Satanic Majesty?! Examining Adventism’s Fixation With Satan!

Hey there. As always, a warm welcome from wherever and whenever you might be tuning in from, especially if this is your first time with us, Adventist or otherwise. So, if there’s one thing the SDA church is obsessed with, it is Satan. Whether it be his satanic majesty or his thoughts, him holding a secret council meeting in outer space to figure out how to attack Seventh Day Adventus and the Sabbath, or his supposed false repentance prior to his banishment from heaven. I never heard more about Satan than when I was an Adventist. Which is why I wanted to invite my friend Dr.

Josh Howard to join us and discuss the subject of Satan. Particularly though with regards to what the scriptures have to say about his fall and defeat in light of the SDA church’s very elaborate extra-blar. Josh Howard serves as an elder and pastor at Grace Community Church in Battle Creek, Michigan. He’s an alumni of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Mid America Baptist Theological Seminary, and Northern Arizona University with his doctoral dissertation on the subject of Satan’s defeat. He’s published several books and articles, including stories

About the end of things, served as an adjunct professor, and is the general editor with Esquetology Matters. So, does the Bible teach that Satan was ever next in honor to Jesus Christ? That he became jealous of Jesus being exalted, leading to a great controversy? When and where was Satan defeated and what does that look like? All of this and more coming up next. But quickly, I want to remind you that if you like what we’re doing here, you can support us by joining our membersonly section by clicking that little join button down below this video or by visiting our

Channel homepage where you’ll find the same one. For about a coffee a month, you can join our growing crew, engage in our workshop style live streams, and access our whole library of membersonly content. It’s your support that enables us to fulfill our mission to equip as many Christians as possible to reach as many SDAs as possible with the true Christ and his gospel. All right. Well, Josh, thank you for being here. We’re in the reversed roles now, so I’m looking forward to hearing you talk more than me this last time. Uh, how are you doing today? I’m

Doing well, man. It’s great to be back with you and yeah, appreciate the content you’ve had coming out. Yeah, thank you. Uh, you’re actually located, so a lot of people in our audience will know exactly where this is, but you’re actually located in Battle Creek, which is an epicenter of Adventism. Do you have many interactions with Adventists at all? Uh, not exactly. Um, you know, we we we know a few a few folks around town, but you can definitely see there there’s a lot of SDA churches in the area. There’s the old u uh historical center downtown where they’ve got the

What is it, the bunk houses or whatever. They used to have a you know center center down there that they’ve uh since abandoned and and turned into a historical site. But um we have noticed a lot of a lot of Seventh Day churches that aren’t Adventists. So a lot of Seventh Day Baptist, Seventh Day Pentecostal, a lot of lot of those that were unfamiliar to us. But well, that’d be a conversation for another day, but it’d be fun to discuss kind of their thoughts around other uh Seventh Day Sabotarians. Um absolutely. But yeah, another another uh discussion for

Another day. We’re going to talk about a subject that’s rather expansive when it comes to well really just Christian theology in general, but uh especially SDA theology. This is to say the foundation for the SDA church’s worldview comes from an extra biblical pre-earth origin story called the great controversy. The fuller name being the great controversy between Christ and his angels and Satan and his angels. This paradigm is supposed to give answers that scripture is not exhaustive on. So when you told me that a theological area of expertise for you was the defeat of

Satan, I thought you would be the perfect guest to have on to discuss some of the great controversy worldview in light of scripture and see if we can maybe pinpoint some of the specifics around where things go beyond scripture in this system. Sound good? That sounds that sounds great. Yeah, absolutely. Perfect. So let’s start here. This is what the SDA church teaches regarding the fall of Satan. So in Ellen White’s The Spirit of Prophecy Volume 1, she starts by saying, “Satan in heaven before his rebellion was a high and exalted angel next in honor to God’s

Dear son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect, his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than any of the other angels. Yet Jesus, God’s dear son, had the preeminence over all of the angelic host. He was one with the father before the angels were created. Satan was envious of Christ and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone.

So she claims that before his fall, Satan was next in honor to Christ, but was envious of him and gradually began to assume command that devolved onto Christ alone. We will look at this development of authority in a moment. But Josh, does the Bible teach anywhere or allude to the idea that before his fall, Satan was next in honor to Jesus? So yeah, the easy answer is no. um an emphatic no. But um one of the things that that uh well it might help just to explain how I got into to studying Satan because that’s kind of a weird uh a weird thing to be studying. But

Initially I was looking at kind of that Chris victor theme of scripture, Christ as victor, Christ as the victorious conquering one. And so that was kind of the theme I was looking at through scripture. And when you do that you inevitably have to deal with, you know, what is Christ victorious over? Um, so he’s over, you know, he’s victorious over sin and death and hell, um, over all the forces of evil, but he’s also victorious over Satan, um, as a character in that biblical story. So, Satan comes into the picture, but he only comes in tangentially, I would say.

Um, so one of the one of the things about studying uh, anything that scripture has to say about Satan. Um, and I limited most of my study to what scripture had to say as opposed to say extra biblical material. Um, there there’s lots to be found as you’ve just read um, from other sources. But when you looked at what scripture actually confesses about Satan, there’s not a lot. And that’s one of the things that I think gives people a lot of room for speculation and um a little bit of of imagination when it comes to those type of things because typically Satan is

Just sort of referred to in passing. So um I’m sure we’ll get into some of the passages that speak about that, but as far as who Satan is and if if there’s any credence to what you just read from from Ellen White, um none of that is found in scripture. What what we do know for sure about Satan is that he is a created being. Um he is a created being who is lesser than the creator. He’s he’s there’s the creator creature distinction that’s that’s very clear throughout scripture. Christ is above all all created powers including the angelic beings. You find that especially

In like Colossians 1 or Ephesians 1. A lot of the stuff that you were covering at the beginning I I find just not supported by scripture. So, you know, you’re referring to his countenance or or his forehead, which I’m sure there’s there’s much for you to say and and to uh to explain with those comments. Um, but that stuff’s just simply not within the biblical narrative. Um, what is clear within the biblical narrative is that Satan is he’s evil. He’s real. Um, he’s a defeated enemy and he’s also a created being. And I think that really strikes at the heart of what you were

Getting at there from that quotation is that he is not in any way to be compared to Christ. And it’s one of the strange things when you look to a lot of I would say offshoots, but any offshoots of Christianity, including things that are clearly cultish or heretical with any one of those given movements, um you often times see a whole lot of a whole lot of explanation about Satan that is just simply extra biblical um sources. It’s stuff that scripture does not support and often things that scripture contradicts. Yeah. The idea of um so they’re obviously going to say that

Satan was never above Christ. Um, and they’re going to also try and say Christ is the creator of Satan, but uh, think of it like Satan being the highest of all the created beings. He was the closest that you could come as a created being to God himself. But then the whole narrative is kind of positioned as this sort of back and forth sort of like dualistic type thinking where good and evil are waring back and forth and you as a as a human being are caught in this great controversy between Christ and his angels and Satan and his angels as if there’s really any sort of uh shared

Ground in that sort of capacity. But then she continues and explains this further where she says, “The great creator assembled the heavenly host that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his son. The son was seated on the throne with the father and the heavenly throne of holy angels was gathered around them. The father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ his son should be equal with himself, so that wherever was the presence of his son, it was as his own presence. The word of the son was to be obeyed as readily as the

Word of the father. His son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The father’s will would be fulfilled in him. So God the father called the heavenly host together to let them know that he had ordained that Christ should be equal with himself such that when Christ gives a command it was to be seen as though

The father was giving that command. He was invested with this authority from the father to be the head of the angels in heaven and would also be involved in the creation of the earth with the father. This was the next paragraph after the previous quote that we read. So Josh, was Jesus exalted to be made equal with the father at some point prior to the creation of the earth? Yeah. So what I fear that a lot of my answers are going to be just like really boring to your audience because again the easy answer is just no. So, um, if we were to look at if we were to look at

Orthodox Christianity, um, Caledonian Christianity, uh, when when you’re looking at the persons of the Godhead, um, you have to obviously we want to be really careful with our language, but you have to confess father, son, and spirit, co-equal, co-eternal, co-en co-in power. Um, often times we we’ll use very specific language um, to even differentiate the the persons of the trinity just to avoid any sort of any sort of semblance of one being over or against the other. Um, and that plays into a lot of what we’re talking about here. The the only the only times you

Get uh a reference in scripture about Christ being made higher is specifically in regards to his his economic work. So Christ taking on flesh um the whole mystery and and miracle of the incarnation and Christ walking among us on this earth. Um there was a sense in which in his humanity he experienced things but that’s never at the sacrifice of his deity. So when even when we talk about him being uh above earthly powers, a lot of this language has to do with what he accomplished in creation, it’s not referring to what he has accomplished as God or as creator. The

The the the things that you were just reading and referring to. Obviously, that’s not in scripture anywhere. We don’t we don’t find anywhere that talks about some sort of pre-biblical, I guess we could say, event um where Christ is made higher than the other created beings. What we can and must confess, though, is that all things were made through him and for him. um he is before and above all things. That’s precisely because uh Christ to speak of Christ uh prior to the creation or prior to the fall even um is to speak of Christ as God um as as co-eternal co-ine with the

Father and the son inseparable and yet distinct persons of the godhead. So again the easy answer on this one is just a simple no. Um and it would it would run counter to Christian orthodoxy. Caledonian Christianity is what I referenced earlier but the creeds and confessions have always confessed to this sort of thing as well. Yeah, this is why I’m always pressing on this particular issue and I was curious to hear your thoughts on this and people on our platform tend to probably get tired of hearing me harp on this, but uh it it really showcases a fountain head element

Here as you’re going to see as we move further along in this narrative that really all of Seventh Day Adventist uh theology centers around this whole concept. This is kind of the first domino, if you will, when the worldview is titled the great controversy theme or the great controversy worldview. Well, what started this controversy? That has to be a fountain head statement. Well, it’s this action of the father exalting the son in some pre-earth origin story. That is technically the first domino that leads to what she says now in response to this. Satan was envious and jealous of

Jesus Christ. Yet when all the angels vowed to Jesus to acknowledge his supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, Satan bowed with them. But his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into the special counsel of God in regard to his plans. While Satan was unacquainted with them, he did not understand, neither was he permitted to know the purposes of God. But Christ was acknowledged sovereign of heaven. His power and authority to be the same as that of God himself. Satan thought that he was himself a favorite in heaven among the

Angels. He had been highly exalted. But this did not call forth from him gratitude and praise to his creator. He aspired to the height of God himself. He gloried in his loftiness. He knew that he was honored by the angels. He had a special mission to execute. He had been near the great creator and the ceaseless beams of glorious light in shrouding the eternal God had shone especially upon him. Satan thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable elacrity. Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should Christ thus be honored before him? So Christ the son

Being made equal with the father and given authority over all the angels in heaven leads to Lucifer becoming jealous of Christ. And that’s the first domino in this great controversy between Christ and Satan. And it ultimately leads to Satan falling from heaven. She says that this led him to wonder why wasn’t he honored in the same way? Wasn’t he beautiful? After all, he’d been close to God’s throne um and the ceaseless beams of light shining especially upon him. But according to scripture, why did Satan fall from heaven? Yeah. So, one of the one of the one of the tricky bits

With this is is what we’re looking at in scripture when we talk about Satan and and from that we work through what passages are referring to Satan. Um, and this is a matter of no small debate. Whenever you talk about Satan within scripture, um, part of the debate is just settling on which passages are actually referring to Satan, uh, specifically as a as a as an entity, as a being, as a spiritually created, um, thing. There’s there’s several passages. Um, I would point people to three in general. There’s there’s three Old Testament passages that really start to

Set set the stage um, for who Satan is and where he where he comes into being. The New Testament speaks much more about Satan, much u maybe more freely. Um but the three places in the Old Testament I would certainly point people to would be um Genesis chapter 3. Uh that would be one of those foundational stories. Um it’s set up as the serpent in the garden. Um this is during the fall narrative. Um, but we know from later passages and specifically from the the uh continued um the continued revelation in the New Testament, we know from like Revelation 12:9 very clearly alludes to

The serpent in the garden as Satan as the um as the the same character. So, we know that Genesis 3 is pointing to Satan, but beyond that, it gets a lot a lot more difficult. Um, Zechariah 3 refers to Satan walking in and accusing the brethren before the throne of God. uh Job 1 and two refers to Satan, you know, strolling into the presence of God and uh God, you know, speaking to him and that that the whole setup to the the Job saga, but it gets a lot more difficult beyond that. Um there’s a couple of passages that when I was doing my research on this, I referred to them

As as unclear passages. Um it doesn’t mean they don’t refer to Satan, but it does mean that that it’s a lot less clear and there’s a lot more debate over the words that are used. Um, and the three that most people would probably point to when they’re thinking through that question that you asked, which is where what’s the origin story of Satan? Where did he come from? How did he fall? Um, how did this whole thing begin? The unclear passages would be Isaiah 14, uh, specifically 14:12, and maybe you could even look to Isaiah 27:1. Uh, there’s a reference in 1 Chronicles 21. Uh, so

That’ be 1 Chronicles 21 really there in verse 1. And then there’s one in Ezekiel 28:14. That’s typically where people will draw from when they’re trying to think through why it was that Satan fell. If you think back to those three passages I referred to a minute ago, none of those give any sort of indication of any sort of pre-lapserian or pre-mundane fall of Satan, whether it was before the fall of man or whether it was before the creation uh account, whatever that looks like. Uh we’re simply not told from those accounts. You look to Genesis chapter 3 and you’re

Told um there is a serpent that slithers into the garden. He tempts Eve and then subsequently Eve and Adam both eat of the fruit. Adam uh because Adam ate of the fruit, mankind fell with him. And then we have the whole fall account. Um following that fall account, you have obviously the protege in Genesis 3:15 where we’re told that God pronounces judgment upon the serpent. Um he commands that he will crawl in the dust and he will eat the dirt and that he will be on his belly the rest of his days. Even that passage in Genesis chapter 3, there’s a lot of questions

There. Um you could get into is this is this Satan personified? Is he crawling as a serpent? um does he somehow go into the form of a serpent or or we could say take over a serpent? That was that was the view of some of the reformers. I think Calvin and Luther both held to that view that it was a serpent that Satan kind of used uh for his own purposes. But in any case, all you have is Satan enters the scene, he tempts um and he brings destruction and he is judged because of it. There’s no there’s no telling of how he came onto the scene. Um there’s a little bit of

Reference to the fact that he is crafty and there’s a little bit of word play there that’s really interesting. By the way, when we’re told that Satan was crafty, there’s a word play between the craftiness of the serpent and the nakedness of Adam and Eve. Um the word play there is very similar. And you get the same word play during the cursing narrative. Um it’s part of that ironic judgment of God. But all you have is Satan come onto the scene. We’re told he’s crafty. We’re told he’s a created being because again, serpent being a created being. Then we’re told he’s

Judged because of that. When you go to the other two accounts, there’s even less kind of background information that’s given. Uh Job 1 and two, many people are familiar with those passages. We’re just told Satan was wandering upon the earth. So, we know he has access to the created order. We know that he’s, you know, walking about on the earth in whatever regards we can we can take that, but there’s no there’s no indication given as to how he came about or what the fall looked like. And I would say the same thing for Zechariah chapter 3. We find him in this

Accusatory position. He’s accusing uh the saints before the throne of God. Um some have pointed to that. Um, I think it was Ryan Stokes that’s written quite a bit on that that passage and talked about the the prosecutotorial role of Satan versus his acting as a judge or even as a executioner of God. But however you take that passage, there there’s no indication given as to how we get there. So looking again to those those unclear passages or we could say less clear passages at least, uh, Isaiah chapter 14 would be one of those that people will look to and say that this

Gives some sort of indication as to how Satan felt. So Isaiah chapter 14 is where we get the actual phrase Lucifer. So the ph the term or title Lucifer many many use it as a proper name of Satan. Uh but it’s really just the Latin Vulgate uh its translation of this phrase in Isaiah chapter 14 which is day star. So if if we read that passage, it’s clearly referring to a figure there in Isaiah’s day. So there’s a human reference, but it’s possible that it could be referring to something beyond just that human reference. Um there’s this dynamic that sometimes occurs

Within the prophetic literature where you have a prophetic perspective. Um there’s a near fulfillment and a future fulfillment and something like that could be going on here because if you read the if you read the account there in Isaiah chapter 14, it seems to be pointing maybe beyond some some human individual. But there’s a lot in that passage that’s that’s simply nonliteral or not meant to be literal. There’s references to shale. We find that sort of sort of reference all throughout the Old Testament in nonliteral ways. Um at least at least in some of the accounts.

So Isaiah 14 could be referring to something something along those lines. Um but it’s simply not clear. But Isaiah 14 would be one thing that people would look to and say this seems to be indicating that Satan fell in some regard. And it may even indicate some sort of jealousy or some sort of some sort of conflict with the other those that were in heaven, whether it be angelic beings or even with Christ himself. Um that Satan would have some sort of jealousy. But Isaiah 14, it’s certainly not clear in that regard. Ezekiel 28 is much the same. Ezekiel 28

Uses some pretty strong language. It’s obviously referring to a king of Ty. There’s a human reference that that Ezekiel 28 is pointing to. And the whole the whole passage there in Ezekiel 28, the four words that are used there in the latter part of of verse 14 or the the beginning part of verse 14 are pretty problematic. But it’s got these sort of these sort of descriptions there in Ezekiel 28. We’re told that the king is to be the signate of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. That’s in 2812. Uh we’re told that he had had been in Eden in the garden of God.

That’s 2813. He’s described as an anointed guardian cherub on the holy mountain of God. That’s 28:14. But yet he was one that was quote proud because of your beauty unquote who was subsequently cast to the ground. So some people read through that reference in Ezekiel 28 and say yes, it’s referring to a human reference there. There there’s a king. He he’s an actual man. This this is referring to something then in Ezekiel’s day, but this could be speaking sort of broadly about this satanic fall. So, it’s speaking about a human reference, but it also kind of has

In mind Satan. And and they’ll go to that because of the language used. They’ll say, “Look, this is clearly referring to Eden. This is clearly referring to some sort of fall. It’s pointing outside of just this guy. He didn’t walk in Eden. Therefore, it must be referring to Satan as well.” If you were to just work through how to apply that passage, though, the best you could say is it’s a veiled reference. This isn’t some sort of walkthrough of satanic origins. Ezekiel doesn’t set out to give us a satanic origin story. What he does do is communicates God’s

Judgment upon a human reference. And there’s a clear spiritual element involved in that. So we could definitely say that whatever human element is in rebellion against God, in that way, he is embodying the same rebellion, the same sinfulness, the same evil as the ultimate evil, as we could say a satanic figure or as Satan himself. But it certainly isn’t giving us some sort of detailed origin story. But Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14 would be two of the primary places people would go to, especially Ezekiel 28 and say because of the pride reference and because of the beauty

Reference, there’s some sort of some sort of prideful element involved there. The other sort of disputed passage would be 1st Chronicles 21:1. And there we’re told Satan stands against Israel. And I’m not going to get too into depth on this one, but I would say this one’s less clear than the first two. So Isaiah and Ezekiel um both could have some sort of veiled or prophetic reference to Satan. uh 1st Chronicles 21 is a little bit tougher. Um again, because Satan is not the the the focus of the passage. So in 1 Chronicles 21, we have this uh executioner who comes against God’s

People. Um it’s it seems to be referring to a heavenly being. But even that reference of Satan, to a heavenly heavenly creature, it has no definite article that’s used with it. It’s just the Satan. There’s no there’s no Satan, which is the the Hebrew definite article attached to the beginning. And what makes the passage so difficult is it’s focusing on again the rebellion of people and God’s judgment against them. So the focus of the passage is simply not Satan, this angelic being. If it indeed is is referring to Satan, he’s simply referred to in passing. So with

With all that kind of summarized, then we’re not given a whole lot of information on any sort of origin story for Satan. Um those passages in scripture are are not even really focusing on Satan. They’re they’re usually focusing on a human reference, which is what makes the interpretive process a little bit more difficult. and a little more painstaking in that regard. So, you’re highlighting um one of the key things that I think is really important to note and that’s why so many people are drawn to 7th Day Adventism oftent times and it’s because they have

And I feel like a lot of people have this Adventist or not. They’ll just find the same sort of thing elsewhere. Um but they have a bent toward like a Gnostic idea of I want to have some extra knowledge that the Bible doesn’t give. um that’s going to give me some sort of look behind the curtain, if you will. And I feel like a lot of Adventists fall prey to this because there’s so many things that you’re saying there that just in my head, obviously, I’m hearing them and they think that they have this extra insight that no one else has. And it’s really getting them to start

Questioning that based assumption um and bringing that then to the text because all of the texts that you pointed to are clearly the text that they they utilize. Um, and I think it’s important too that you highlighted that they’re some of these passages are not as clear as people may think that they are. Um, and exactly what you said regarding Ezekiel is typically um, right where they go to kind of say the theme that’s going on there in the story that aligns with what Ellen White is saying. She’s just giving extra details that God gave through her

To help us better uh, understand what the text is saying. She’s not adding to the Bible. She’s just giving a a clarifier to something that’s not that’s uh not as crystal clear or not as obvious in the text, which is kind of a subtle way of uh you know having a a a lens over top of the Bible or an authority over top of the Bible though they’ll want to tell you that no no we’re Bible only. But she Oh, go ahead. No, I was just going to say I I I totally agree with what you’re saying because one of the one of the I guess frustrating things about studying these

Things is if you go to like a local bookshop or something and it doesn’t, you know, SDA out of the out of the picture, any any sort of, you know, purportedly Christian bookstore, um, books on Satan and books on demons and demonology, you know, replete with with lots of detailed information that you simply can’t find within scripture. I I I found that most of the most of to me more of the compelling things that you can tease out of scripture is some of the word play that scripture uses. So God’s quite clever in the way he inspired scripture to be written. And

When you look at some of the uh for for example some of the etmological roots of Satan that that that Hebrew phrase Satanos um or Satan there in the the Hebrew from which we get Satanos in the Greek um it it seems to have some Aramaic origins that would that would couch the term of envy or despising. I find that quite compelling because even in the name, we might be able to tease out a little bit of the character from which this being uh has come. But but it’s it’s hardly conclusive to build some sort of origin story, but that sells. Um it’s it’s a lot easier for me

To just write a book and say, “Listen, I let me tell you let me tell you about where Satan actually comes from versus actually just dealing with the very limited um information that we’re given in scripture, usually in passing because we’re being pointed to the victory of Christ.” Amen. Well, she goes on to say, so the the narrative or the details don’t end there. She goes on to say that Lucifer’s rage couldn’t be contained. Um, the angels in heaven that that remained loyal to God tried talking him off the ledge, but he was too far gone. Um, which led Satan to making

Accusations against the Ten Commandments and that God’s government is not fair, which is another core foundation to this whole great controversy theme. So notice she writes, “Satan grew bold in his rebellion and expressed his contempt of the creator’s law, by which they mean the ten commandments.” That’s what the SDA church means. This Satan could not bear. He claimed that angels needed no law, but should be left free to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right. That law was a restriction of the of their liberty, and that to abolish law was one great object of his

Standing as he did. The condition of the angels he thought needed improvement. Not so the mind of God who had made laws and exalted them equal to himself. The happiness of the angelic host consisted in their perfect obedience to the law. Each had his special work assigned him. And until Satan rebelled, there had been perfect order and harmonious action in heaven. Then there was war in heaven. So when they read that war broke out in heaven in Revelation, it’s these extra behind the curtain details that they will then plug into that and think that

That’s what that is referring to. That war broke out in heaven over Satan being jealous of Jesus being exalted instead of himself, which leads to him making accusations against God and the Ten Commandments. But more specifically, his accusation included this as well. Christ left his position in the heavenly courts and came to this earth to live the life of human beings. This sacrifice he made in order to show that Satan’s charge against God is false. That it is possible for man to obey the laws of God’s kingdom. So, it wasn’t just a general accusation against the Ten

Commandments, but specifically that they can’t be kept perfectly. And this is actually why Jesus incarnated to silence Satan’s accusations in this controversy and prove that man can keep the law perfectly with God’s help. So Josh, does the Bible teach anywhere or allude to the idea that Satan began attacking the Ten Commandments in heaven and Jesus incarnated to silence those accusations and prove that they are wrong? Yeah. um not biblically and and I would say of of the questions you’ve asked so far, this is one of the ones that uh that to me is

Is one of the most problematic with some really key doctrines um for Orthodox Christian faith. So, one one of the things that I would key in on there is is in his role as accuser. So, so many will will go to the name Satan and um again, you can get into a little bit of of deep water with this, but they’ll tease out the uh the accuser uh reference out of his name. So there’s many names used to refer to to Satan. Um just just looking at my quick list, you’ve got he’s referred to as the devil or Diabolos. Be elible. He’s referred to the referred to as the strong one or the

Evil one. Haponaras, we we catch that in the Lord’s Prayer. He’s referred to as the tempter, which is or also as prince or ruler. And we can get into some of those in a minute. But if you if you just look to the reference as as Satan, uh many have looked to his accusatory um role. Um I I mentioned uh I think it was Ryan Stokes earlier, which I I would recommend caution with his work, but he’s done a lot of word studies at least with the the titles and names that are used for Satan. And you have to at least admit even if there is some sort of um

Prosecutorial role to Satan or some sort of uh even as an executioner type role to Satan, he’s clearly an accuser of the brethren. We know this from from multiple references within scripture. So if Satan has an accusatory role and we look to then him accusing the brethren about the Ten Commandments or accusing, you know, making accusations about the Ten Commandments or the the the keeping of the law, um I think that that’s where people might be coming from with that. But the reason I said this is this is sort of chipping away at a key Christian

Doctrine is that this chips away at what Christ did in the atonement. So one of the things that we celebrate as Christians is that Christ has come not only to pay our sin debt on behalf of our breaking the law. Um a law which Christ said is is itself right and good but Christ has also come to completely fulfill the law. So within Christian orthodoxy we refer to this as the passive and active obedience of Christ. That he fulfilled the entire law um with his perfect life and yet he also paid the sin debt um on behalf of those who have broken that law and who rightly

Stand before God. So when we think to the cross, what we celebrate as Christians is that God’s righteous and just wrath must be poured out on lawb breakakers. That God is in fact right to uphold the law and he’s also right to judge those and to punish those who have violated his good and perfect law. That’s what Christ has come to do on behalf of his children. So to then throw Satan into the mix here and say that his coming and that Jesus incarnated to silence those accusations and prove them wrong. Um, this would be tantamount to chipping away at why it was that Christ

Came to fulfill the law on our behalf and also uh to take the punishment for the sin debt that we have incurred. Um, the easy answer is that no, that’s that’s found nowhere in scripture. But the the more complex answer is that this starts to chip away against some of the key doctrines of the Christian faith in regards to the atonement. Yeah. Well, when you don’t believe the atonement was completed at the cross, um, because it’s all being filtered through this paradigm, uh, it makes sense as to why oftent times SDAs would not be able to see why this is such a a crucial thing,

Which is also why this is another thing I’m constantly bringing up. Um, they are on record stating that, uh, the great controversy theme informs all areas of of SDA theology. It also informs specifically why Jesus came amidst a list of a number of other things they’ve listed out. And that’s what it’s essentially being informed by. Um, and that seems to be a very different picture, like you said, than what scripture puts forth. I haven’t seen anywhere where it states that Christ came to silence accusations from Satan. Really, the whole great controversy

Paradigm revolves around God having to vindicate his character against these accusations. Right? It’s also why the law is such a central component in their theology because if you disagree with them, they will connect that as being a an attack from Satan which started in heaven. So when you tell them you’re not going to keep the law perfectly, you guys don’t keep the law perfectly. They think they do. They’ll say that they do. They’re the commandment keeping church. We uphold all 10, not just nine of the commands, uh is often times what they say. And if you tell them um and explain

To them, I’m not disparaging obedience. I’m not disparaging uh seeking a holy life and holy living. Um but you’re not you you’ve already violated the law and the law has no provisions for doovers. Uh that tends to kind of fall in deaf ears and it tends to oftenimes just be met with well you’re a tool of Satan in this great controversy. And again it brings us back to this paradigm that really has to be questioned in order to really uh see where the the problems are. you can’t just assume that worldview um which is then going to inform the the conclusions that you’re

Making. So I just say all that to say these these sort of questions are being informed by you know trying to help a person see what the real root issue is and that it’s actually something coming outside of scripture. Go ahead. Yeah. No, that’s that’s good and helpful because because like I said I don’t I don’t interact apologetically with with a lot of SDAs. One of the things I find really troubling about this whole scenario is at at the beginning of this I I mentioned that when I did um my initial research, you know, most of this, you know, comes off my

Dissertation research and a book that we wrote following that. But when when we looked at that stuff, one of the key reasons that I excluded, uh extra biblical literature, um was not because those things are unimportant, right? There’s there’s lots of fascinating uh second temple Judaistic literature that’s come out that can help you at least inform, you know, what were people thinking at the time? what were some of the common myths and common common conceptions that are flying around at that point. But one of the reasons why we restricted um the the course of that

Study was specifically because of the weight of of revealed and inspired scripture. So it was the place you know not some sort of unhealthy biblatry or anything like that but just to to hold scripture on a different level as theustas. This is God breathed and these other things are just simply they’re simply not of the same account. So, what’s interesting to me in this conversation is you have some things like you’ve pointed out that are very clear about what Christ came to do with the law. Um, why the law is good and what Christ has done to fulfill it and

Who the actual law breakers are. Um, who the lawgiver is and who is the rightful judge of those who have broken his good and perfect law. Those sort of dynamics seem seem awfully clear. So it seems it seems ironic that we’re talking about this in regards to Satan because one of the clearest stories we know of Satan is that he you know slithered into the garden and asked ha has God really said you know Adam and Eve being provided with God’s perfect revelation and yet the initial biblically revealed action of the serpent is to question what God has revealed in his word. So, it’s very

Strange to me that we’re relying so much on holy extra biblical, if if we can at least use that term, if not unbiblical, but holy extra biblical revelation then to explain what seems to be a pretty clear narrative in scripture of what Christ accomplished in the atonement. Yeah. And and that Christ’s active and passive obedience are such an important aspect in all of this. Um, again, probably a discussion for another day. They don’t really understand the law gospel distinction. Um, they really think that the law is the gospel. So, um, you know, Ellen White’s on record,

For example, saying that, um, the law points us to Christ who is standing there with his wounded body. But because that’s being informed by why he came to demonstrate the law can be kept, Christ then points you back to the law when you look at him because he’s showing you, look, you can keep the law. I have the wounds to show it. The law is is able to be kept, and I’m the the living representation of that. So, he points you back to the law, and with his help, you’re supposed to be able to keep the law now. And so they’re all kind of on this hamster wheel, but really the fuel

For all of this is extra biblical. It it’s not coming from the biblical text. Now, with all of that laid out, I know that was a lot. I want us to actually transition now to the actual defeat of Satan and what scripture teaches regarding this. I feel like that sort of ground laying work that we just did there is really important to understand regarding the defeat of Satan to kind of understand in the SDA zeitgeist that is um where they’re coming from. But according to scripture, how, when, and where was Satan defeated or has he not been? And that is still a future event

To come. Yeah. Um, and this is one that that that Christians frequently debate. Um, if if you were to ask, you know, most most Christians, is Satan defeated now? I think most Christians would probably look around and say, well, the world looks very dark. There’s evil. There’s there’s injustice. there’s unbelief. There’s all these things that we would associate with the evil one. Uh therefore, no, I don’t think he is in fact defeated. My my push back on that has always been that when you encounter scripture and and when you let scripture speak for itself, which I know that’s

That’s what every Christian aims to do, but I would argue that if we do that with this category that we’ll come away with a different conclusion. Um, one of the passages that that first uh I guess keyed me in on this was uh John 12:31. Jesus says, “Now is the judgment of this world. Now will the ruler of this world be cast down. Um, and that that word he uses for the ruler is is a is an interesting little phrase, but he says now will the ruler, the archon is the word in the Greek. Now will the ruler, the prince, the false false prince of this world be cast down. And he says it

Was now. When you when you look at that sort of dynamic there in John 12, it’s at this very fascinating sort of turn in Jesus’s ministry. You’ve got the the leadup of that first half of John. Um, the crowds are, you know, they love Jesus. They love seeing the works that he’s doing. But Jesus starts becoming more and more clear about what’s happening with his incarnation, what he’s come to do and what the cost is of following him. You know, in other words, Jesus is not just here to do tricks and and provide bread, but um there’s actually much more to this whole thing.

And then that second half of John essentially flowing from this passage, you start to see a little bit of a turn. You see you see the crowds start to go away. You see the miracles ramping up. They’re getting bigger and bigger. Jesus is is casting out demons. He’s raising men from the dead. Um, and yet the crowds are getting smaller and the opposition is getting more more antagonistic, more amped up. Um, this is right at that turn of which Jesus is explaining to his disciples what it was he came to do. And he says that part of his work is a casting out of of the

Ruler of this world. That that word cast out um in the Greek there in John 12. Same word that we find in Revelation 20. And I don’t want to open up that whole that whole discussion necessarily, but it’s the same word. He is cast out, Ekbalo, thrown out of this world. So then you look to some of the other gospel accounts. Um, one of my other uh my other favorites is Luke chapter 10. Um, in Luke chapter 10, Jesus is commissioning his disciples. He’s sending them out two by two. They come back and they’re reporting, you know, mighty works done in his name. They said

Even, you know, even the demons um are beholden to what we’re doing. And Jesus says, I saw, or you could read it as, I am seeing Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Now, now again, many Christians when they read this, they say, “Well, if Jesus saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven, that must have been at some time in the past. He must be maybe reflecting on some some sort of, you know, past event wherein he exercised Satan or cast him down from heaven.” But that’s not what Jesus says. He says in the context of his disciples coming back, he says,

“This is what I am seeing right now is Satan being Satan falling like lightning from heaven.” I if you continue looking through the gospels and and again, I’m not trying to pit Jesus’s words versus the rest of scripture. All scripture is God breathed. theustas. But if you listen to Jesus give his own account of how it is that he is accomplishing this victory in this world, one of the ways that he describes it as him having bound a strong man. Um this this this account occurs as the strong man uh passage or the beelible controversy is what it’s sometimes referred to. But you find this

In all three of the synoptic gospels. And Jesus says that in his coming to this world that he has bound the word there being deo. He has bound up the strong man. the strong man representing Satan, he says, “I’ve I’ve come into his house and I’ve I’ve bound him and restrained him that I might plunder the house. I’ve come for this house and the things that are in it. Um, therefore, I have restrained and tied up this strong man that I might plunder his house.” So, when you look to what Jesus describes his coming as having done, it’s very clear. He says, “I have bound Satan that

He might not uh do as he did.” And I can’t remember if that was one of the questions you were going to reference later is what the binding of Satan actually accomplished. So bring me back to that if if if that’s not on the question list cuz I want to I want to make sure to to address that. But Jesus says that he came to defeat that strong man. Now the tricky little bit comes down to when exactly did that happen. Um I think it’s very clear that he did that in his first coming. Uh in Christ’s incarnation um between his his incarnation and the ascension at some

Point in there Christ is binding the strong man and defeating him. But the question sometimes it becomes when exactly did that happen? Did it happen at the cross? Was it in the hour of his death on the cross that he actually accomplished this defeat of Satan? Was it uh was it in his resurrection? Many would point to his resurrection or maybe even his ascension into heaven and say this is that sort of key defining moment in which Christ defeated Satan. I’m a little I’m a little cautious on that just because I don’t think scripture is abundantly clear. Um many times in those

Passages, specifically with John chapter 12, it’s pointing to the cross and to the work he accomplishes on the cross. But if you’re fair with the gospel accounts, the cross is rarely referenced without sort of a view of what is to come. In other words, it’s not a cross for the cross’s sake. It’s the cross with the view of his resurrection and ultimately his ascension in view. It’s hard to separate those events, I would say, in the gospel accounts. So, usually if I’m asked, I I would just say some somewhere in that time of his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension,

Christ accomplished that defeat of the strong man. You are exactly correct. We are going to come back to the binding of Satan a little bit later, but I want to lean into the centrality of the cross in this context. SDA scholars and theologians love to tout that the cross is central to their paradigm. They’re they’re always going to say, “No, no, the cross is central. The cross is central.” They agree that Satan was defeated there in some capacity or another. However, this is of course filtered through the great controversy worldview. Another way of stating their

View would be that Satan’s accusations against God’s law were silenced at Calvary, where it was shown that God’s law is immutable and cannot change, which was part of this pre-earth accusation, which vindicated the law before the world. So, the cross wasn’t necessarily about Christ coming to fulfill the law. It was coming to demonstrate that you can keep the law. That’s the sort of framework that they’re starting from. But notice what Ellen White says regarding what happened at the cross. She writes, “The blood of Christ, while it was to release the

Repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin. It would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement.” So in the type, the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the day of atonement. So the cross in Adventism was only where the atoning sacrifice took place, not where atonement was completed and Satan was functionally what you would say bound. No sins were actually canceled there. The cross functions more like a conduit in their system. It was the means by

Which the earthly priesthood was transferred to a heavenly sanctuary building where Jesus would begin dealing with sin in heaven. That’s what they mean by the final atonement. Right now there’s this starting in 1844 to the present day that’s the antityypical day of atonement. This long drawn out period where Christ is conducting the investigative judgment. And this is because their model of atonement is a sevenstep program that they call the sanctuary. Jesus is currently at step five. And it’s only after the completion of all seven steps that Satan’s defeat

Will truly come. So my question for you, in what way was Satan defeated at Calvary and what actually took place there? Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s really it’s heartbreaking what you just laid out. Honestly, um I’m just thinking to Colossians 1, Hebrews 1, um these passages that speak about Christ above all earthly authority and power, having accomplished, not not accomplishing, but having accomplished something in his blood. So I’m saddened to hear that that sort of synopsis. you just gave. Um, but your question was to what what Satan has been bound from. Um, and that’s that’s

One of the ones that again I mentioned that this is not universally agreed upon by Christians. Many Christians struggle to to speak of Satan having been defeated or bound. Um, and and honestly, I think a lot of Christians would probably be sympathetic to the viewpoint of Satan having begun to have been bound because that sounds a little better. When we look at the world around us and we see uh we see evil and we see sin at work, it’s easier for us to think of something having begun. Um but I would say that’s impossible to square with what scripture uh confesses about these

Things. So anyway, you asked you asked what is it that Satan has been bound from. So uh number one I would say that it is clear that he has been bound. When Christ describes the binding of the strong man, he doesn’t say he has begun binding him. Um he says that he has been bound. Um, when we get to Revelation 20, which is always the uh the passage that uh that every esquetology likes to fight over, uh, Revelation 20 describes uh, I think most are agreed on some sort of unbinding of Satan. And it’s in the unbinding of Satan that I think we can get a lot of insight into what it

Exactly is that he’s been bound from. When we look back to the biblical evidence and we see especially in the Old Testament prior in you know in history and time to Christ’s earthly ministry uh we read about Satan roaming freely upon the earth. We we read about him roaming right into it seems into the very presence of God and to his angels. We see him making accusation against the brethren. We see all those things pretty clearly in the old uh Old Testament. Christ comes, he accomplishes his earthly work and we’re told Satan is restrained. So the whole question is

Then from what? Um I think the three things that scripture lays out for us about his about his binding is that the first thing is he’s not uh he’s bound that he might not deceive the nations. Um again it helps if we go to the uh to the outworking of his unbinding to understand what it is he’s bound from. And when we read Revelation 20:es 1-h or or uh and again trying to trying to reflect on those very very uh very broadly so as not to isolate any sort of esquetologies but that unbinding of Satan leads to an immediate deception of the nations. Satan goes out and deceives

The nations and seems free to do so. So if you’re to look around right now and say well it seems like the nations are deceived. Um I I would encourage you to reflect on what happens when the nations are truly deceived. uh when the nations are truly deceived, it leads to revolt. And that would be the second thing that I would say Satan is restrained from doing. When when Satan is freed to truly esqueologically deceive the nations, he deceives them unto revolt. This deception is not just simply a blindness to the gospel. Um uh many places in scripture, we’re assured that uh our own

Sinful nature does plenty to uh to blind us to the truth of the gospel, lest God gives gives us eyes to see or heart heart to understand or ears to hear. Uh but when Satan deceives, it’s unto destruction. So when Satan is released, um the nations are deceived and they immediately revolt against the king. Uh but the third thing I would say he’s he’s restrained from doing is preventing the spread of the gospel. So when Satan is bound, um if we if we think of that Luke 10 passage, I think that might be uh might be illustrative. Satan is falling from heaven like lightning and

Christ says, “I am seeing Satan fall from heaven like lightning.” And that’s given in direct response to the gospel mission of the disciples. The disciples are commissioned two by two. They’re sent out into the cities. Um they’re told to cast out demons. They’re told to spread the gospel message. Um they’re seeing souls converted. They’re seeing the enemy trounced. And in that context, Christ says, “Yes, I’m seeing Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” So, I would say the three things that Satan is prevented from doing is deceiving the nations, leading those nations unto a

Revolt that will end in their demise, but then thirdly, preventing the spread of the gospel message. You get another hint of this. Well, it’s not exactly hint. You get another uh evidence of this in the great commission. So in Matthew 28 when Christ is assuring his disciples of his ongoing presence with them through the power of the holy spirit through the helper that is to come. He said all authority in heaven and on earth is given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations uh baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the holy

Spirit teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. So Christ in the great commission passage itself tells us that all authority heaven and on earth has been given esquetologically to the incarnate son. He holds that authority. In other words, whatever authority Satan wielded in this world uh under God’s permissive decree in the Old Testament, he no longer has. And in that regard, we are then as his disciples called to go out and make disciples of the nations. That’s great stuff, Josh. Um, with all that in mind, because what you said

There was was just e excellent. Uh, I think that oftentimes, and I think esquetology can kind of just be this way in general, it’s very easy to go off into a lot of speculation or a lot of reading into things because oftentimes we’re dealing with apocalyptic literature or we’re dealing with images and pictures, etc. But with what you just said in mind, I want us to look at a clip now of an SDA pastor by the name of Dwayne Lemon. And listen to what he says regarding the crushing of Satan. Go ahead and introduce a thought. You you’re going to see me magnify this

More and more as we spend time together. But you know, as I told you last night, there’s a great work that God wants to do. This is really the whole of the gospel. The great work that God wants to do is he wants to separate sin from the sinner. And it’s a very great work. But go at the same time, God requires yours and my cooperation. That’s the only reason why it’s a difficult work even for God because it requires more than God. It requires us to cooperate with him. And so it is that we learned yesterday that God has a beautiful plan. He’s going to crush the head of that

Serpent, but it’s going to require our cooperation, our submission. And therefore, we saw that God has a beautiful everlasting gospel principle that was right there in the beginning of time, Genesis chapter 3, where God promised, I’m going to put hatred in the heart of my people towards sin and towards Satan. And though this might feel like a miracle to many of us because some of us have been bound for many many years, most of our lives, I am very grateful that Luke 18 and verse 27 says that which is impossible with man is possible with God. And so no matter

How much even the devil has convinced us that we could never overcome our bad habits and overcome our sinful ways, the Bible declares that whom the son sets free will be free indeed. All right. So notice there is a lot that we could unpack there, but he says there is a great work that God wants to do in crushing the head of the serpent. But to do it, he needs our cooperation. And like we saw earlier, he’s getting at the idea that Satan made accusations in heaven before earth that the Ten Commandments can’t be kept and that the law must be changed. Jesus

Silenced that at the cross by showing a fallen person can do so because he took on fallen flesh, they claim. And the death of Christ showed that the law is unalterable. But to truly crush the head of Satan, God needs you to come to him by faith to be empowered to do like Jesus and keep the law perfectly, this will lead to the ultimate crushing of Satan. Dwayne Lemon even saying that this is a difficult work even for God. So Josh, is God’s crushing defeat of Satan dependent upon man cooperating with him? Miles, how do I respond to that clip? There’s so much there. to talk about.

So, one one of the things with with any untruth there there’s usually an element of truth to it. Uh, you know, it’s never the direct the direct untruth that we find appealing. It’s always that that truth that has a or that untruth that has a shred of the truth in it. And again, we’ve been talking about Satan uh much and we can we can see that from Satan’s lies. They always have an element of the truth, but then there’s always that did God really say that twisting of the truth. So, one of the things that that I would recognize from what uh I’m trying to find a little bit

Of common ground there um from what the uh the clip showed is that God does use means to accomplish his ends. So, when we look to the commission of the church, there there’s a glorious part of this task that God’s people are called to wherein uh Christ is accomplishing victory through his church. We are called his body. We we are given a task in this world. We are uh imbued with his spirit. Um so there there is a sense in which um Christ accomplishes victory through his church. And again I’m saying that very generally um but trying to find some of the common ground there

From which this uh this man was operating in that clip. But one of the one of the problems with what he presented is um is a redefinition of many terms. So he mentioned the gospel and he said this great work the whole of the gospel is for God to separate sin from sinner. It’s it’s it’s near to the truth. But the the glorious truth of the gospel is that the gospel is something that is not us. It is not our work. It’s not the the work of human hands. The gospel is the description of what God has accomplished in the person and work of Jesus Christ. We are the recipients

Of the gospel as Christians. And for that we praise God to the end of our days and beyond. But Christ is the one who has accomplished the gospel. The gospel is about who Jesus is and what he has done in his death, burial, and resurrection. This is why when Paul gives that glorious recap of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15, he says very little about our task in this world that he says much about the person and work of Christ through whom we have life and victory. Uh the gospel is simply not about us. We are the recipients and beneficiaries of the gospel. We live

Because of the gospel. But but the gospel is ultimately something about Christ. So that’s that’s a very unfortunate redefinition of that term. Um, another redefinition uh which we heard in that clip was just God’s sovereignty. Um, it’s it’s always interesting to me when people define uh sovereignty different than how scripture defines sovereignty. Sovereignty being the fact that God uh as we’re told in the Psalms is in the heavens and he does all that he pleases. That means everywhere at all times and in all things. Um Isaiah speaks much of this.

Uh Isaiah 40-48 uh speaks much of this that God does everything that he pleases and everything that is within his will and purview. One of the ways that I’ve grown accustomed to defining sovereignty is that God has a plan or decree um and that he accomplishes that decree in all things that he does so devoid of human influences or outside influences. In other words, there’s nothing that can stem or block or derail God’s plan. God is sovereign. For God to be dependent on anyone is simply a redefinition of sovereignty. Sovereignty no longer means sovereign. I am not sovereign. I am I am

Dependent on God for all things. Uh God is not dependent on on me nor anyone else for anything. And if he was, that sovereignty would would be sacrificed because to be sovereign is to be independent and and fully in control. As the psalmist said, God does all that he pleases um in in the heavens and on earth. So, it’s it’s an interesting it’s an interesting redefinition to somehow paint man into the center of something that God says that he has accomplished in Jesus Christ. One of the one of the glorious drum beats of the New Testament is that Christ has accomplished

Something perfectly and completely. This is this is tantamount to the whole message of the book of of the Hebrews uh or the book to the Hebrews where somebody that sounds a whole lot like Paul um spent a whole lot of time talking about the fact that Christ is our great and final high priest. not just the great high priest but the final high priest. He is the the great and final temple. He is the new and better Adam. He is all these things completed in his work. So it’s it’s very unfortunate to take that and then then to reframe it as we saw in that clip

That you played. Yeah. And so you’re kind of getting a glimpse there of how a lot of Christianes is used, but it’s being defined by the great controversy theme. So, when they hear you say, and I guess I should say not all Adventists, but the the run-of-the-mill individual is going to hear you talk about victory or those sorts of things, and they’re going to read into that because they’ve been taught sinless perfectionism. That’s what real victory is. And that um the gospel is really about this good news that you can keep the law and that Jesus gave you a second probation. All

Of these details, folks, are coming from the great controversy theme and being brought to the Bible because the Bible doesn’t say these things. The Bible doesn’t say what Dwayne Lemon was just putting forth there. He used a lot of Christian ease, but that’s not what the Bible actually teaches. So, it even goes beyond maneping the law perfectly, though. And we talked about this a little bit earlier, and we’re going to get back into it again just because it’s such a central component to this. But it also uh speaks into their future esqueological projections. One of which

That you mentioned, Revelation 20, is that it plainly teaches that Satan will be bound for a thousand years on the earth. So, let me fill in some details or put some skin on the bones. I haven’t gone um or rather explained the the SDA system around the binding of Satan. When the second coming happens, the brightness will kill everyone who isn’t ready for translation. So those found worthy will be resurrected. The resurrection of the righteous, the first resurrection, and then they’ll and those who are alive that are are righteous will be translated and them along with

The resurrected righteous will be taken to heaven for a thousand years. That’s where the millennial reign will happen for a thousand years. a literal 10,00 years but in heaven. They then call this the millennial reign judgment. So we talked about this a little bit when I was on your podcast. Their three-fold division of judgment. So you have the investigative pre-advent judgment which is happening now. Then you’ll have the millennial reign judgment. This millennial reign judgment will be where they’re essentially looking over God’s work in the investigative judgment to

See that God is actually fair and just in what he’s about to do regarding the executive judgment. So they’ll often times use analogies like well someone may get there and be like well why isn’t grandma here? I thought grandma was a Christian. And God will open the books for all of them to see. Well, see, here’s, you know, grandma had all these sins that weren’t confessed to Jesus to deal with in the investigative judgment and be covered. And that will cause them to go, “Oh, okay. Well, then, you know, God is fair and God is just.” So, after a thousand years of doing that and

Looking over the books, God will then pour out the executive judgment which will be poured on Satan and the wicked. But you mentioned this earlier, the binding of Satan. What is it specifically referring to in Revelation 20? Yeah. So the Revelation 20 is such a is such a uh challenging passage, right? Christians Christians have long long found things that are challenging about this. But Revelation 20:1, he says, John says, “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. and he seized the dragon, that ancient

Serpent who is the devil and Satan and bound him for a thousand years. If I can just pause there for a minute, this is one of the ways that we uh we can fill in a lot of the blanks or or tie a lot of the uh uh tie a lot of the references to Satan together because between Revelation 12 and Revelation 20, we get these sort of descriptions where it where it lumps Satan together as devil and Satan and dragon and serpent. That ancient serpent referring back there to Genesis chapter 3. But continuing in Revelation 20, it says, “And threw him into the pit and shut it and sealed it

Over him so that he might not not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be released for a little while.” So the whole question is, what is this binding of Satan? And how are we to understand it? I’ve I’ve heard some commentators say that this refers to a complete sessation of all of all activity, of all power, of all influence, that if Satan is thrown into a pit that he must be restrained from any sort of activity or influence. But that’s just simply not what the passage says. Um the passage does not say that

Satan is unable to send his minions out into this world. It doesn’t say that he is unable to exert influence in some regard. But what it does say is he is specifically bound so that he might not deceive the nations. That is the qualifying phrase for what his binding means. So if we were just to read Revelation 20 with no other insight, we would have to say, “I know what this binding of Satan is because it tells me he is bound that he might not deceive the nations.” When we tie that together then with the rest of the testimony of scripture and we look at what Christ is

Describing in in his binding of Satan in his earthly work, we see that as one and the same. In fact, as I’ve referred to earlier, the same phrases and the same verbs are even used. So, in my humble opinion, I think that this is not only showing us the nature and the nature of Satan’s binding, but also the timing of Satan’s binding. It’s the same binding that Christ described in his earthly work. And it’s for a specific purpose, not for the cessation of all activity or influence, but specifically that he might not deceive the nations until such time as he was released. So with that in

Mind, their system continues that after the millennial reign, they teach that there will be a second resurrection, the resurrection of the wicked, where Satan, after having been bound on the earth alone for a thousand years, will have one final harrah with the wicked, where they’ll be raised and they’ll all rally together with Satan to try and storm the new Jerusalem that descends. It is at this point that the whole earth will have fire poured out on it and the wicked will be burned up. Notice what Ellen White says regarding this. She writes, “The wicked receive their

Recompense in the earth.” Proverbs 11:31. “They shall be stubble, and the day that cometh shall burn them up, sayeth the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. “Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished according to their deeds. The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his

Deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames, the wicked are at last destroyed. root and branch. Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited. The demands of justice have been met. And heaven and earth beholding declare the righteousness of Jehovah. So when fire is poured out in the executive judgment, Satan will be bearing the sins of those found worthy of being saved and will pay the ultimate penalty for them in the lake of fire, which will be this earth. Some people will burn longer than

Others, but will eventually go out and be annihilated. But Satan will suffer on longer than any of the wicked. That is what ultimately will bring about the defeat of Satan. His blotting out of existence, bearing the sins of the saved as the antityypical day of atonement scapegoat. Josh, does the Bible teach that Satan bears the sins of believers at any point? No. And I I don’t even know what more to say on that, honestly. That’s that’s so troubling. Um the fact that Satan would bear our sins in any regard um is is horribly offensive. And not to mention it’s tragic. Uh it’s

Tragic to deceive anyone um who could look to scripture and hear the words of our Lord and Savior saying it is finished to to Telsty on the cross having borne the punishment for our sin debt. Uh for those who would believe in his name. What a what a travesty of scripture to ascribe that not to Christ but to the evil one. That that that that’s horrifying. And no, that’s not taught anywhere in scripture. What we do find again just looking back to the to the Revelation in chapter 20, uh we do hear what happens um as as much as we might grapple over the language and the

Timing and I’m I’m sympathetic to those battles. And yet we’re told that when the the thousand years are ended, Satan comes out, he deceives the nations from the four corners of the earth and he is in summary fashion defeated by Christ. this is um and thrown into the lake of of fire and sulfur forever. Um it’s it’s a it’s a quite sumitive defeat. We’re not told exactly what percentage uh arise in this. Sometimes has been referred to as a great apostasy. Um I’m sympathetic to that language, but um at the same time it’s it’s a very summitive defeat. But as far as Satan bearing the

Sins um of those who are saved, absolutely not. And in fact, scripture clearly teaches that Christ is the sin bearer um who who takes our sins on our behalf. Yeah. So, this gets into their whole, like I said, their their whole system here of the sanctuary and this model that kind of like she alluded to earlier when she said that no sins were canceled at the cross. Um, she makes a pretty big blunder there because they claim there what what would you what you would call like a a theory if you will um around transference and that blood functions as a transference mechanism to

Move sin around. That’s a very regular uh picture or image that is painted and taught to 7th Day Adventists. And so they’ll point to the Old Testament uh Levitical priest work, the daily administration work, and they’ll say in type the the individual would show up with their sacrifice for their sin. They would lay their hand upon the sacrifice that’s going to be uh you know paying the penalty for their sin and in type their sin would be transferred to that animal who bears the penalty. And then the priest would take that blood and take it inside the holy place to

Sprinkle it before the veil to rest there until the day of atonement when the cleansing of the sanctuary would take place. Now the error with this is that Leviticus 4 is clear. There’s only two instances in which the priest took blood into the the uh holy place. And it was when the priest sinned or when the nation, the covenant people of God as a community sinned in ignorance that was done. But it was never done on a daily basis for penitent Israelites who showed up with their sacrifice to then transfer their blood inside the sanctuary. Yet that is entirely necessary for this

Whole schema to work because that’s what they claim is happening now in the antityypical day of atonement. You confess your sins to Jesus who is in a pre in a building in heaven functioning like a Levitical ironic priest. Even though they’ll tell you he’s after the order of MelkiseDC, he’s functioning in in that like manner that you confess your sin and then it’s transferred to heaven to this sanctuary building for Jesus to investigate it and cover it in the investigative judgment and deal with it. And if a person makes it through the investigative judgment and is found

Worthy of Christ’s atoning benefits, they will then have their sins again transferred from there onto Satan in this antitypical ceremony that’s going to take place where Satan as the scapegoat is going to bear the sins. So in their minds, there is a lot of confusion that is creeping in from all corners and all sides that’s painting the picture that makes it really hard for them to see how Christians hear this and think, “Whoa, what in the world? Satan bearing sins at all.” And in their minds, it makes sense with this whole schema. But like you highlighted there,

Um there’s just so many problems with this. It takes away from the work of Christ, the work of expeation, which is what the scapegoat functioned as, the removal of sin. Um, and there’s a number of things that we could get into on on that front, but brother point out it again, you’re you’re you’re the subject matter expert on on SDA theology, but it seems that it seems that the words of Christ in the New Testament must be very um I’m trying to say this gently, but it must be very confusing because there seems to be such finality, such completeness uh that Christ uses to

Describe his own work and also the that the New Testament uses to reflect on that work. I was just flipping to to one passage, Hebrews chapter 7 and verse 26. Um the author of Hebrews said this. He said, “For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest,” speaking of Christ, “holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens,” which that covers some of what we were talking about earlier. “He has no need like those high priests to offer sacrifices daily first for his own sins and then for those of the people since he did

This once for all when he offered up himself.” It it’s just such finality and completeness. I just find anyway I I find that immensely comforting from Hebrews but also immensely concerning with with what you’ve what you’ve laid out. Well, the book of Hebrews has been a thorn in their side uh since their inception. Um they have some fancy ways typically by proof texting to try and deal with the book of Hebrews. They tend to ignore entire chapters, not kind of seeing the overarching theme of Christ being better like you pointed out there. um from the ascension to 1844, Christ

Was not doing a parallel ministry to the daily ministration of the Levitical priests only in a building up in heaven to then enter into the most holy place to begin the day of atonement work in, you know, 1844. Uh but all of that stuff is is central. That’s really the central hinge for the SDA movement. If that falls and nothing happened in 1844, um it was a it was a farce. And the the scholarship of the movement understands that. But that’s why they’re going to defend this so vehemantly because ultimately Satan’s role in that whole schema um is just as foundational as

Jesus’s role. Sadly, actually hold up one other question for you Josh. What are your thoughts on this quote? Said the angel market’s influence, the controversy between Christ and Satan is not yet ended. This entering in of Satan through the sciences is well devised by his satanic majesty and will eventually root out of the minds of thousands true faith in Christ being the Messiah, the son of God. I I am I’m shocked to hear satanic and majesty put together. Um I’m I’m just shocked by that. When when I hear majesty, especially in biblical terms, I’m thinking, “Oh Lord,

Our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth, um to ascribe that to ascribe that to Satan is is is a horrific mangling of biblical language that ought only to be ascribed to our Lord and Savior.” Brother, thank you for being here. It’s always a joy to talk with you and may God bless your guys’ ministry. Let people know where they can find more of your guys’ content. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks so much, brother. We’re we’re grateful for you and and grateful for I said content earlier which sounds so so trendy. I’m grateful for the work you’re doing truly. Um but yeah, if

Anybody wants to to follow us, uh I’m I’m not particularly interesting, but we do have a channel. We have multiple uh multiple contributors to that. It’s esquetology matters. Um we we operate from a broadly reformed perspective and and really what we’re looking at is uh covenantal esquetology. So we have contributions from from various streams within esquetology, but we’re trying to uh not only make things a little less confusing, but also where there are substantive uh real differences to at least make those positions clear enough where people feel comfortable uh working

Through scripture and seeing that beauty that God has because one of the convictions that we have, and I know I’ve heard this from you as well, Miles, is just that um God’s word is not given to us to confuse or to frighten. God has a wonderful story of what he’s done in Christ and we want people to uh to to see the beauty of that story and ultimately to see the beauty of the Savior. So, thanks for that. Amen. Like I said, love what you guys are doing over there and uh until next time. Thanks again. Holy Ghost apostate. Did he say that? Come on, man.