throughout the the leading up to the escaton the enemy is going to be Waring against the Christian church and the kingdom of God but it’s not going to Prevail because Christ has already overcome the world that’s the overarching theme so this chapter is in complete accordance with

That and it’s talking about the gospel that Jesus gave to the apostles going out to the whole world nothing about young Earth creationism and Darwinism and protest and Roman Catholics and seventh day sabbatarianism I mean it’s crazy Mike they’ll point to the word well look it says worship Him who made Heaven and Earth well go back to to Genesis 2 now where it talks about the Sabbath and God resting in creation and young Earth creation if you don’t all because of like a single word that they’ll just latch on to so very clearly it’s talking about these things that’s

That type ofu but that honors sorry I just hit the mute button that honors um really the I don’t mean this to be too sarcastic but it honors the way William Miller actually studied I mean he he studied with a Bible in a concordance and so he was all about you know he’s all about like finding a word and then trying to latch that word onto you know and I and I fundamentally think that and I think this is true with all humans I think we all are trying to do things um right I I don’t think that he thought he was trying to be decep or wrong I think he had good intent when he

Repented so but Adventist actually forget that he actually he actually repented and went back like he didn’t stay in his like actually Ellen White would have called him a condemned Satan like tool of the devil because he because he rejected his own meth message and apparently that’s that’s like not just that the Visions the visions that come after all that she says that the people that ended up giving up that didn’t continue going along with the the new theories and that sort of stuff they fell off the The Path down into the wicked world that God had

Rejected so that included Miller yeah but yet here you go here’s your schizophrenia right because but yet she basically says he was amazing like he and he’s gonna be in heaven doesn’t she say something about that he was an American reformer yeah she talks about his crown if I remember correctly that he’s gonna have a glorious you know crown or whatever I got into at the former AVST conference Mike I’ll be curious I want to hear your thoughts on this um since we’re kind of on this subject what what did you hear when you were in adventism about the the special

Resurrection did you ever hear about the special Resurrection in reference to like those that were resurrected with Jesus well so you know that they normatively speaking within Orthodox SDA theology they teach about they teach two Resurrection events there there’s the resurrection of the righteous at the beginning and then at the second coming yeah and then they’ll go off to heaven for a thousand years and Satan will be alone because all the Wicked Will be killed off by the brightness of his coming Etc after the time of trouble and then Satan will be bound on the earth

For A Thousand Years by himself and they’ll be up in heaven doing the second phase now after the first phase of judgment the investigative judment judgment is finished they’ll have the millennial Reign judgment where they’re going to be looking over the books and looking over what God’s about to do in the final third phase of execution of that of of judgment um they’re gonna be able to look over and see why is Grandma not here and and why you know the angels apostatized and these sorts of things and then after that the they’ll be the resurrection of the wicked where Satan’s

Going to have one final Harrah and then they’re going to be destroyed with fire but but if you go into the vision which I see a lot of former Adventists that like to explore upon this um if you go into the the food for worms Vision where some people that are here are going to be alive when the second coming happens um during that era of time there was a teaching around the special resurrection that those who were heralding the Three Angels messages they were going to have a special Resurrection for them oh did you ever hear about that when you were in adventism I don’t think

I ever where is that in the Bible yeah um so how many how many resurrections are we up to now three can we have more like the ones that just decide that after the after the after they get burned they want to come back can we just have another one can we like make up some additional ones for well again I I I haven’t heard anything about the special Resurrection in modern times for for a man maybe they’re still I think they’ve kind of tried to because this was tied to the 144,000 that the the modern scholarship has eventually they just landed on saying well we were never very specific

About it we just said it was a group of people who’s gonna be alive at the second coming oh except for all those years where they were like completely changing their theories around so so I will say some of the books um I have read on elleno and I know this is so this this is the Big Challenge I think for current Adventist um I think it’s difficult for Adventist to pick up a book by a former Adventist or by a not even an I mean even if like Ronald numbers is where I’m going like Ronald numbers his book while it’s not the easiest read yeah it’s a scholar what he does is

He puts her Vis like Ellen White’s Visions in the historical context of when they were given and why they were given to help to help an Adventist or a former Adventist understand why she was saying what she’s saying and what you’re what I concluded what I really saw through all that is I didn’t realize the I’m going to say this in a way that I’m G to I didn’t realize the weapon that she wielded when she had Visions because she really did wield Authority so things like you know things like tithing people don’t understand where tithing comes from in the aen system I

Mean that literally we a the avenus system would not have their stewardship Doctrine if it wasn’t for Ellen White and at first it was turned down by the Pioneers they didn’t want to do anything but then you know Ellen White’s husband went and put this together and then she had a vision after that that like stamped it and like well they had to inform because well they saw her as authoritative when a vision was given so Not only was it when when Visions were given to her but then she would have them on her own and she would cast judgment on people I mean that’s a lot

Of the letters that she wrote a lot of the manuscripts that a lot of a lot of wish that they hadn’t have published even testimonies for the church man I I did a deep dive video on tithe not too long ago um for those that want to go check that out I went through all of that stuff and showed exactly that because they’re going to come back Mike and they’re going to say no no no it’s based on the Bible bro yeah I showed all that and what they’re what they’re appealing to is Malachi chapter 3 and they wouldn’t be in the predicament that they’re in of tying

Being cursed by God if you don’t tithe to the SDA Storehouse that’s what they try to pull out of that is is that it’s applicable to the SDA church and that’s the storehouse and you’ll be cursed by God if you don’t they wouldn’t be in that predicament had Ellen White not given her supposedly divinely inspired commentary on Malachi chapter 3 tying it to the New Testament because initially their system that they came up with there’s nothing wrong with that the systematic benevolence that they were coming up with they were basically fledgling the the system was not going

To be able to last without the financing that they needed and so they came up with this systematic benevolence concept which didn’t include tithe at all it was basically just a new testament idea of God loves a cheerful giver but that then evolves because people obviously didn’t just get on board with this this was done in in the you know behind closed doors through the leaders and then brought out to the people and the people obviously just didn’t accept it hookline and sinker and then oh conveniently Ellen White gets a vision and now everyone gets on board that’s they have

To get on they have to get on that’s what you’re getting well yeah because that’s supposedly God speaking to them or else you’re apostate and you hate the prophet that it’s just oh dude some of some of the Visions are just crazy it’s like dude are you serious she claimed to be shown somebody asked this in the members Q&A the last one again last one was really good folks for those that want to check that out Shameless plug there on the the members only section you can join that by clicking the little join button down below this video you’ll have to be on a

Desktop computer to do so but Q&A number seven was it was excellent somebody asked about this and they said did you ever hear about Ellen White claiming to be shown in vision that some of the people specifically the men were leaving the camp meeting to go engage in self-abuse the phrase that she used to to talk about oh oh that that Vice that masturbation Vice that side note just before you go into that I want to know how she knew so much about this well that’s what I’m saying you’re telling me God Gave You pornographic Visions that’s essentially what you’re saying there’s

Some people that she’s saying this specific individual God showed me you left and you went to tug one off like what so there’s just a full gamut there of like you’re getting biblical commentary but then you’re getting like you said yeah personal rebukes like I God showed me this like when you had the the Kur fuffle with the guys that went and started the messenger party I talk about that in the tith video as well um she had all sorts of stuff on them too there was a lady at the church um the two guys that that ended up leaving and became these according to the

Organization apostates um and started the messenger party um there was a Kur fuffle at one of the churches and then Ellen came to to clear the air to like and she’s claimed to be shown that oh no they were the the two gentlemen they were correct about this debacle with a lady at one of the churches and then within less than 24 hours she flip-flops actually no God showed me she’s correct and you two are actually in the wrong so she functioned in all sorts of ways outside of what I think a lot of the average Adventists is even aware of when they try to do this sort of like she’s

No different than she’s no different than just like Martin Luther or like a commentator no dude listen she functioned she is so different than any other prophet in the Old Testament by far like she she totally different like the stuff that she supposedly saw which I’m convinced that was not from God I think she did have a you know a special guide but I don’t think it was a guide from God I think it was something else yeah easily easily yeah yeah I know it man well if any you think we’re gonna have anyone show up and defend this important Three Angels you’d think this

Is like one of the most important things I mean again according to the prophetes this is the most important message God has ever given to the world she said and if any Adventist wants to challenge that I’m happy to bring up the sources on such um they’re on both our website and then I can easily access them on the online Ellen White Library so uh I just want to remind them again as well that this is the same woman that said that Adventists need to jump at the opportunity to defend this present truth message with joy and be able to show us that’s what we’re

Asking is to be shown from scripture that what the Adventist Church claims Revelation 14 6-12 is teaching is indeed what it is teaching because we are of the opinion and belief no it is not it’s not talking about seventh day sabari inis the state of the Dead Health message investigative judgment young Earth creationism Darwinism Protestants Roman Catholics none of that stuff is is what’s going on here and I preferably would love to see I’ve been you know I keep getting sda’s Mike that they love to try and Hound me why don’t you bring an admin a scholar

On here folks you need to understand your champion are not the people you think they are we have been trying to do this for at this point years years they won’t they won’t they won’t even sit down and just have the discussion I’ve asked some of these guys I won’t even all I’m going to do is literally ask questions we can do it in person I’ll come on my own dime to record it because I’m trying to appease and just show people look I’m not just saying this I’m not just making this up they won’t do it they won’t do it so I would love love for one of them though to come on here

Or to sit down and have a discussion and utilize the hgm for us and come to this conclusion show us parse out the text and show us that John writing to his first second century audience whatever it was that this is what he he’s writing to them about that there’s going to be a millerite movement that’s again the same thing I did a video on this recently Revelation 10 9-10 they they claimed that John eating the scroll and his stomach becoming bitter was a prophecy about the millerite movement being disappointed that the bitterness that was left in their stomach due to the

Prophetic message that is representative of the scroll that he ate so the so John in the text is supposed to be a typological picture of the millerite movement and the scroll was supposed to be the special prophetic message that they had and then when they were disappointed that’s why it was bitter to John’s stomach y right again please utilize the hgm for us and show us that you could ever come to such a conclusion they won’t do it they won’t do it so well they don’t want to make themselves look like idiots which is why and I don’t think they’re allowed to if I’m being

Very transparent because if they if they do speak up and they get in a public forum where they you know disagree then they’re well then their job is gone hey I don’t know how quickly you can uh pull this up but early writings yep um I’ve already got it right here what page early writings page 258 what par okay I guess the paragraph doesn’t matter you have to tell me it’s literally the the beginning of that chapter a firm is the chapter on will yeah on William Miller yeah yeah um I I just want I want avenus to understand well I guess those of you that aren’t

Avist as well um this is not just like Ellen White claiming something is that the right one 258 uh I saw who stood uh we can command F that you’re probably in a different version or at a different paragraph yeah different just different paragraph there you go there you go there you go yeah yeah yeah this is what I wanted to to show um this isn’t like Ellen White’s interpretation of something this is literally so important supposedly to Ellen White that her angel actually was telling her this is a quote yeah from her accompanying Angel okay I saw accompany who stood well guarded and

Firm giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body God looked upon them with approbation I was shown three steps well you could read the Bible and you’d have them but the first second and third Angel’s messages said my here we go said my accompanying Angel quote woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages the true understanding of these messages is of vital importance the destiny of souls hangs upon the manner in which they are received this is like this is apparently so important that it’s more important

Than you understanding what Christ did on the cross your soul hangs in the balance said her accompanying devil I mean accompanying angel I’m sorry that was a little I’m sorry yeah one blocker pin is not supposed to be stirred or you know moved it’s just like she says in that issue of reviewing Herold where she’s like we have the old landmarks of Truth not a single pillar is supposed to be altered Etc yeah except you got things wrong like five times and had to reimagine things and like reinagle things and so I know conveniently well I was just gonna say

Miles how how would you if you and I were to actually test what she teaches on this how would we be able to properly test her if whatever she said like you can’t move one pin like you you can’t you can’t even test what she’s saying as truth if supposedly her interpretation that’s the problem with infallible interpreters it it it creates a I would argue like a reductio ad absurdum argument you have an infinite regress of having because then what you have is you’ll get Adventists that tell you well you have to have an Adventist there to help you understand the

Infallible interpreter who you need to actually be able to understand the Bible it just creates this infinite chain of we have to go here to understand this and and that’s what it ends up resulting in because at the end of the day and the only infallible interpreter is the holy spirit I mean that’s the only yeah it’s interesting how many of their so like it’s been a minute since I’ve got into this with like my Roman Catholic friends but this is one of the things obviously that was debated and argued in the Reformation was infallible authorities that’s what solos scripture

Is actually about it’s not saying tradition doesn’t matter it’s not saying the Bible and me under the tree and just whatever I read and come to like William Miller did no that’s a totally different concept called nuda scriptura or biblicism or Bible onlyism which has every single time without fail folks every single time go look it up look up the socinians for example that’s who else the reformers had to deal with in in their day I was just earlier in Francis turin’s elenctic Theology and he’s talking about the socinians and refuting the socinians and all of their

Stuff was heretical because they had this Bible only mentality they were like unitarians they came to all sorts of wacky conclusions they had a false gospel and it was just we just believe the Bible we just read the Bible and the Bible alone yeah every group that has done that in history ends up going way out in left field and ends up espousing and resurrecting a bunch of ancient heresy that they think is some restoration of Truth when it’s like no you’re just resurrecting a bunch of ancient heresies have you have you heard miles um so I heard recently I don’t know

Maybe maybe it’s been a month or two ago I heard someone argue that Adventists believe in Prima scriptura have you heard that scriptura yeah which is again which is again okay this is just like going back to discussing with Roman Catholics that’s what Roman Catholics will tell you oh so so it’s identical so they’re like way more like Catholics than they except here’s the thing here’s the thing here’s the thing that’s different between they’re more insane on this though than the Roman Catholic position Adventists in the audience their heads just exploded yeah it’s true the Roman

Catholic Church hasn’t been as bold as the Adventist Church or rather as Ellen White was in uh essentially giving an infallible interpretation of any given passage of the Bible they have a commentary the Ln SDA Bible commentary that’s what it’s called the LNG white SDA Bible commentary covers Genesis to Revelation and they view that as inspired commentary the Roman sea hasn’t the holy sea has not even come close to to doing such a thing as far as I’m understand there’s only a handful of passages that they’ve given infallible interpretations on so even though they

They claim to have an infallible what they would call like a three-legged stool um scripture tradition and and the magisterium um capital T tradition by the way not just any tradition but but the the great tradition um even they don’t make the claim that the SDA church is so I I commend them for that though because that’s kind of my argument is like if you have this infallible interpreter of scripture you should just give us an infallible interpretation of the entire book and just there you go it’s it’s settled now um if you’re going to claim to to have that and I know that

They have Arguments for at least the Roman Catholics do for why they have um but yeah the the SDA Church allegedly has an infallible interpretation On Any Given passage of scripture so yeah they do try to say if it’s infallible why is it so confusing to me I I don’t understand that and it’s just nonsense because it isn’t Prima scriptura it still isn’t PR because you can’t you’re stuck in a circular problem I’ve pointed this out I don’t know how many times in the fundamental beliefs book they use Uriah Smith’s analogy from the review in Herald where they are

Trying to explain in chapter 18 how Ellen White functions and he explains it being like a voyage and life is the parallel to the voyage and on this Voyage they have a book that gives them a general overview which is the Bible uh of the the Journey of life but that book they claim at the says that at the end of The Voyage there’s going to be tumultuous times so in the end times there’s going to be a lot of craziness and and confusion God will then send forth a pilot and that pilot will be the one that helps them navigate the tumultuous times and really be able to

Navigate the book and so that’s the problem is okay you have to have this pilot to be able to actually really understand what the Bible is saying but at the same time you just told us that you found out about the pilot by reading the Bible Well you just told us you can’t understand the Bible without the pilot hello it just it’s it’s constantly circular problems that’s the problem is like well it’s Prima scriptura well no it’s not because Ellen White’s commentary on the scrip RT is really what’s ultimate because we can’t understand the Bible without that

Supposedly we’ll come we’ll be Babylon we’ll end up being confused Etc you mentioned earlier unity and those sorts of things and it’s just it’s funny man because it’s like I spend a lot of time in various um typically depends on the the context I’m I’m spending a lot of time in in different Protestant confessions so the reformed confessions the Lutheran confessions and then some of the Baptist confessions um and even the Anglican confessions and even to some degree Methodist confessions um they have a little Aster next to their name regarding protestantism but nevertheless um it’s

Like man those confessions are like 95% in unity that they just word things like in a different way because at the end of the day they’re typically just restating things that are found in the Apostles Creed or the Ning Creed and they’re just expounding upon it with scripture and so it’s like 95% of the stuff in there is it’s 100% on the gospel lit both objective objectively and subjectively not just the objective component but objectively and subjectively unified across the board regardless of what confession you read then you even get to secondary doctrines and yeah I’m aware

Of the differences between you know the christology of the the lutherans over to say the reformed um regarding the Eucharist and the Lord’s supper and those types of things but again the unity far far far outweighs any sort of division um but they don’t understand so like whenever I bring that up to an Adventist they’ll be like well well look you guys have separate churches well right because some of those differences make their way so for example Baptists reject infant baptism that’s a part of the church’s liturgy so at my church we do infant baptisms so Baptists are going to

Worship in a different building because liturgically they’re going to have differences in that area now we can get into arguing those sorts of things but the point being is they’re still Christians they’re just worshiping in a different building I was out doing Street evangelism before doing answering adventism pretty regularly and I didn’t care regarding the denominational name of the people I was out there with I cared that the people that were out there were were Christians that believed in the true God and were sharing the true gospel with people that’s what I

Cared about I was out there with like a Pentecostal guy a Lutheran pres a presbyterian and two Baptists one of the Baptist guys wasn’t even reformed in traditional Christian I mean you are unified but I and I say this I’ve said this before Adventists adventism the entire framework is almost like they’re a severed appendage to the body of Christ because they just aren’t UNIF like they are so separate in their theology that they they can’t physically be United I mean even even their you know okay there are other Christian denominations that teach the Sabbath

Truth for example like yes okay that’s true um they don’t teach it the same way they don’t teach it the same way because the Adventist understanding of Sabbath ties to their understanding of Revelation and the mark of the beast and the Seal of God and like all of a sudden now you’ve just castrated the rest of you know I mean you you’ve neutered the gospels which you’ve done effectively do you miles I’m wondering do you have and I can share my screen if you need me to do you have the um do you have the handbook of Seventh Day Adventist theology perhaps I do what

Page would you like um page 886 yeah I cite that book constantly so I’m gonna bring you up I’m gonna go grab the physical copy of it and you say to the audience what you’d like to say well I uh the the reason why I I and I I hope the audience um I would encourage the audience especially if you are Adventist um you know even if you’re not you need to get this book because this is the handbook this is physically what the Adventist Church teaches theologically um and so this particular section is going to be on the remnant The Three Angels messages uh we probably

Don’t have enough time to read the first second and third but I want yes yes I want to go to the third specifically to their understanding of the third Angel’s message because page 886 uh I believe it’s 885 886 somewhere in there third Angel’s message yep and the reason why this is so important is because aanus have to understand and I’m gonna actually I’m gonna actually read a very short quote okay this is from Ellen White this is from an austral austral Union Conference record okay yeah and she says the great final crisis is just before us it’s imminent Jesus is coming

It’s great it’s imminent right she says this when the destiny of every human being will be forever decided a great work is to be done in setting before men the saving truths of the Gospel the present truth the the present these to sorry to present these truths in the work of the third Angel’s message the Lord designed that the presentation of this message shall be the highest greatest work carried on in our world at this time this is literally the most important thing so I want to go to what Adventists teach of what it is which is why I go to the handbook I

Don’t go to the abous in the Pew because they’re not going to know actually what they teach to be and I don’t mean that to be sarcastic most aists don’t know what the third Angel’s message is in the aist framework but if you read through um I mean the third Angel’s message um do you want me to put this on the screen by the way sure uh let me just want to share your screen and yeah let me do that uh that way the a audience can actually see and I have it highlighted so um but this is this is literally the same exact section that um he was pulling up this is from uh just so you

Can see the handbook of Seventh Day Adventist theology okay so here you go you want to know what y’all hey look at that author LG white all right um here’s what here’s what Adventists understand the theological understanding of the third Angel’s message finally emerged among sabbatarian Adventist during the series of Bible conferences in 1848 as the sanctuary theology developed they followed Christ by faith into the most holy place I don’t know how that works how how are they able to actually follow them into the most holy place I thought they were sinful people

Anyways sorry from Revelation 11:19 they derive the ability validating uh validity of God’s covenant with its sacred Arc containing the decalogue considering Revelation 14:12 as the central truth of the third Angel’s message they identify the Commandments of God with the Ten Commandments in 1846 Joseph Bates convinced James and Ellen White that the fourth Commandment should be restored to the true worship of God Ellen G white viewed the seventh day Sabbath as the separating wall this is really this is her reinterpretation by the way this is her taking Paul completely out of

Context the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers although she acknowledged at the same time that God had children who do not see and keep the Sabbath this concept elevated the Sabbath truth to the status of a sealing message you want to know why ainst teach that Sabbath is the Seal of God it is in their interpretation of the third Angel’s message and it is stamped and approved by Ellen G white so you don’t have to believe in her you don’t have to even have her from the pulpit it’s already in the theology if you’re an avenus or testing Truth for standing

With the remnant Church of Revelation 143 uh 14:12 the faith of Jesus was interpreted there you go this is their interpretation as all the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament or the precepts and doctrines of the Gospel although the several years have passed uh the phrase the testimony of Jesus was used as a synonym for Faith of Jesus a new interpretation emerged in the 1980s now the testimony of Jesus was linked here you go miles what does that what does that mean miles uh Jesus is allegedly speaking through the writings of Ellen White and therefore they have the testimony of

Jesus because they claim that it’s a prophetic word that will be given to an end times people where Jesus is uniquely speaking so this is tied to and whether or not you believe it or not as an Adventist okay this is tied to the Adventist theology around the third Angel’s message that supposedly is the most important thing to tell everyone in the world so if you don’t understand the third Angel’s message as an avenus then you don’t understand the importance inside of your theology and it’s all tied it’s all tied to saboten ISM it’s all tied to present truth it’s all tied

To Ellen White like you have to accept her as a prophet because that that is part of the linking the the key to the third the avenus understanding of the third Angel’s message this in interpretation and I always say this because avenus do not like to state that it’s their interpretation it’s doesn’t mean it’s what the text says it’s their interpretation became an identifying sign of the remnant Church their church and was integrated into missionary proclamation of the Seventh Adventist Church the interpretation of the beast in its image there you go again it’s all

Tied came to be the vital importance for the understanding of the third Angel’s message in 1851 J and Andrews identified the Beast with the Beast of Revelation 13 which was a prophetic development of the fourth Beast both symbolic beasts of Daniel 7 and Daniel uh Revelation 13 Ascend out of the sea after listing five other points of similarity Andre concluded quote the Beast is evidently the papal form of the fourth Empire and I’ll just kind of pause there for a second um it is really important for avenus to understand that all of this like if you don’t get this if you

Don’t understand as avenus how this all integrates like the third Angel’s message is is supposedly again Ellen White said it was the most important is it is more important than anything else anything else it is the most important thing it’s tied to Sabbath it’s tied to their understanding of the papal power being the Beast it’s their understanding of I mean Ellen White as a prophet I know they everything you can’t come to me and say oh Mike I’m in Avage but I I don’t really I don’t read Ellen White I don’t believe like she’s really what like I well then you’re not an aous friend

Yeah you’re Adventist in name only because you can’t have adventism without her that so many of us have tried this folks this adventism light is what I call it it’s like well I don’t really accept Ellen no it’s a package deal it’s a package deal I can show you tons of primary sources that say this it’s a package deal you you have to have it by by rejecting Ellen you’re then also rejecting at the Adventist Church being the remnant that’s supposed to be part of the identifying mark that they’re the Remnant so if they’re not the remnant well now they’ve lost this

Whole special prophetic end times identity that we need to come join them because we’re all Babylon the whole thing collapses you have to have all of that yeah yeah um Mike did you want to read anything else from that well and I was going to turn off the highlights just to maybe make it a little bit easier um I just want people to understand that Andrews and Bates like if if you don’t like if you’re an avenus and you haven’t studied what Andrews and Bates and Ellen White and all the Pioneers like the importance of what they played in your the even if you don’t agree even if you

Don’t think Ellen White is X Y and Z you need to understand where your theology actually came from yep that’s my challenge to any AVST that’s watching this right now like if you haven’t studied this I would say don’t get into debates online about your theology your aist theology without studying this stuff because th this is this is what you and I are engaging in this is what we go to this is why we say what we say it’s not what is in the pews of the Adventist Church and we’re not condemning Adventists this is this is us talking about the theological system of the

Ainst church and quite frankly um I I created I won’t show you this but I created a special highlight liting palet in my study of adventism and I have a very special one that’s called heresy it literally says heresy and the number of times that I use that tool because it they teach a different gospel it is a totally different approach to the work of Christ the importance of what we’re supposed to be doing in the end times we are not supposed to be converting people into Adventists that is not the function of the third Angel’s message from a Biblical standpoint yeah

They’ll tell you the third Angels messages is about warning the world about Satan’s deceptions no that that’s not the gospel the gospel is not warning people about Satan’s deceptions no already a defeated foe yes good the gospel means good news it’s a message of good news about who Christ is and what Christ accomplished that’s the gospel not warning not about Satan not warning people about Satan that there’s a deceiver this all gets into Mike the the the Paradigm of like I honestly just I pity Adventists who they constantly hammer on things like the mark of the

Beast Etc and you’ll hear them say well because you don’t want to be deceived in the end that just presupposes a very weak God a god who’s constantly testing you like I’m going to see if you’re going to really be able that’s not the god of the the Bible the god of the Bible keeps his people he protects his people I’m not worried about being deceived in the end because I trust God and I trust God’s protection I trust Jesus’s own words um I hear the shepherd’s voice and I follow him I’m not but this all gets birth out of the great disappointment and oh the

Millerite chart was a test from God and the Sabbath is a test from God and you’re on probation and all these things are are like Ste all fear mongering it’s all fear based and interestingly it’s all rooted back into keeping you tied to the Adventist organization yes if you want to remain safe stay in the organization don’t look outside the organization don’t question things outside the organization or or question things within the organization about people outside the organization and what they’re saying Etc yeah so M miles before I unshare my screen this is

Just the third Angel’s message I want all of all of my Adventist friends that are watching right now that say I don’t I like my pastor doesn’t preach Len I don’t what okay this is the handbook on avenus theology that you’re looking at this is what you’re supposed to believe okay I want you to notice the number of Bible texts versus Ellen White quotes as I scroll through here Revelation Revelation Ellen White Revelation Revelation just just start to look there’s there’s Bible quotes here but then when we get into interpretation we have this is reviews yeah no that’s lero F’s

Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers y Ellen White here’s Nicholls who is a good friend I mean I think idolized Ellen White testimony midcentury SDA apolog just you go through here and you can’t say that I’m an Adventist and I don’t I don’t believe XY andz about Ellen White the church believes she’s a prophet the church uses her as interpret I’m going to show this again one more time okay I want you to notice Handbook of seventh day AVST theology author Len G white published by th this is yes I there is another individual here there’s r deran that was

The individual that wrote all the other stuff but you got to understand the Adventist Church understands Ellen White’s role as The Interpreter I mean it’s in their handbook well not just that Mike but literally at the end of every chapter so I have the one here from from 2000 um and at the end of every single chapter so here for example the one on Revelation and inspiration I I cite this chapter a lot probably the the most out of this this book because that’s the subject that we’re on this one was written by another individual who I cite pretty frequently uh former Professor

Rep at Andrews Peter Van bmlin I cite his paper on justification by faith and Advent understanding all the time time at the end of this chapter what’s the final section in every single one of these chapters I’m gonna read it for you folks it’s it’s all Ellen White Ellen G white’s comments and it’s a section how Ellen White’s comments and quotes Christ object lessons great controversy great controversy great controversy testimonies for the church Volume 5 medical Ministry Christ object lessons early writings evangelism testimonies for the church volume Five again it’s

Just constant over and over uh Christ object lessons Len white SDA Bible commentary volume 7 volume uh testimonies for the church volume six great controversy great controversy uh steps to Christ just over and over and over again every one of these chapters ends with them showing the spirit of Prophecy supports what’s being put forth in this because it has to yep because it has to I mean you can see it you can see it right here LG white comment if you go to another section down here L white comments the every chapter hey I had I had to show this real quick I I want to get your

Opinion on how you feel about this this is right after her uh comments how do you feel that they quote your one of your favorite the theologians yeah they do that a lot man they they site sha for example I love sha I’m a big I’m a big fan of them Merc they use individuals that don’t even believe what they believe but they they they try to do that man and I talk about this a lot too they try to do this to add like theological street cred to their theology so like they’ll cite a person like in in every one of the sections they also have a section where they try

To do like an overview of throughout history here’s how it’s been understood by various people so they do that too and then they they end after that with the section that says the Adventist understanding so every historical revisionism right it’s that like throughout history this is the way it’s been understood but now we are here to show you sometimes like see you see there that the source under be they’re citing FF Bruce um who’s obviously known in the textual critical World um and they they’ll sometimes cite them for like okay yeah cool like you’re you’re

Showing that this is like scholastically agreed upon or like something like that okay yeah I get that but they will sometimes cite individuals like they do this with shaf a lot um at Le especially the SDA Pioneers just had a video on this this past week where jayen Andrews is trying to appeal to shock and it’s like yet you’re coming to conclusions that scha directly says you shouldn’t come to based on he was appealing to Constantine and trying to say that Constantine as a heathen laid the framework for Sunday to take on sabatical characteristics and then Pope

Sylvester came along and he’s the one that introduced it formally into the Christian Church um deceptively under the term Lord’s day and it’s like well if then you go and read schaf and his entire chapter on this and he’s like you can’t overplay what Constantine did the church was already he said the the practice of first day worship goes back to the apostles it was around long before Constantine so it’s just like they’ll site them when they they think it’s convenient um but then they won’t in in other instances and you’ll get them trying to make that same argument

Back to you where they’ll try to do stuff like well you site people sometimes and you only site them when they agree with you but it depends why you’re citing the source that that matters that that matters yeah I’m I this is one of the reasons why I mean I I I write a lot on on my blog and I I do that because I want people to have the entire context of why I’m saying what I’m saying and what what what I’m referencing and what is my line of thinking um partly because I find it very complicated to debate with avenus because they’re all over the place so if

You just have here here’s my stance you need to read the article but when I went to the very first um there there’s a conference called the conference it’s the Society of biblical literature conference and I ran into a a scholar that I had become friends with um and I’ll leave her name out it’s not important um but when I was dial she when I met her inside the big Expo area where all the books and all the Publishers and all the you know you know ivp and erman’s and like all the you know all the Publishers in the academic world um she had found a book that she

Was quoting in and she went to it and she was reading it and she said wow it’s great that I was quoted but man he quoted something I don’t even like he used it in a way like that I don’t even believe what it is that he’s saying but he used me in a way that like this is this happens across the board yeah and it’s actually my big fear yeah it’s my big fear putting something out there and then someone’s going to use it in a way that like weaponizes something against my way of understanding and so it is common and it’s but it is something that I think I

Would encourage those watching when you’re reading something if you’re going to honor even what AVST believe if you’re going to honor what it actually is you need to do the work and actually read what it is that your denomination actually teaches don’t take what your pastor says don’t take what your friend says don’t like read it and work it out and flesh it out and try to understand why it is that they have The Stance that they have that’s the reason why my wife and I and my family left the church because when we did the heavy lifting and work we didn’t agree with where they

Landed theologically yeah and to be fair there are some things like you’ll never see me site some of the things I’m fully aware of I’ve been doing this long enough now I know so for example there’s some citations that people will appeal to and say look at Ellen White’s racism yet if you actually go to the source no you you’re actually abusing it so there are times where that even happens yes in that direction um but I have found for example and I’ve brought this Source up before um the last time I brought it up was when we were looking at step bore

Talk about the time of trouble and probation um and I showed how in one issue of ministry magazine SDA Theologian Roy gain tried arguing that Martin Luther early Martin Luther and John Calvin support the Advent understanding of justification that justification and sanctification are intermingled that they’re tied together so intrinsically that you can’t have one without the other well he cited from Calvin’s institutes which I have and have read quite a bit of um coming from the reformed tradition and he literally quotes he pulls a quote from when Calvin

Is steelmanning the position he’s arguing against and then attributes that to John Calvin Calvin’s literally arguing against the position that Roy gain is seeking to defend but he he either unknowingly or who knows he quotes from Calvin’s book three of his institutes where he’s steelmanning the position that he’s about to decimate and disagree with but cites it as though Calvin is agreeing with him see I I want to give someone like that the benefit of the doubt but in Academia this stuff is supposed to be peer reviewed and like this that’s unacceptable that is that not be allowed

By the publisher and I showed it on stream we went through I was like folks it’s going to be a lot of reading but we’re going to work through this here so you can see that this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about and then this is published actually I think it was actually in Ministry magazine I can’t remember it’s either Ministry or review and Herald um either way the the point being is it was published in an official publishing arm of the SDA church was then blasted out to other people who who knows how many people read this and now I see people parir at this my in the

Comments of of my videos all the time I’ve had people whenever I make videos about justification our views the same as Luther and John Calvin no it isn’t no it isn’t not at all your guys’s view is late medieval it’s a late medieval view it’s not it’s the exact thing that the reformers were saying is detracting away from what is patristic but nevertheless um Mike have you you mentioned earlier this has been sitting on my mind because you mentioned when you were reading from the uh I think it was from the handbook uh you mentioned the ceiling message

I’ll have a question for you this could be informative as well for the audience are you aware that there’s actually some Nuance to the ceiling message I it would not surprise me I haven’t studied it in Great depth so fun fact for people you have to be careful when you read in SDA sources especially early SDA sources and you come across ceiling because there is some distinction so let’s go over this a little bit just for uh information’s sake to get people caught up to speed here so this is from an article on our website what is the ceiling message in

Adventism okay the concept or topic of cealing is C is a central aspect of Seventh Day Adventist theology but it’s important to understand there are two contexts in which this can be referring and it’s easy to confuse the two especially as it pertains to SDA history so the first one the cealing message of the 144,000 in 1916 this is the year after Ellen White dies which actually is important in the context of this discussion if you want to get deep in it SDA Pioneer JN labero published a little booklet titled questions on the ceiling message which

Sought to answer questions as it pertains to the ceiling of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation this is after years of confusion over this matter the preceding decades due to Len G white’s visions so he writes in here quote in reference to the subject matter of this book the sealed 144,000 I’ve been greatly moved by the spirit of God to write and publish the facts as to how the seing message was obtained not only from the Bible but what Mike you’re one and only sister but by direct instruction in visions of sister EG white also as to how the message was

Received and taught by our ministers and people down to the year 1894 when the new light Theory found its advocate in one who afterwards apostatized from the faith and died without seeing the Fulfillment of his expectation that he would live to the end of time and hence be one of the 144,000 his claim was that later testimonies of sister white taught that all the 144,000 would be made up of those who had never died when I found that some were teaching that all of the 144,000 who will be sealed are now living I thought it time that someone should speak and

Show that this is not the manner of God’s prophets to make positive statements at one time and afterwards teach entirely contrary to them oh how ironic such surely was not the course of Bible prophets the whole of this new light is produced by taking words out of their connection AKA context and away from the things of which they are spoken and giving them a General application as you will see when we come to the analysis of the matter close quote as lboro notes Ellen White’s Visions played a role in influencing varying understandings of the ceiling message

And led to the charge that certain individuals were misinterpreting and misusing Ellen’s Visions to support their new light on the subject wherein laborough sought to disprove these individuals and their theories but he also notes how the SDA church was reluctant to officially publish on the subject in their Publications so he sought to do it himself not a good idea quote I presented the substance of this tract in two discourses on the Stockon Campground those who heard the discourses requested that it might be published so that they could have the reading of it as the

Subject is one on which there is some controversy I thought our Publishers would not wish to print the matter in their papers or take the responsibility of publishing it in any form close quote he then explains what is uh what the commonly held belief on the subject amongst Adventists was until 1894 so catch that he explains until 1894 there was a certain understanding around the 144,000 and the ceiling message if you read modern SDA scholarship on the 144,000 they’re going to try and tell you stuff like they never firmly said it was going to be anything specific outside of just

A general idea of a group of people that are whoever it is that’s alive at the second coming but Loney quote I will quote from a track published in 1852 a vision given to Sister white ah there it is again at the home of brother Harris at Centerport New York August 24 1850 quote I saw that Satan will work now more powerfully than ever before more powerfully than ever before Satan was working against this concept of the ceiling message of the 144,000 that they were teaching ing prior to 1894 for he knows that his time is short and that the ceiling will soon be

Over soon be over 1852 and he will now work in every in uh insinuation to get the Saints off their guard and get them to sleep upon present truth and doubting it so as to present their being sealed with the Seal of the Living God we read in early writings experience and Views page 49 in the old Edition the cealing time is very short and soon will be over now is the time while the four angels are holding the four wins to make our calling and election sure pause perfect example I cite this quote periodically on here that he’s referring to that’s seen in experience and Views

Where she says the ceiling is almost over time is short Etc I’ve seen people for example cite this and they mean well but they’re wrong they’ll cite this to say look they said that the the mark of the beast in the ceiling of the the law and the the fourth Commandment the Sabbath was taking place back then no that’s not what they’re talking about here they’re talking about a different thing in this context okay so if you see that experience in views page 49 quote Etc where she says time is short I saw that the ceiling time was almost up this is what she is referring to

Okay he continues it was because of the these plain statements that our people and ministers down to 1894 believed and taught that the cealing work had been going on since 1848 and that the 144,000 were being sealed I do not see how we could draw any other idea from the testimonies we have quoted that the ceiling work had begun in 1848 to 1850 close quote that is the further evidence for you folks that this is different than the ceiling of the Sabbath because at this time 1848 and 1850 they’re not even completely firmed up on the Sabbath yet they haven’t even

Had Allen hasn’t even had uh I need to check the dates on this but if I remember correctly she hasn’t even had her her revised vision of when she’s taken to heaven and seen the Arc of the Covenant with the I’m pretty sure that happened in 1852 I could be wrong but um nevertheless the point being is there’s a different ceiling going on here due to the very clear plethora of statements made by Ellen White from Visions Laur recognized that the ceiling work began between 1848 and 1850 and Adventists believed that work had been going on since then until

1894 the claim was being made that the only ones that would be among the sealed 144,000 are those who live until Christ’s actual second coming this led to the question what about those who had died during this ceiling period laor Then speaks to this after referencing a number of Len white quotes he says quote if there is still a doubt of the resurrected Sabbath Keepers being numbered with the 144,000 consider the following from Sister White’s words in 1909 so again he’s jumped ahead here he’s not talking here about 1848 to 1850 like we just were so when he talks about

The sealed Sabbath Keepers here he’s talking about later on past all that at the general conference in 1909 Elder Irwin had a stenographer accompany him in a call upon sister white he wished to ask her some questions and have an exact copy of the words of the question questions and the exact words of the replies among other questions was this one will those who have died in the message be among the 144,000 in reply sister white said oh yes those who have died in the faith will be among the 144,000 I am clear on that matter these were the exact words of

Question and answer as brother Irwin permitted me to copy from his stenographers report even until 1916 there was great confusion over the subject within 7th Day adventism which explains why lbo himself was confused on the subject throughout the book he seems to put forth the idea that the ceiling message came around between 1848 and 1850 with his proof being a vision from Ellen White in 1849 but he failed to reference Ellen White’s first alleged Vision in 1844 which clearly references this but notes something interesting ah so we get the path Vision it always goes back to the

Path Vision December number 1844 I’m not going to read the whole thing here but here it is notice the final paragraph that we have on on the page quote is talking about those who believed the message but then came around and said okay actually nothing actually happened probably in 1844 I’m going to go back to being a Baptist these people are the ones who fell off the path they fell all the way along the path one after another until we heard the voice of God like many Waters which gave us the day and hour of Jesus is coming the living Saints 144,000 in number knew and

Understood the voice while the wicked thought it was Thunder and an earthquake when God spake the time he poured on us the Holy Ghost and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God as Moses has did when he came down from Mount Si in this Vision she claimed to be shown a number of things but two in particular regarding the ceiling message that the 144,000 is an actual number and that they’re the living Saints this same thing was reiterated in an alleged vision from 1847 which is documented in the word of the little clock where she said quote the living

Saints 144,000 in number knew and understood the voice while the wicked thought it was Thunder and an earthquake she’s essentially reiterating the same thing she just said in early writings by this time the 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly United on their foreheads was written God New Jerusalem and a glorious star containing Jesus’s new name then Jesus’s silver trumpet sounded oh like the angel Moroni in Mormonism has that silver trumpet as he descended Ed on the ground wrapped in flames of fire he gazed on the graves of the sleeping Saints then raised his eyes and

Hands to heaven and cried out awake awake awake ye that sleep in the dust and arise Mike if you didn’t know Jesus apparently speaks in Old English the Queens English there was a mighty earthquake the graves opened and the dead came up clothed with immortality the 144,000 shouted Hallelujah as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air ah the 144,000 is alive very clearly Ellen White believed the 144,000 would be alive to witness

These things occur with the sealing process already underway and the sealed 144,000 would be alive to witness the resurrection in the same vision from early writings she claimed that after being shown these things the angel told her that she should go back to Earth and that if she was faithful her along with the 144,000 would have the privilege of visiting all the other worlds that God had created to see his handiwork Mike this is getting back into what I was asking you about earlier about the second and or the special Resurrection this was supposed to be for

This 144,000 that was heralding this most important message ever given to the world at the end of time but as you can see in this quote here folks can go check out all the stuff on folks that’s in red on here on our website is hyperlink click on this it’ll take you you can read to your heart Hearts content but notice she was told supposedly in this Vision after being shown heaven you must go back and if you’re faithful you with the 144,000 shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God she apparently saw Enoch on another world

Who had been translated where she asked him if the world she saw was the Heavenly City to which he said no he was simply traveling to this world to which Ellen begged her angel messenger that she wanted to stay and leads the angel telling her that she had to go back remain faithful and if she did her and the 144,000 would have their privilege of returning again evidencing that the 144,000 was understood to be a literal number who would be living Saints like she said earlier she continued by saying that this ceiling time was soon to be over because it was very short this was

In 1849 mind you so here’s the quote in early writings as well as experience and Views that I was talking about where she says my dear brothers and sisters let the Commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ be in your minds continually Mike already showed you earlier what the testimony of Jesus Christ is and let them crowd out worldly thoughts and cares when you lie down and when you rise up let them be your meditation live and act wholly in reference to the coming of the son of man the ceiling time is very short and will soon be over now is the time while

The four angels are holding the Four Winds to make our calling and election sure close quote which means it was understood that the 144,000 of living Saints would be reached in their lifetime since Christ hadn’t returned yet or hasn’t returned yet this has morphed into very short being redefined as70 plus years later fast forward to 1850 in a letter that Ellen White wrote to an Adventist Mr Hastings that was grieving the loss of his wife where Ellen White writes in part quote I saw ah envision she was sealed and would come up at the voice of God and stand

Upon the Earth and would be with the 144,000 I saw we need not mourn for her she would rest in the time of trouble and all that we could mourn for was our loss of being deprived of her company I saw her death would result in good close quote now we see a transition from the 144,000 being living saints that will witness those coming up from the grave to including some who are um some of those who have been sealed and died Mrs Hastings who was deceased was allegedly a part of the 144,000 in his book JN laber points out how Adventist of the day loved to point

To a citation from the great controversy where Ellen White states that the living saints that make up the 144,000 would be the ones who passed through the time of Jacob’s trouble and have stood without an intercessor quote these are they which came out of the Great Tribulation they’ve passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation they have endured the Ang anguish of time of Jacob’s trouble they’ve stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God’s judgment but they’ve been delivered for they’ve washed their robes and made them

White in the blood of the Lamb close quote this would be cited by Adventists to state that clearly Ellen White taught that all the 144,000 would be alive jumping ahead to 1901 the Adventists were still perplexed as to if they could be one of the 144,000 what Ellen White really believed and taught Etc we read and selected messages book one so sdas were confused on this they were like what’s the truth about the 144,000 and it kept is it people who are all of them are going to be alive because the ceiling is already started oh but now it’s some people are

Going to be part of it who have died but they’re going to be raised to be with the 144,000 so they’re all confused because they’re appealing to Ellen White’s Visions on this so Ellen documents this or it’s pulled in the compilation book of selected messages book one quote Christ says that there will be those in the church who will present fables and supposition itions when God has given Grand elevating en nobling truths which should ever be kept in the Treasure House of the bind when men pick up this Theory and that theory when they are curious to know something

Is not necessary for them to know God is not leading them it’s not his plan that his people shall present something which they have to suppose which is not taught in the word my the irony it’s not his will that they shall get into controversy over questions which will not help them spiritually such as who’s to compose the 144,000 this those who are the elect of God will be in a short time know without question close quote so by this point she’s saying that it isn’t God’s will for people to inquire about these matters such as if they are a part of

The 144,000 as it’s not going to help them spiritually but in a short time those who are the elect of God will know without question but then four years later in a sermon that she gives in 1905 she exhorts Adventist to strive with all power that God has given them to be among the 144,000 or she said quote this is in review and Herald let us strive with all the power that God has given us to be among the 144,000 and let us do all that we can to help others to gain heaven we are to have an intense interest in Christ Jesus for he is our savior he came to this

World to be tempted in all points as we are to prove to the universe that in this world of sin human beings can live lives that God will approve AKA they can keep the law close quote is it any wonder that at that sdas who looked to Ellen White for guidance were confused on the one hand they were being told to not get bogged down in matters of who is and isn’t part of the 144,000 and instead focus on T the tasks at hand while on the other she sang to strive with all power to make sure you were among the 144,000 but remember what laor documented regarding the 1909 General

Conference session where he examined the transcript of the stenographer alen white said oh yes those who have died in the faith will be among the 144,000 I’m clear on this matter which explains why there was such confusion amongst the early Adventists over this matter Ellen White herself was confused then you also have the Sabbath seal which again is obviously very short because we have other articles on this the Sabbath seal the second area of ceiling is a matter entirely distinct from this cealing message referred to by laor and has to do with the Seal of

God’s law being contained within the fourth Commandment of the Ten Commandments given to those in the end times who keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus do not confuse these two cealing events so Mike I’m not sure if you were aware of all of this I don’t know if you were expecting me to go in on all of that but just an FYI for you that you when you read about the ceiling in adventism um it is a mess it is a mess depending on what period of time you’re pulling from it was an Ever revolving door yeah I mean I as you were reading

Through that it’s like at one point it’s like okay so I understand what she’s saying and then all of a sudden it’s entirely different and it’s a different direction and she’s got to like cover what she said before and I really was taken back by your comment in uh in great controver everyone thinks that great controversy is like one of these amazing books it’s probably one of the most heretical books out there that she’s written but the fact that she literally says they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God’s judgment friends

That is heresy that that is the mo one of the most unbiblical statements that you can possibly make I don’t care if you think her books have some wonderful stuff in it and whatever like one bit of heresy would deem a person unfit as a prophet like that statement makes me mad that that is that’s horrible to teach that kind of junk it’s horrible it’s it’s entirely unbiblical and and it’s not me saying that it’s unbiblical I’m I’m glad you’re bringing it up I mean this is you even said this we were watching a video that that you were doing early on uh just earlier today

About this entire you know process in are you in Hebrews yeah Hebrews 7 explicitly contradicts the text the gymnastics the Adventists will go through to defend this is just insane so you’re telling me there’s going to be sin forever because Jesus is no friend that just evidences you don’t understand the intercession of Christ that’s all that shows because the text verbatim says this the text verbatim says this the Salter foretold of this and the entire point that the author is making throughout the whole book of Hebrews but specifically in chapter 7 is how Jesus

Is a better priest than the Levites and and I want to use the the statement that my AVST friends like to say this is the plain reading of the text like this isn’t complicated okay no he says his whole point here is again how Jesus is different how the melchisedek and order is different than the levitical order and how it’s Superior and part of why it’s Superior is because Jesus has an indestructible life the fact that the Levites had to keep doing stuff over and over and over so repetitive sacrifices as well as new priests because one would die and a new one would have to be

Chosen that was evidence that it couldn’t perfect a person it was imperfect that’s why it had to keep happening over and over and over and over again so his whole point about how Jesus is better part of that is because he has an indestructible life but why does why does him having an indestructible life tie into his priesthood the former priest on the one hand existed in greater numbers so there were multiple of them because they were prevented by Death from continuing Jesus on the other hand because he continues forever he he has an indestructible life he’ll live

Forever holds his priesthood how long Mike forever permanently forever that’s the plain reading of the text my friend no gymnastics that’s just what the words say don’t tell me you just believe the Bible yet you’re going to stand by great controversy where the text text explicitly says he’s going to hold his priesthood permanently because it’s tied to his kingship as well malkis DEC at the very beginning of the book avenus don’t pay attention to this for this mzc he actually starts back in chapter nine he says he’s entered behind the veil after the order

Of melchisedek for this melchisedek king of Salem priest of the most high God simultaneous role not he’s he was a priest and then he stopped at a later point and put on kingly garments and then be started the work of a king at that point no no he was a priest king this is another way that Jesus in the melkisedek in order differ from the levitical priests they were not Kings they were only priests they didn’t have a throne to sit on in the the temple they were always standing because they were always dealing with sin the work was never finished Jesus is seated

Because he’s a king and the work is finished nevertheless again continuing with what he said before he quotes from the Salter verse 17 you’re a priest forever forever he holds his priesthood permanently therefore so because he holds it pre permanently and he’s kept from dying because of his indestructible life he’s also able to save forever those who come to God through him since he how long mike always lives forever in perpetuity he never ceases to intercede for us he holds his priesthood permanently he’ll be a priest forever he always lives to make intercession for them the

Adventist Church is wrong friend it’s not the Bible That’s wrong it’s not this should cause an Adventist to go oh wow adventism is wrong but instead they’ll dig their heels in and say okay I have to find a way to make this obscure and not mean what it says so you’re saying sin will exist forever no that just shows you don’t understand what’s going on in this text it just shows you don’t understand the priesthood of Christ it shows you need to go back to Bible basics and you need to re rethink some things they don’t understand the intercession of Christ that’s the

Problem they’re thinking of Christ in the levitical order they’ll tell you they’ll pay lip service to say well Jesus is after the order of melchisedek okay well then you need to understand what that means it means he’s a priest king it means he’s going to be a priest king forever however long he’s going to be a priest and however long he lives or however long he’s going to be a king and however long he lives that’s how long he’s going to also be a priest he’s never going to cease doing that because this is tied to the Incarnation he’s not a levite but they

That that shows that again all their defenses to Ellen White being shown in Vision that he’s wearing levitical priesthood garments and he’s up in heaven well no no no that was just Roy gain says no no that was just a picture to show us that he’s functioning as a priest he’s not literally wearing levitical priesthood garments we know he’s after the order of melchisedec okay well then Adventists need to understand he’s never going to stop being a priest then because that’s consistent with the mchis edian order you’re thinking they’re thinking about

Him like a levitical priest so the the the big quote that we started out with um with regards to John Pauline um and a different gospel I would I would posit that the Adventist gospel has a version where the priest is Jesus let’s forget about the levite and M let’s just leave that out for a second whatever you okay I’ll just give that to you okay but this priest ceases to mediate at some point like this is the version of the ainst gospel and I this isn’t me saying it like I don’t think this is and you could probably you might know this off the top of your head miles but this is

Not the only statement that she made you know in great controversy where she says that they stood without an intercessor this is not the only place this is not like some obscure thing this is a part of the teaching of the Gospel of the Adventist Church that you will have to stand before an almighty god without an intercessor while he’s changed his clothes I don’t know how that works as an almighty God like all it’s just representative of a change of function it’s not a representative of him literally changing garments that’s the argument oh well because she says they

Have stood without an intercessor so I don’t know how I don’t like here’s what’s funny to me miles like Ellen White’s writings are written in English you don’t have to translate it like yeah and not oh it’s a confusion third grade educated English yeah I mean there’s nothing else that it can mean it’s not like oh forgot she was writing in like Portuguese and I mistranslated it in some way no she says they speaking of the 144,000 here okay they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God’s judgment they they stood without an

Intercessor so friend if you’re an ainst and you’re watching the Adventist gospel that John paulan correctly States is a different gospel has Jesus functioning as an intercessor and then gives up that function where you have to stand before an almighty god without his righteousness yeah I would freak out if I was an avenus right now yeah and for those that do not know this the reason that this is such a big sticking point is because of and it all goes back to the Crux of the great controversy Paradigm which is that God is on trial his law is in question and he’s

Vindicating such from the accusations of Satan and that’s part of how that happens so let’s go over this a little bit Mike because I think people in the audience would find this um fascinating I don’t think we’re going to get any AD which I didn’t while pulling that up while you’re pulling that up it always irritates me that people that us mere humans think that God’s the one on trial yeah ridiculous so all right she titles this in I’m gonna go Christ in his Sanctuary because that’s where it conveniently gets piled together but she titles this in Christ in his sanctuary as the

Courtroom scene so if you read this chapter I believe it’s chapter nine we’re going to see here in a moment when I get it brought up

It is starting on page 178 gosh the interface on here there we go all right so let’s read through some of this here let me actually turn dark reader on as well okay all right so here’s the courtroom scene okay this is after the close of the investigative judgment pH folks this is when so Christ is going to cease being a mediator once the investigative judgment closes that’s the claim okay then this courtroom scene is going to happen this is what’s going to be taking place in heaven while the time of trouble is going on on the earth okay notice what

She says here we’re going to read a bit of this the deepest interest manifested among men in the decisions of Earthly tribunals but faintly represents the interest EV uh evinced in the Heavenly courts when the names entered in the books of Life come up in review before the judge of all the Earth the Divine intercessor presents The Plea that all who have overcome through faith in his blood so one thing to note here folks they distinguish between intercessor and mediator okay the Divine intercessor presents The Plea of all who have overcome through

Faith in his blood be forgiven their transgressions so who’s that Mike well who do you think it is that’s the people that made it through the investigative judgment okay this madeup construct by the way so after the people who made it through the judgment and didn’t have their names blotted out of the book Jesus Will present their case Before He’ll be advocating for those individuals okay miles before you go on this is the reason why why when I was in adventism I never really could have the assurance that I was saved because of the investigator because like I didn’t

Know if I was going to like if I had done enough or if I had whatever it like this whole investigative judgment concept is such a I’m G to say it’s a cultic hook to keep people tied into adventism because it is SC like if you really buy into this concept it is scary to think outside of it like except for duded except for the diluted people who think that they’re sinless perfect and they’re so holy they glow in the dark and they’re they’re going to pass with flying colors that crowd but she continues the Divine intercessor presents The Plea that all who have

Overcome through faith in his blood be forgiven their transgressions that they be restored to their Eden home and crowned as joint heirs with himself to the first Dominion Micah 48 Satan in his efforts to deceive and tempt our race had thought to frustrate the divine plan in man’s creation but Christ now asks that this plan be carried into effect as if man had never fallen so Satan’s going to be making a case Jesus is going to be making a case he asks for his people not only pardon and justification full and complete but a share in his glory and a

Seat upon his throne there’s their final eschatological second tier of justification coming through as well while Jesus is pleading for the subjects of his grace Satan accuses them before God as transgressors The Great Deceiver has sought to lead them into skep skepticism to cause them to lose confidence in God to separate themselves from his love and to break his law now he points to the record of their lives to the defects of character the unlike uh the unlikeness of Christ which has Dishonored their redeemer to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit and because of

These he claims them as his subjects Jesus does not excuse their sins but shows their penitence in faith and claiming for them forgiveness he lifts his wounded hands before the father and the Holy Angel say saying I know them by name I’ve Graven them on the palms of my hand the sacrifices of God are a broken Spirit a broken and contrite heart oh God thou wil not despise Psalm 51:17 it’s just so funny how they’re like look she cites the Bible so she because she just randomly cites proof text periodically that’s just supposed to demonstrate that this

Is you know biblically supported or anything and to the accuser of his people he declares the Lord rebuke thee Oh Satan even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee is not this a brand plucked out of the fire Zechariah 3:2 Christ will clothe his faithful ones with his own righteousness that he may present them to his father a glorious church not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing Ephesians 5:27 their names stand enrolled in The Book of Life and concerning them it is written they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy Revelation 3:4 thus will be

Realized the complete fulfillment of the New Covenant promise catch this I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more that’s only a reality at the point of this going on it’s not a reality right now in those days and in that time sayeth the Lord the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for and there shall be none and the sins of Jo of Judah and they shall not be found Jeremiah 31:34 and 5020 in that day shall the branch of the Lord be benefit beautiful and glorious and the fruit of the Earth shall be excellent and and comely for

Them that have es uh that are escaped of Israel and it shall come to pass that he that is left in Zion and he that remaineth in Jerusalem Shall be Called holy even everyone that is written among the living in Jerusalem Isaiah 42-3 man look at Mike look at all that biblical support you just sprinkle in a bunch of look at all that hgm going on look at it yeah I know you just sprink in a bunch of verses and it just all supports whatever it is that you’re saying the work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second Advent of

The Lord since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the Judgment at which their cases are to be investigated but the Apostle Peter distinctly states that the sins of Believers will be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord and He Shall send Jesus Christ acts 3:19 and 20 yeah so when Peter was preaching about on Pentecost he was talking about folks believe the gospel you and your family the promises for you you who crucified

Christ you Jews you can be forgiven this Jesus you crucified he’s your Messiah you can have your sins blotted out in 18800 and some odd years into the future when Christ begins at this process in a temple in a building in heaven um where your sins will then be blotted out at that point yeah did she did she just contradict herself in that same sentence go back up for a second she’s an idiot she had no clue what she was talking about a total ignoramus did she just say that it is impossible that the sins of men the work of the investigative judgment the blonding out of sins is to

Be accomplished before the second Advent since the dead are to be judged it is impo yeah that she’s claiming the time their their position is and this is the SDA Bible commentary by the way too they they site on acts 319 to20 they site this no she’s not contradicting herself she’s claiming that the times of refreshing is going to come after the investigative judgment that’s what I’m saying so apparently Peter was telling the hearers there at Pentecost yeah like a couple thousand years later that your sins will be blotted out will yeah so believe the gospel because your sins

Will be blotted out in 2,000 years after you pass this investigative judgment that’s what we’re supposed to because because Christ’s work is finished and it’s finished not yet it’s finished in 1800 years or 2,000 years when the investigative judgment closes Christ will come and his reward will be with him and to give to every man as his work shall be now here we go in the typical service the high priest having made the atonement for Israel came forth and bless the congregation so Christ at the close of his work as mediator will appear without sin unto

Salvation Hebrews 9:28 totally butchering of that text I’ve gone through that chapter I don’t know how many times on this platform to bless is waiting people with eternal life as the priest and removing the sins from the sanctuary confess them upon the head of the scapegoat so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan the originator and instigator of sin the scapegoat bearing the sins of Israel was sent away unto a land uninhabited Leviticus 16:22 so Satan bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit will be for a thousand years

Confined to the Earth which will then be desolate without inhabitant and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked thus the great Plan of Redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the Deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil so my point in bringing this up was to say she was saying that the ceasing without a mediator she says it multiple times this is I could show you another place where she says the same thing and it’s ultimately because part of of the requirement of

Vindicating God is silencing Satan’s accusation well what is Satan’s accusation supposedly that the law is unfair it’s it’s mutable it needs changed it can’t be kept Etc and Jesus came as the great example not just to humans by the way Mike also to Angels which is a whole thing I’m gonna be doing a big thing on some research I’ve been doing for about six months now on Michael the Archangel that is going to blow the lid off my mind has been blown on this it’s way worse than I thought it was um thank shout out to one of our members who sent me on a a rabbit hunt

Down that that rabbit hole because hold these smokes but nevertheless Jesus came as the great example to show you that the law can be kept she says elsewhere in Desire of Ages that the scars that he bears are are evidence to us that the law can be kept that it can’t be changed and that he’ll forever bear these scars for us to always know look the law can’t be changed and to always remember that look what the law required required Christ dying and all these sorts of things that she says yeah Chop Chop get to it you better start keeping that law I wonder how I want to ask the AVST how

Well are you doing on that but the ceasing of the mediator has to do with people who have gotten to this condition where they’re vindicating La God’s law and demonstrating to the world that which is supposed to be the Adventist it’s not just supposed to be a select handful it’s supposed to be that they have this antidote that can really give you this you know you can come to Christ and receive this superpower and now you can really begin keeping the law if you really really believe and then you’ll get to this point eventually through cooperation alongside Jesus

Where you’ll no longer need his imparted merits to you because that has then weaved this robe of righteousness that you’re clothed in it’s not your own merits it’s only you working alongside Jesus who’s giving you his merits to weave together this robe of righteousness that you can then stand without an intercessor because Jesus Satan’s accusations would would be able to stand against you if you didn’t if you had any sin left in your life so once he ceased being a mediator which they understand to be a process of him only dealing with sin basically well

He’s not going to be dealing with that anymore so he’ll cease doing that and he’ll be advocating for the people that made it through the investigative judgment which were the people who kept the law perfectly so Satan’s accusation won’t be able to stand against them because he’ll be able to see well no look I’m not excusing their sin but it was dealt with they were penitent and they eventually get to a point where they’re vindicating the law so Satan’s accusation will be silenced he won’t be able to um even though he’s going to try to accuse them down on the earth um they

It won’t be it won’t happen that’s also part of why in the system she claimed in great controversy that during the time of trouble you’re going to have to get to a point like Jesus was she says this is the condition you must be in and she uses the example of Jesus being tempted in the wilderness the Wilderness is supposed to be a picture of the time of trouble and that when Satan was tempting Jesus out in the wilderness he couldn’t find find any foothold in Christ to make him to make him fall and she says this is the condition you must be found in

During the time of trouble because if not Satan’s gonna find something in you that’s going to be able to trip you up and that’s what she’s referring to is this heavenly courtroom scene when the time of trouble’s going on he’s gonna be accusing and if there’s any sin found in you you’re not going to make it Jesus is only going to be able to advocate for people who got to a totally sinless condition and that’s the plain reading of the word of God clearly yeah just just obviously you know Micah is talking about this I don’t know how you could read the Bible any different by the way

I’m being sarcastic for my friends that are watching I don’t respect trying theology I was trying to keep up with all of the the Bible texts that she was quoting and I was I this this is the problem with like Adventist theology because it TR is like Hopscotch jumping around it really is and it’s funny that someone like Ted Wilson would say the only approved method is the hgm the that’s the only approved but yet your own propheus doesn’t even use that method in fact she doesn’t even understand it no not even close and see they’ll use the excuse there like which

I get it they’ll say well she’s not citing there as like commentary she’s like just showing biblical well it’s like okay if she’s not using it as commentary I understand that I understand that you have the LG white SDA Bible commentary which some of those were though where she’s citing from acts 31 19-20 that’s what the SDA Bible commentary on that verse because I’ve shown it on this platform numerous times that is what she’s claiming that text is saying so in that instance she was citing it as commentary I understand in other places she’ll periodically just

Cite Bible texts because it’s it’s like the language that’s used she’s just trying to use biblical language I get that but all it does is just shows how all over the board this is citing the Bible like that treating it like this Divine fortune cookie where it’s just like you just pull stuff out just from all over the place and oh man it just makes it look so biblical oh man just it’s just dripping in biblical text yeah it’s just dripping in in just Butchery of the Bible none of the texts that she cited have anything to do with what’s being said

Here none none of it I mean I even went to the first one Micah 48 I’m like what in the world does that even have to do with what she was trying to say yeah it doesn’t so the deepest interest manifested among men in the decisions of Earthly tribunals but faintly represents the interest evinced in the Heavenly courts when the names entered in the Book of Life come up in review before the judge of all the Earth the Divine intercessor presents The Plea that all who have overcome through faith and the blood uh be forgiven and their transg uh the Divine intercessor presents The Plea

That all who have overcome through faith in his blood be forgiven their transgression that they be restored to their Eden home and crowned as joint HS with himself to quote the first Dominion Micah 48 that’s a let me read let me read Micah 48 let me let me read it okay and you oh Tower of the flock Hill of the daughter of Zion to you shall it come and here you go the former Dominion shall come kingship for the daughter of Jerusalem What in the world does that have anything to do with what she is trying to say it doesn’t she because it has the word yeah exactly exactly exactly which

Is exactly what will this this is William Miller exes I shouldn’t call it ex this is William Miller heresy interpretation yeah where you Bible interpretation I know it’s just crazy that’s what I’m saying it’s just like word concept fallacy it just and that’s and like I’ve heard Jud Lake and whatnot when I was a student of his I would talk with him about this just crazy the excuses they’ll come up with man I just remembered so I asked him for example I’m like dude come on be honest she says that drinking tea is a sin she says that outright she says drinking tea is a sin

There’s tea on this campus they sell tea in the Village Market they sell tea in the vending machines on campus how is that not a contradiction you want to know what the excuse was what because you can’t go with the out of context that excuse isn’t going to work on this one because it’s just so patently obvious what being said she said it was a different kind of tea that’s the excuse that’s the excuse tea back you have to understand teab back that it’s just so pathetic so you’re telling me relish and mustard and black pepper back there the on the campus was

Was was blessed in the blood of Jesus that’s what it was it’s just so pathetic man it’s like it’s hard to take seriously because it’s just so obvious it’s so obvious just give it up just give it up well anyways brother like I said I didn’t I didn’t anticipate tonight on tonight’s subject that we would get very few bites um which that’s fine I think we had some good conversation here I just do want to remind people just one last thing here because like I said this is going up this week hit that notification Bell so you can be notified when this goes live this

Was a uh a phenomenal interview and it’s not like the rest of interviews that I do on this platform these are more documentary like um they’re a lot of work they take a lot of time to to do and put together and get together and do the recording and editing and all of that sort of stuff so definitely definitely definitely tune in for this because Mike has an incredible story and it just so happened to fall that this is going to go up the same time that you were here brother thank you so much for being here it’s an honor um I’m I’m grateful to be able to participate I’m grateful

That others will hear my testimony uh and by the way I’ll just say this has nothing to do with me or my wife or my family this is all all about him um yep I I owe everything to him so I hope that my testimony honors him and I hope that you’re blessed by it yeah and you haven’t even seen the uh end product so it’s been a minute since been a minute since we conducted uh so Mike probably doesn’t even remember much of uh the specifics of it but I do so definitely tune in folks and uh May Christ richly bless you in the grace and peace won by him and his vicarious death on the cross

For Sinners until next time God bless sh