God Saved Me After 42 Years In Adventism | For the Record Ep. 3

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Brother thank you so much for being here before we get too far into it what is your name and how long were you a sth day Adventist my name is Mike curn and I’ve been a Seventh Day Adventist for over 42 years born and raised in the church uh I was born in Pontiac Michigan I was uh accustomed to the Michigan conference those of you that are or have been Seventh Day Adventist you’ll know what the Michigan conference is but most of my childhood is in the wonderful beautiful state of Michigan my fond early years as a child was in Hastings Michigan uh my dad

Actually pastored two churches in Hastings and Delton Michigan which is extremely close to Battle Creek which most of us know is very highly connected to someone that’s pretty important in the Seventh Adventist Church and so uh I have you know my entire childhood is absorbed in uh kind of the background or the or the backyard of LG white and Kellogg which is kind of interesting kind of unique a little bit about my very young childhood I remember moving to Hastings Michigan uh we had the privilege of of living on this this house that had this beautiful Pond uh

Behind it so we as I’ve got two older brothers we would hang out swim around in this nasty dirty Pond Pond trees there’s Michael wow and Dad other bird feed so you guys having fun on this New Year’s Day yeah Doug we are all right how about you this is wonderful yes come join us here comes Mike my boots oh wow nice boots dad has there to NE Tramps in the snow my boots too Mike oh he’s got some nice boots on too didn’t you guys get anything for Christmas no not anything there’s our house look at that front of the house and look who’s coming David curn look who’s

Leaving here he comes folks look at him come wow there he comes and this yes ladies and gentlemen this is our house the front of it man what else can I say wow there’s David that’s what I can say there’s David Culver he amaz go down on his sled the amazing David cver and then Michael is ready to go down on his sled and here he comes folks can he do it oh and he hits it almost wipes out behind the tree he goes and oh yes he does it uh I’ve got very fond memories and Hastings in fact still have some friends and connections uh went to Advan education uh my entire like I said my

Entire my entire early early childhood years were spent in the Hastings area and then I’m a PK so we moved from there all the way up to uh we moved up to Midland Michigan uh close to Sagen Bay uh Midland area area Mount Pleasant and my dad pastored a church up in that area so most of my interaction and fond memories growing up are going to be steeped in kind of the early years of of just understanding what adventism adventism was and understanding what it wasn’t uh I will tell you that I started in Michigan my deep love for music at the age of six yes Mike he’s going to be playing

The piano for us he’s going to be playing Winter Wonderland I think and here he goes

Actually started taking piano lessons and I have taken piano lessons all the way through college uh concert trained pianist I also learned how to play the guitar and so music has always been a a very deeply ingrained passion of mine I remember when kids were out playing outside I was inside practicing the piano my brother and I were inside practicing the piano getting ready for recitals and Guild and all those incredible opportunities that I had as a kid while all the other kids were out playing and having fun so um yeah it’s just it was a it was a great lifestyle I

Didn’t I didn’t really have any negative interactions per se um I have fond memories of my parents um love them deeply they they love Jesus they were great parents we didn’t have anything as far as to want I mean had clothes on our back had a house uh that was taken care of had food in our bellies you know we were just good little Conservative Christian

Kids so my Adventist Heritage actually goes third generation back on my dad’s side fifth generation on my mom’s side and so when I think of Advent I mean it’s it’s my entire DNA it’s everything I know everything I grew up in I mean this this was my my Norm I remember taking great pride in who I was as an ainst um as I got older and I began to have conversations with friends and you know all all of my family was Adventists my dad has uh five brothers four or five brothers if I remember right one sister and uh all of them you know we gather together in backing on Michigan Grandma

Colber uh on Ruby Street uh we had fond memories of stacking 20 25 people in a TW bedroom small tiny house and we’d be sleeping on the floor and under the tables and you know and it wasn’t because we were poor um it was just because we liked as a family we enjoyed being together and you know every single one that came every one of us was Adventist and so you know that not saying that in in any negative way at all it was it was a joy it was I enjoyed my my Heritage and my my

Upbringing um I will say this there was an interesting story and I didn’t I didn’t really catch this until I’ve been processing some of this my dad’s only sister never really understood why she was is different um I remember my parents talking about her not in a bad way but just that that there were things going on and she was seeing things differently and she you know had different ideas about God and religion and I never really could get a a square answer on what it was and how it really why it mattered but I I remember very very distinctly that she was just different

She had different views and I remember my parents talking about her I remember siblings talking about her and how they were going to deal with whatever the situation was that I was too young to even know what it was but I think that’s a good example of a little bit of how I you know I I I was very proud of the curn I am proud of the curn name um in fact my wife and I’s business to this day is named with our name in it we’re very proud of the curn Heritage so I’m Mike curn a CEO founder of curn financial I graduated from uh College when I was in in my early 20s

And um you know really pursued the the teaching career thought I was going to be a teacher realized as I got into teaching that it was definitely an overworked underpaid underappreciated career and it it we’ve got doctors Physicians dentists you know individuals that have worked all their entire life uh either internationally or or or domestically you know in the Aven a system and so I’ve got fond memories but I I remember myself just feeling like we’re we’re special the Adventist system is special and anytime I would engage with a non-Christian

Or well non-Christian a little bit different you would try to convert them into you know obviously understanding who Jesus is and in the gospel but most of my interaction was debating with other Christians and trying to convince them that they’re they’re wrong and they if they just spent time in the Bible they would see the Adventist way that was the the funniest thing remembering my childhood is I remember um being told that Mike if you just get people in the word studying the Bible they’ll understand the avist truth because we believe in truth it’s all steeped in

Scripture um and I really bought into that I really believed it and I think that many of my my family sincerely believe that that is the case I I I think they they believe it to the core but I have found that that’s not really the case

When we moved as a family from Hastings Michigan which was probably the the best years of my childhood um or at least the Fondest Memories that I had uh my dad took a position uh as a as a pastor at the Midland uh Michigan AVST church and he had two two churches it was Midland and it was Mount Pleasant you know I remember things like it was a great place for taking piano uh so we had lots of Guild stuff lots of piano related recital um it was a a great opportunity and a great time period and both my brother my next oldest brother and I are concer fre and pianists and so

That was a lot of the the stage in in our lives where we were learning the consistency of U getting really good at music and so there’s a lot of fond memories in Midland but this is actually the time period in my early teens where I hit my first major Challenge and it’s been a challenge that has stuck with me for my whole life um there was a gentleman that that was attending our church that needed help moving out of his apartment and so um as you know we often would do we would help you know individuals and so I remember very vividly you know helping to bring uh

Stuff out of this guy’s apartment and as a 13 14year old young boy you know I happen to dump some stuff in a trash can and there in the trash can were piles and piles and piles of porn magazines and that was as you know a young curious teen boy uh that was the beginning stage of a of an addiction that haunted me has haunted me my entire life life it it’s been it’s been a struggle in that um I remember very distinctly when my parents who again I I don’t want people to get the wrong idea I love my parents deeply and I know my parents love me deeply and as parents I’ve got you know

My wife and I have we parents of 14-year-old twin girls and so I know that parents do the best with what they have and what they’ve learned and what they have skills for and so I don’t there’s none of this has any negativity to my parents in any way as I’m sharing this um but they just didn’t have the skills with the framework that they had and the understanding they had and quite frankly I think with the avenus system and the theological thinking played a role in this as I processed this because there was a lot of guilt Mike how come how come you keep

Doing this you’re supposed to be like Christ so there was a lot of unintentional shame and guilt that was put on as a very young boy and again I say that not because it was intentional but it’s it’s just the system that having a system that teaches Perfection and teaches obedience and teaches you know if you’re not obedient then what are you you’re rebellious and therefore you don’t really love God the way you should or it was all this imagery all this this kind of stuff that was going on in my life and so I never could be good enough and I had

This consistent Thorn In My Flesh that I could never get rid of no matter how much I prayed no matter how much I begged God to deal with the problem it would continue to rear its its ugly head um and I just remember you know my my parents taking me to therapy and counseling and trying to deal with this issue that their boy has and how ashamed I felt because I couldn’t handle it and I couldn’t deal with it and what does God think of me you know all this stuff and so over time as the years went by it kind of began to kind of go in the background and it never was re really

Resolved but the unfortunate reality is that it became one of the biggest problems as I met my wife and as we got married and as we started our family because nothing really had changed and so I I should give you some other background Story I mean both both my wife and I went to Great Lakes AVST Academy I met her my senior year in high school the year prior to that I had attended a very small private parochial um literally Off the Grid uh Academy that my uncle owned and ran called tamarak Springs Academy that was was my junior year that particular Academy was was at

A it was just north of pbridge Montana like 8 miles from the Canadian border and when I say Off the Grid it was literally Off the Grid you know my my uncle was a a a one-time rebellious Adventist boy who came back and is now you know very conservative very very much a staunch Adventist uh some some that are going to probably watch this later on will probably be familiar with tamarak Springs Academy and may have fond memories of tamarak Springs Academy so it was in that environment that like I remember you know while the problem that I dealt with as a teenage boy wasn’t

There because we were so far away from town and there was just literally nothing available around to get me in trouble but I remember you know the music wasn’t right the clothes wasn’t right your attitude wasn’t right um You need to make sure that you’re dealing with Sabbath at the right time at the right in in the right way and there’s certain things that you can do and can’t do and you know all of this was instilled even as a junior in academy and so when I ended up getting to to go to Great likes ADV advans Academy it was like a whole new world

For me you know this is like boarding Academy I’m on my own I get to begin to make some of my own decisions I wasn’t confined so much and of course I end up meeting my wife who quite frankly the very beginning I don’t know that we were a a I don’t know people would really have matched us together per se um you know she was on the aric she was on the gymnastics team and I was The Pianist for the choir and you know we weren’t really associating a lot and I remember my first interaction with my wife I felt like she you know she thought that I was goodlook

And I remember responding to her in a very arrogant I don’t know I was probably a prick back then I know I was you you you like me don’t you you think I’m you think I’m good-looking now that’s the way I approached my first interaction with my soon to be future you know in a couple of years we would we would get married but you know without telling my wife’s whole background story and her you know interaction with you know with dating and men and all the things that go on on the on the woman’s side of of this whole narrative um I’m just here to tell you that my problem that I was

Addicted to would begin to rear its ugly head as we went to college and we got married we got married in between our Junior and senior year in college I graduated in in mathematics my wife had a degree in education child psychology early childhood development and I had a minor in piano performance and we were off to be the good teachers we were both teachers I taught at um Georgia Cumberland Academy in Calhoun Georgia and my wife had a a job down near hyam Georgia at a private school in Douglasville Georgia you know I just remember the early years of our marriage being very

Very Rocky and it was all stemmed around honestly the way I the way I looked at women in general and so fast forward a couple of couple of years uh we we moved to East Tennesse and I took a a principal SL teer position uh for the school system and that was a not so great experience in that again my my problem was going to just rear its ugly head as we got into um I ended up locking horns with the superintendent of the church board uh there the school board system and ended up getting fired from the from the conference again that’s a ugly story but I ended up pursuing my next career I

Didn’t want anything to do with teaching because of the avenus system and because of how I’ve been treated and all that stuff I was still a staunch Adventist but I didn’t want to do anything with the teaching side and so I ended up starting a career at Northwestern Mutual and this was going to be this is going to be the final death blow to what could have been uh the worst chapter in my entire life and what ended up being the biggest chapter where God showed up and made things happen I ended up becoming a financial adviser at Northwestern Mutual and as I

As I’ve shared this before to other other groups of people I I ended up learning how to be a hero at work and a zero at home I was getting all the awards and the accolades and everyone in the office thought I was wonderful and I was the the worst husband and the worst you know wouldn’t say I was a bad father but I just wasn’t there for my kids I was never around and it was at this stage that I ended up actually acting on the things that I had struggled with my whole life and I ended up forming a relationship with another woman and ended up having a two almost two and a

Half year um adulterous relationship with this other woman and I share that not to to make you feel sorry for my wife or my family or like my my wife is the most dedicated godly woman that I’ve ever known and I know that there was a reason that God put us together because she’s so loyal and she’s so dedicated and she she has been my constant support but I’m going to tell you as we as we get to the Crux of this this question um I have to tell you kind of the the major ending where we almost got to a point where we were going to get a divorce um I remember very vividly it was November

December 2014 we were still living we were in an apartment and we were still living in um Johnson City Tennesse the girls were I don’t remember their well they would have been they were born in 2010 so they would have been four years or there abouts yeah four four years and we had had this apartment that had the master you know the master bedroom and then in between the master bedroom was the living room and then on the other side there was a bathroom there’s like a half bath and then there was two bedrooms that were um adjacent a a hallway we put the girls to

Bed we went to bed and as my wife has told me the story of of what happened and as I remember you know what happened on my side of things um my wife told me that she woke up in the middle of the night it was roughly around 3: in the in the morning and she woke up and it was of course dark she looked through the hallway and they’re on the other side of the living room she saw a figure and that figure was a very dark figure it had a hood on it was very it looked dark and it turned and it stared at her and it glared at her with these death looking

Eyes and as my wife has told the story back she literally turned to me and she shook me and she woke me up and as soon as she turned back this figure was gone and she just began to like sob and you know trying to catch herself now you got to understand something about the story my wife has always she’s an empath she has always been sensitive to the supernatural realm always been sensitive to to spiritual things and that’s a gift it’s a gift of it’s a it’s a part of the gift of that the holy spirit gives uh to some people I am not an empath I’m learning from my wife how to feel things

That other people are going through um but she knew something wasn’t right now this was before she knew that I was having an affair and so she turned to me and I’m telling you this story because not only is it important for what God has done but it’s also important to understand the concept of being used by God and what it means to be a prophet or a propheus in certain situations and just hang tight I’ll tell you what you’re going to learn what I what I mean by that so she turned to me and she began to ask me questions and it was like Mike what are you doing what

Have you done to bring this thing this demonic thing into our house why is this trying to attack our kids and I had learned this awful habit because I was in the midst of sin I was a complete hypocrite I was I was doing Bible studies at the ainst church leading out in studies claiming I was Godly and then it oh I was the worst ever just a complete worst sinner that you can possibly think of living the hypocritical life and so she kept asking me and this guys this wasn’t the first time that she’s done this every single time this has happened where she asked me

Questions I I got a fear in me because I knew what was about to happen and this is what would happen my wife would begin to shake she would shake uncontrollably she could not control it at all and she would look at me and say Mike tell me the truth you’re lying to me I know you’re lying to me because I’m shaking and I I don’t it’s not me God is shaking me I I can’t I it’s not me what what is going on tell me the truth and it was at that point that I finally broke down and I began to tell her and every time this said had happened in the past every time I would

Tell the truth her feeling would go away she would become calm again in and the shaking would dissipate and this is the moment where I told her that I I was having an affair that I was cheating on her and of course the shaking stop but of course the anger and the all the again guys it was not pretty it was not pretty but I tell you this as part of my story as part of my wife and I story because as I’ve learned learned what people think of when they think of like Ellen White Spirit of Prophecy the voice of God I can tell you with it without any doubt in my mind that in those moments

My wife was the mouthpiece of God for me she was speaking directly to me God was speaking through her direct directly to me because my life was going down the tubes because of the decisions I was making I was about to destroy my family I was about to destroy my kids lives the chapter that could have been told was that we would have been a broken family dad wouldn’t have been around and the rest would have been history so that’s that’s the turning point it doesn’t seem like how does that tie to adventism but what I’m here to tell you is we we moved within six

Months um we we moved to Arkansas which is where we’re located now um we moved to Arkansas we we reaffirmed our marriage together and we dedicated Our Lives to each other we dedicated Our Lives to God and we said listen if we’re going to make this work it something has to be different and the commitment that we made to each other was that the business was going to be dedicated to God and that we were going to build our relationship with God first and foremost before we built our relationship with each other we and I remember very vividly when we moved into faville

Arkansas we were in the home that we were renting at the time and my my wife wanted me so badly to be the spiritual head in the family and I just I I I couldn’t I didn’t have the skills I wasn’t taught the skills in the aous system um my dad even though I I love him deeply my dad never taught me these skills I knew I knew all the right text to quote I knew how to prove certain doctrines per se but I didn’t know how to study the Bible I didn’t know how to have a relationship with God I had knowledge but my heart was cold and I don’t think it’s fair that I

Place all of that on the aous system I’m just telling you that this was part of my story coming from the adven system and it’s part of the reason why I have certain opinions about the spirit of Prophecy and how God works and how he speaks because I know that God is very real and I know that he can speak through people but I also know that you can tell when he doesn’t and so I remember in in faithful Arkansas in our home I I remember very very distinctly that she was asking me to be the head of the house asking me to be the spiritual leader and I turned to her and I said

Jen I can’t give that to you I don’t have it I don’t have anything to give I don’t even know how to study I don’t know what it looks like to have a relationship with God and and I so I I I don’t know how to give that to you and so I told her I said you’re going to have to do this on your own and I’m going to have to figure out how to do it on my own and we’re going to have to form a relationship with God independent dependently of each other and then we’ll continue to close the gap as we grow closer to God individually God will bring us together and I and I know it sounds like

It’s a fairy tale ending I mean that’s exactly what happened we we d dedicated Our Lives to focusing on our the most important relationship and that’s your relationship with God and one of the things that I did in my Pursuit for studying is this is where um this is where I I I made a a very much a no no in the avenus system and that was I took my tithe it’s supposed to go to the church right well supposedly um I took my tithe I didn’t tell anyone cuz I didn’t want to be chastised for it but we didn’t have have much and I put my tithe money into

Purchasing um Logos Bible study software and I I began to commit myself to learning how to use tools to get access to the word of God in a way that I can engage in the text I could study it I could dissect it I could let it work on me I could get access to the original manuscripts and begin to study Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and and have resources and begin to really actually question and begin to use my own brain to think freely about what I really do believe and so this was the beginning stage of hey this was 2015 and since then I’ve began my own uh

I’ve began biblical Masters uh Masters in biblical studies I expanded my Logos library to 30,000 books I understand how to dissect Hebrew and Greek and again I don’t read it I can’t I can’t um speak it but I know how to use the tools and the experts and the scholars that spend their life dedicate their lives to doing that and so I I had a a deep yearning to hold scripture in high regard and I didn’t feel like the church was doing that even though I had been told listen I know I’ve heard it all listen my dad was a pastor I’ve heard it all listen listen Mike every single one

Of our doctrines are built on on on the Bible every single one of them they’re in the text I’ve heard that until I I’m blew in the face but there was something I I didn’t buy it because there was too many discrepancies that that when asked they would be swept under the rug or they would be Sid skirted and so I began in 2015 studying the things that I questioned and the very first topic I started with was wine I wanted to know really what the stance was on alcohol what was allowed what wasn’t what does the bible actually say and I I began to learn things about that topic

That I’d never heard of about how it it can be a beautiful gorgeous thing if used correctly and then I ran into a text that in Isaiah I believe it is that that actually says Yahweh commanded the Israelites some Israelites to drink alcohol and how how does that connect with the fact that my dad had told me and my my the church itself and my my church family had told me no you’re supposed to abstain from it it’s evil you can’t touch it how come how come one says one thing and I find different ideas in scripture and and then I remember very distinctly I was

Introduced to a scholar and I owe I owe so much to this gentleman I have so much gratitude for him a scholar by the name of Dr Michael it’s his it’s the late Michael Heiser he recently about a year and a half ago got stage four cancer and he’s passed away but I was introduced to Dr Heiser because I opened my Bible and I read Genesis chapter 6 you want to have a controversial conversation with an Adventist read Genesis chapter 6 and ask the honest question about what’s going on in the first four to six verses of Genesis chapter 6 and then if you

Want to have another really interesting conversation go to Psalm 82 what is going on with the gods and the gods being judged and like what’s happening I mean just it doesn’t fit the framework of the Adventist system and and I would get these just the same responses from these difficult questions as if Mike why are you looking into all this stuff you know you don’t have to be a scholar to understand this stuff it’s just the plain truth like I don’t I don’t understand why it’s such a big deal to you and so I got a lot of push back but the more I studied the more I studied

The more I realized that these people these Scholars that that are out there they are really intentional about holding scripture in high regard and so I just fell in love with the academic world of really treating scripture with what it is it’s an ancient document and so how do I understand it on its own terms and its own context and how do I surround myself with people that do that how do I read books and read read materials and take classes that are going to help me understand this now I’m telling you my side of the story but I need you to understand that

Just because I I’m an intellect I love being intellectual my wife is extremely smart and wise but she hates studying the way I do and I’m here to tell you friends that you don’t have to go through it the way I did in order to understand the truths of scripture my wife just picked up a Bible and began to study it and read it and just read it she wasn’t really going into the the indepth questions and conversations she was just dealing with what the text said to her and letting the Holy Spirit work on her and it’s so interesting because she was coming to

The same conclusions that took her a little longer because she was couple years prior to to me as far as study is concerned but she was coming to the same conclusions on important topics as we began to study the word and make time with him and I learned from another scholar that don’t be too don’t be too stuck on holding too tightly to your doctrines because we’re not saved by our doctrines we’re saved because of the work of Jesus Christ and so I began to lose loosen my grip a little bit on certain things that I thought I had right and what if what if it’s a little different what

If I look at it in a different way why do other people see things and so as we began to put these pieces together more and more questions began to get answered that made sense to the bigger picture so I I I just I owe so much gratitude so much gratitude for the opportunity to study the word of God with the ability to think freely think with your mind instead of being confined in a framework and interpreting the text in a way that fits a specific narrative it’s the most damaging experience to the Christian Life forget about denominational structure for a

Second and just study the word of God and let let him speak in your life I promise you he will move in your life I promise you he will change the way you think and the way you see and the way you interact and the way you behave with other people that’s all about living under the New Covenant treating others with love loving God and the Lord has been working a Great and Mighty work in both my wife and I and my family’s uh lives that I just would never have thought would be possible and I’m here to tell you that my marriage is the best that’s ever been I love my wife deeply

She’s the most amazing loyal woman that I’ve ever met I don’t deserve her but I’m so grateful that the Lord has put her in my life and that we’re doing this together as a

Team so it’s it’s hard to actually pinpoint the first time or the first Domino um I I’ll tell you with with the way my brain thinks I tend to forget all the bad I tend to you know compartmentalize all that stuff out so this is actually having this conversation and sharing this with those that are that are watching actually is helpful for me uh to be able to think through some of this stuff and I mentioned this this scholar by the name of of Dr Heiser and I referred to this interaction with Genesis 6 and and if you don’t know what that is there’s a debate around the

Sethite view and I I would say the the pin prick that kind of made made the framework crack for me now at this point in my in my journey I became very aware that was what was important to me in in my spiritual walk is that I was honoring ing the text I wanted to hold it in high regard I didn’t want to I didn’t want to base my ideas and decisions and my beliefs on things that were in between the text or that I could read into the text or that I had extended from the text or extra just straight up fairy tale fairy tale novels that were made up I wanted to

Know that if I if I told someone I believe this I want to know beyond the shadow of the doubt that the text can uphold it and that it’s not my idea that it’s backed by lots of smart individuals that spend their time and dedicate their life work to holding the text in high regard and so as I said my first entrance into this was Dr Heiser and the entrance point was his book called The Unseen realm which is a fabulous book and it’s all about the supernatural realm as it relates to Genesis 6 and as it relates to it gets into other narratives and it it kind of introduced

Me to the world of Academia I’ll pause for a second because in the Adventist world this is this is like a no no and I’m going to share something and I’m going to share this not because I want to disparage my parents in any way okay I’m just telling you the situation I had a a very I didn’t know at the time that it was going to be so true but my my dad told me something probably about I’m guessing but probably about five years ago he made a statement to me and it was when I was beginning to really kind of spend lots of time three four five hours a day I’d get up at 5: in the

Morning I’d be dedicated to studying the word and reading I was I was becoming just a ferocious reader and if you knew me as a kid I hated reading but my dad told me he said Mike be careful because if you study too much you’re going to study yourself out of the church I’m going to let that sink in because it confused me at the time I I the way I took it was Dad are you telling me that if I study I’m going to uncover things or I don’t even know how to take that and so it had a reverse effect on me because I knew there was something wrong with that

Mindset you’re telling me that an individual can’t be intellectual they can’t wrestle with the text and actually be truthful with what’s in the word of God and be an avist now I don’t think that’s what my dad was intending when he said be careful Mike because if you study too much you’ll study yourself out of the church but fast forward a couple of years I was introduced to that was just kind of the first little the first little pin prick right and it had all around the supernatural you know ties into Genesis 6 and the rim and the Nephilim and the again stuff that most

People don’t study in and again this has nothing to do with Doctrine this is just studying the Bible it’s just it’s just dealing with the text and what’s in the text and so I was introduced to Dr heiser’s podcast which is the naked Bible podcast I tell you what right now if you have time in the car and you want to listen to something that’s going to just blow your mind there’s like 450 episodes and they’re like it’s just a Hebrew scholar just digging through the word like no one else that I know and it just it just made me ravenous for more information and understanding and being

Honest and holding it in high regard and so I took um a couple of classes from his Awakening School of Theology um I began to contemplate should I get my masters and my biblical studies like what should I do and I was introduced uh this was just last year um so about about a year ago actually coming up in uh in early November so it’s only been probably 10 months since this has really happened but I went to a society of biblical literature with a very close friend of mine it’s an international academic scholarly conference for nerds is what it is it’s

Probably the most most on this call would never want to go to it my wife thought it was probably Nails on a chalkboard at the time but when we went to this this conference together which was like five or six days of six to eight hours of dissertations and lectures and just I mean just crazy amounts of highlevel criticism and some stuff that’s just nutty what blew my mind is the avenus biblical research Society was there there’s a lot of other groups that were there and so I was I was I was excited because I I wanted to listen th this is to to me if I’m going to get anything

Really good like answers to certain questions and things that are on the high level I mean these are the scholars so I scheduled a couple of sessions I remember very vividly we walked into the very first uh session I was excited aist Scholars right this this should be this should be it and I walked in 20 minutes early to the session and lo and behold what are they talking about LG white at an academic Scholastic conference about her red letter books and how this and that and all the and I just had this it was almost like this repulsive like is this what it’s come to is this

What this movement has come to that we’re we’re at a place where we are supposed to be engaging in the word of God and the scholars are focused on LG white in fact the entire theme because the way they do these things is they do things for every year and you know what the theme was for this particular year for this last year the cosmic conflict the great controversy theme this is what the scholars were so every I went through every single one of these things was all about Ellen White and The Cosmic conflict every single one of them I sat in one it was the last one that I

Could that I could stand and it was all about is Michael the Archangel Jesus and I sat there and listened to an a scholar an AVST scholar give his best his best answers and I’m not a scholar Friends by no means I I’m an amateur but there were holes all over in his arguments not because I’m smart but because I’ve just been reading I’ve just been studying the Bible and I can see I was able to see thank you Jesus I was able to see the issues and so that’s where like the major crack in the entire system it began to kind of fall apart as I came off of that

SP conference and I was excited bought all kinds of new books I I met Scholars I met friend friends to this day that are academic Scholars that are friends of mine that I can ask questions with it was just the most beautiful experience ever and it it shed a light on the fact that these people these non-adventist Scholars they aren’t mishandling the word of God I’m not saying this about all okay I’m just saying like my experience at this event was the opposite of what I had been told my whole life be careful be careful what you read don’t pick that

Book up don’t read this you know only read the books that are you know you you know what I’m talking about if you’ve been in the avenus framework they have to be stamped review and Herald right they have to be stamped with the avenus stamp and then it’s okay this was the part where that whole ideology began to crack and it was a it was just a slow fade from there on and friends you got to understand that it was at this point um my wife and I uh we have always been very active in the church always very very active in the Seventh Adventist Church from praise team my wife is a

Fabulous vocalist um she’s just an amazing musician with her voice uh my kids uh play play musical instruments uh we we all sing I’m concert train pianist I play the guitar so we’re we’re heavily involved but not only that because of our business both my wife and I are very effective leaders and I don’t say that to boast in any way my wife has has sat on the Advisory Board to a a couple hundred million dollar company um and she’s worked her way to that position she is smart she’s intelligent and we’ve always dedicated our lives and our leadership and our skills and our

Resources to the church so much so that my my one of my closest friends who was an Adventist Pastor the previous Adventist pastor at the church that we just recently left uh him and I started a podcast together and it was all out of this idea that we could wrestle with Concepts and ideas and you know at the time I was an elder at the church he was the pastor and he was really the only Pastor that I’ve ever interacted with that actually allowed me to deal with some of these questions and didn’t like freak out about it and we became very very close

To each other but about um uh about about a it was about a year year and a half after I became an elder I became the head Elder of the church when I became the head Elder of the church I’ve been the head Elder uh for two and a half I believe it was two years but when I became the head Elder roughly two years ago of of the AVST church that we just left this close friend of mine stepped down in in the pastors uh he ended up moving into the conference and I was left leading the entire church as the head Elder in the midst of questioning all of this and it was at least two to three

Times a month I was preaching and I refused to preach Ellen White I refused to preach things that were not grounded in scripture my wife and her best friend were leading out in women’s ministry putting together Bible study my kids were involved in Pathfinders like I mean we were we were heavily integrated into the leadership and Ministry of the church and it was in this environment that I went to this conference and God was working he he was working in my life and I knew that I I had put been placed for a reason to guide the church through the transition but after we found a new

Pastor I knew very clearly that the work that God had for my wife and I was no longer in the church and I remember is roughly two months ago maybe three um I preached a sermon and it’s very Vivid in my mind I preached a sermon I Comm aded that I would preach a sermon that was strictly about the Gospel of Jesus Christ about his life death and Resurrection The Gospel not the Everlasting gospel Three Angels message thing that Adventists like to make higher more important the the Full Gospel right but the only gospel the Gospel of Jesus Christ The Gospel that Paul was given when he had

An encounter when he was Saul the gospel that he writes about in Galatians and Romans and Ephesians and like the gospel and I gave a Bible strictly scripture sermon and I was blown away by the hostility that came from the congregation because because I told them friends it’s it’s not about the Sabbath it’s not about the Ten Commandments it’s not about the things that we as Adventist hold close in our culture it’s about Jesus it’s about the gospel you want eternal life it’s through the name of Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross that’s it the

Minute you add anything else to it you add anything else to it and it’s a workspace system after that interaction there was one individual that was so hostile towards me he was sending me hate texts you’re not an AVST you’re not this you’re not that blah blah blah blah blah I can’t believe you standing in the Pulpit you should feel ashamed of yourself like just absolute hate okay and it was from that interaction that I ended up having a meeting with our pastor because he knew this was going down and he knew what had happened I sat in a coffee shop with our

Pastor and I I said Rick I can’t do this anymore I I can’t keep living a lie I refuse my Integrity is too important to me and and the fact that we are to image God that is our function that’s the way Humanity has been created in the image of God to be imagers of him in what we do say think how we interact I said I cannot keep giving one thing to the church but I believe something else and I told him I said Rick Listen People come up to me and ask me Mike what do you think about this as the head Elder what do you think about this I said Rick I’m I’m I’m done telling them

Them do you want what the church believes or do you want what I think what I’ve studied I said I can’t be a hypocrite anymore and I’m I’m not going to share because I don’t want to disparage him he shared something in confidence with me that I’m not going to share but I will tell you that I think I can say this with enough confidence most pastors if they’re honest with the system they know better they know better they know that the system is the system they know that they have to abide by the system because that’s where their paycheck comes from

They know it now I’m not saying this is true for every single one but I know some of you that might be listening I know that you you know that there’s a difference between the AV a system what scripture teaches and so I I just this is a A A A desperate plea for you to just be faithful to the Lord stop stop worrying about what it might look like or what might happen or listen I’ve been there my wife and I have done that we’re in the midst of it Jesus said some some are going to have to give up their mother and father and brother and sister to follow me are

You willing I’m telling you it’s scary as all get out but it isn’t really because Jesus is so good and the honest truth and and the the beauty of the Gospel when seen with the scales taken off of your eyes I can’t even do it justice I just I I want you to experience it that’s what I

Want now what what is life like after adventism it’s not nearly as scary as maybe I I thought it’s kind of funny because as I was thinking about this particular question um I’m reminded of a couple of movies I don’t know if any of you have seen Divergent it’s like an electrical wall and everyone’s told what’s outside the wall like don’t go there it’s evil it’s bad like we’re all safe in here everything’s good and we’re happy here I just that’s what comes to my mind when I think of this question because everything that I thought like things like oh you know

Sunday Keepers they don’t study the Bible they got it all wrong I’m going to tell you a story real quick that will relate hopefully and that is um back when my wife and I were still attending the Adventist Church and this happened just recently um one of the elders that served under me while I was a head Elder there um he also was singing on the on the praise team and we had this is super ironic okay in that we all know as Adventists former Adventists that um Sunday keepers are are yeah got to keep them arms they’re they’re Babylon right I mean all those

Protestant churches out there they don’t really have the full truth but yet here’s the irony we will rent our Adventist Church to a Sunday church and we’ll collect money from them so I’m not sure how that works in the evidence system I don’t I don’t know I don’t know how that functions I just find it funny but anyways there was a Anglican Church uh there is an Anglican Church that uh is doing very very well that uh that rents from the church that I that we used to attend and uh we were having a conversation my wife was the one that was having this conversation with this

Elder and I was up in the AV Booth I was over hearing it we were talking about the coffee stains that were in the sanctuary and you know how coffee is a big nerve right for Adventist but let alone all the coffee St that were in the church and so um we were talking about this and I I I think Jen asked uh the the Elder you know well how do you know why this is happening I mean the the Anglican Church that had only been renting from us for a couple of years they went from 50 to 60 members to they were pushing 400 members in two services and this was over just

Like two years you know meeting in you our facility and when my wife shared that with him his response to it is well I mean that makes sense I mean the devil’s working hard with it and I literally I I overheard this and you should have seen my wife and I I mean just like are you serious right now did did did you really say that and of course the the the normal like well you know what I mean like I mean you know know it’s in the backpedaling that tries to transpire but that’s you know I share that because what is it like after listen it’s nothing like what I was told

You know the the anst of potentially going to church on a Sunday and like having you know the holy lightning strike you because you’re walking into another building on Sunday and I and I get the concern I I I felt it a little bit myself until I realized that that’s just the systematic framework of a system that wants to keep you in a certain position and in all reality I’m just going to share this what helped me and it might help someone that is thinking of coming out of adventism and the concern of you know not keeping Sabbath and Sunday and that whole thing and the

Sunday national law auor International and that whole fear-mongering that happens um I do want people to understand from an academic standpoint that Sabbath does not equate the worship in fact without getting into great detail worship did not happen on Sabbath until after the Babylonian exile when they went into Exile with the Babylonian uh Nation the reason they went into Exile the Israelite nation was because they had broken the Covenant and the laws pre- Babylonian exile you look at all of the the situations that relate to Sabbath you won’t find any reference in

Scripture to them worshiping there were three instances that required a holy convocation totally different they weren’t tied to necessarily what we think of Saturday in fact some of those weren’t even on Saturday so those are a little bit different but all the pre- Babylonian exile um Sabbath reverence was literally staying home and resting and not working and making sure that you were refraining from certain things and there was a list of things that the priest would do and all I mean again that’s a a very very bad overview but you get the idea so

They they were end they ended up going into the Babylonian exile because they had broken the Covenant and they had actually you know broken some of the laws and so when they came out of Exile the the reinit Traditions that came out of the Babylonian exile was the 1500 laws Rabbi laws that were established as a hedge to protect the law so that they wouldn’t go back into exile and it’s out of the Babylonian exile that we see all of the synagogue worship beginning to happen as you study Jesus’s interaction with the the the rabbis of the time the Pharisees and the Sadducees

And how he’s he they claim that he’s breaking the Sabbath many of those claims were the rebbi laws because he’s a Jew don’t forget that he’s a Jew he’s keeping the Sabbath because he’s a Jew okay and my question would be are you a Jew because if you’re not a Jew that’s the first indication the Sabbath probably is different and should be different because you’re not a Jew so for me as it relates to like what was it like you know I I had to come to grips with listen Worship in in breaking out of my way of thinking worship is not the same as Sabbath and then I had to deal with kind

Of the whole framework of what Sabbath is and meant and as I began to understand that Jesus in Hebrews that Jesus is better than and yes Jesus is better than Sabbath Sabbath was supposed to and designed to point to Jesus and so as I rest and as my wife and I and family rest in Jesus it’s not about a day like it just be it’s a house of cards friends it’s a house of cards it just begins to crumble when you begin to really truly understand the beauty of what Jesus has done and how he came to fulfill everything in the law and the prophets he is the answer per Jesus

Is Sabbath he should be to you so what was it like tell you it’s been the best experience ever I didn’t get a lot of time to actually worship when I was uh an Adventist because Sabbath was the busiest day of the entire week we still try to rest on a specific day meaning that we try to refrain from being busy and spend time with the family but we go to church on Sunday and we worship with a phenomenal group of of Christians that just love the Lord a bible-based church and I’m telling you what the Lord has just been softening our hearts in the way we just we just

Worship the Lord and we’re so grateful to be a part of unified part of the body of Christ I never felt like I was the B part of the body of Christ before I was part of the Adventist appendage that being cut off I don’t know that sounds pretty morbid but I feel like we’re a part of the body of Christ and the body of Believers because we’re focused on the true Gospel of Jesus

Christ at this moment what’s on my heart is a simple concept and the concept is around salvation the moment that you or I add anything to the gift that Jesus gave on the cross what we have done is turned that into a workspace system and I I want so deeply for all of my Adventist friends to understand the ramifications of that what the scriptures say about adding to and I I I don’t know how to it’s so difficult to express this in a video setting but if I could I would tell you to feel the weight this the the extreme weight of what the law requires on an

Individual the fact that if if you and I break one law that death is required please please Adventist friend stop focusing on the law of Moses do you want to be like Moses or do you want to be like Jesus because I have found inside the Adventist system there’s so much of a focus in fact I just came back I just came back is our last Endeavor and it just this just literally hit me we just came back from from the camper that was in Gillette Wyoming over 60,000 Adventists the the very Monday that we got back I turned in my letter and my wife and I we left the Adventist Church

And do you know what the theme was Moses believe the promise but here’s here’s the thing do you want to be like Moses or do you want to be like Jesus because Moses if we follow the law of Moses then the weight and I wish I could I could show you the weight of the law and the curse it is a law of condemnation and it pains me to hear statements like oh Jesus came to give us another chance to keep the law by the way that’s an Ellen White quote that is that is desecrating the beautiful gift that Jesus gave so be very very careful be honest be Al allow God to cut you to the

Bone if it needs be to the tomorrow of the bone to dissect the parts of our lives that this Systematic Theology has just it’s just difficult to get through I get it it’s hard it’s hard to deconstruct and figure out what is scriptural and what isn’t I get it but it’s our journey and if you’re willing and dedicated to spend time in the word of God and be honest with what the text says the holy spirit will take the blinders off the holy spirit will peel back the scales that end up happening when we when we talk and when we engage in the law of Moses that’s exactly what

Paul says so my my final thought is Friends the minute you add anything anything even the but oh but the Sabbath but the Ten Commandments but no Jesus Paid the price and we can obtain eternal life by Believing on the name of Jesus Christ that’s the gospel and it’s such good news it’s such beautiful good news stop adding to it because it turns into a gospel of works