DEBATE: Does the Bible Teach That Death Is A Sleep? | Catholic vs. Adventist

Well hey there thank you all for being here and an especially warm welcome if this is your first time with us Adventist or otherwise so we are back with another open discussion this time we’re going to be listening to two varying perspectives on the nature of death we’ll probably end up getting into the nature of the Soul some I would imagine I will note that based on how the last open discussion went moving forward these will be a lot more structured and formalized to keep that from happening again so the noral question of the night does the bible teach that death is

A sleep does the bible teach that death is asleep an important topic so I’m looking forward to the discussion but first before getting into it if you like what we are doing here and you want to partner with us you can do so at answering adventism tocom donate our mission is to equip as many Christians as possible to reach as many Seventh Adventist is possible with the true Christ and his gospel and it is through the support of our partners that we are able to do just that that so A major major thank you to all of our partners and YouTube members taking the affirmative this

Evening is Matt Mara Matt’s been here before um and we’re excited to have him back Matt first came to Jesus when he was just 21 years of age a former punk rocker at the time he found in Jesus all the help he needed he became a Bible teacher and a preacher of the Gospel to many lands including Africa Indonesia Malaysia Thailand and Singapore he has a deep passion for sharing the gospel and God’s love through the truths in the Bible he holds a bachelor’s degree from Andrews University and Wasa Hills College he resides in Highland Mills New York with his beautiful wife Michaela

And children Jacob and Julia and then taking the negative side this evening is Joe hesm Joe has also been with us before just not in this format he is a Roman Catholic apologist at Catholic answers and he is the host of the Shameless popery podcast he has a law degree from Georgetown University Law Center in Washington DC a Philosophy degree from Kendrick Glennon seminary in St Louis and a theology degree from the pontifical University of St Thomas aquinus in Rome he enjoys speaking and debating on a wide range of issues including the papacy the beliefs of the

Earliest Christians the Eucharist and sacramental Theology and pro-life issues gentlemen thank you so much for giving us some of your time let me get you unmuted here thank you for being here thank you for having us thanks for having us absolutely so a quick rundown for the audience to let everyone know the agenda for the night each interlocutor will have an8 minute un uninterrupted introduction to make their case this will be followed by 80 minutes of back and forth cross-examination and questioning broken down into 20 minut uh 20 minute increments of control time the

Individual that has control time can control the conversation by way of asking questions but we obviously want the person being asked to be able to answer the question so it’ll be 20 minutes of asking and then it’ll reverse 20 minutes of asking and then they’ll do that same thing again so both individuals will get 40 minutes each of control time we want to have a good rigorous discussion tonight where two positions are both presented and examined and then we will close the night off with each individual being given an eight minute uninterrupted

Closing to share their final thoughts I will be functioning as a neutral moderator facilitating the dialogue and making sure we stay on subject if either individual needs scripture brought up just ask and I will get that brought up so you don’t need to be distracted with any of that if we do happen to get off track which is understandable in these discussions I will step in and get us back on track gentlemen final point in the past we have used a buzzer to indicate when uh there’s one minute left as well as when the time is up the problem is if a person is talking the

Buzzer sound tends to be drowned out so no one hears it and ends up uh just continuing to go along so I will Simply Be verbalizing when you have one minute left and when the time is up if you are in the middle of a thought when time is up feel free to finish the thought any questions nope all right we discussed backstage and Matt will be starting and kicking us off your time will begin sir when you begin speaking great well thank you uh miles again for hosting this discussion uh welcome everybody again my name is Matt Mara tonight I’ll be speaking on what

The Bible says about death you can learn a little bit more on my position by going to www.adventuresinvisibility.com

His virgin birth uh the physical resurrection of the Dead we do differ on what is the state of the dead before that Resurrection before that bodily Resurrection so the question tonight does the bible teach that the death is a sleep my position is in the affirmative that the Bible consistently uh teaches that death and describes death as a state analogous to sleep in which the dead are unconscious and awaiting Resurrection so in support of my position I’ll be examining uh key biblical key biblical text number one number two uh addressing any counterarguments that are commonly

Raised and number three demonstrating the theological coherence of this view within the broader biblical narrative so as far as key biblical texts uh the metaphor of death as asleep is not incidental in scripture it’s actually both pervasive and intentional uh considering a few examples we can turn um at random here in the Old Testament as a witness to Daniel 12:2 where we read and many of those those who sleep in the dust of the Earth shall awake I’m not sure if miles you want me to wait for you to bring it up but I’ll just keep going um Daniel 12:2

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the Earth shall awake some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt the use here of sleep clearly refers to the state of the dead and the imagery is tied to the hope of resurrection and in the context that’s where it is likewise the Psalms also affirm the unconscious state of the Dead in psalm 146 and verse4 it says Psalm 146:4 it says when his breath departs he returns to the Earth on that very day his plans perish this again supports the idea that the dead are not active or conscious Psalm

13:3 consider and answer me oh Lord my God light up my eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death okay so these are some Old Testament Witnesses the new test confirms as well uh and continues this theme Jesus himself refers to death as sleep in John 11: 11-14 when speaking of Lazarus he says our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep but I go to awaken him when the disciples misunderstood what Jesus was saying he clarifies that he is speaking of lazarus’s death Paul frequently uses the term sleep for death as well for example 1 Thessalonians 4: 13- 14 he writes but we do not want you

To be uninformed Brothers about those who are asleep that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope for since we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so through Jesus God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep this language is not metaphorical in the sense of minimizing death but rather to reflect the hope of Resurrection all right so Point number two I’m going to address a little bit on some counter arguments one common objection is a passage uh that has popularized the immortality of the Soul um or that the soul uh proceeds after

Death uh is Luke 16: 19-31 the story of the rich man and Lazarus describes conscious uh activity uh after death or so it seems this is a parable however not a doctrinal teaching on the intermediate State uh Parables use vivid imagery to convey moral or theological truths without necess necessarily providing uh a little account of events and I’m sure we’ll be discussing that further additionally passages like Philippians 1:23 and second Corinthians 58 where Paul expresses a desire to be with Christ these are often cited as evidence of an immediate Consciousness

After death however these verses can be understood in light of Paul’s esic hope meaning his focus on being with Christ at the resurrection not at an interim State okay number three theological coherence uh the view that death is asleep aligned seamlessly with the overarching biblical Narrative of Resurrection it’s very very closely tied which is why if you go to adventist.org uh hyen uhde hyen and uh hyphen Resurrection they’re closely linked together the consistent hope presented in scripture is not of disembodied souls in a conscious in intermediate state but

Of bodily Resurrection at Christ’s return for example 1 Corinthians 15: 22 and 23 Paul and emphasizes that the resurrection is the Cornerstone of the Christian hope he writes for as in Adam all die so also in Christ shall all be made alive but each in his own order okay so when will all be made alive Christ the first fruits then at his coming those who belong to Christ this future orientation makes little sense obviously if the dead are already conscious and experiencing their final punishment or reward so conclusion the Bible’s consistent use of sleep as a

Metaphor for death reflects the unconscious state of the dead as they await the resurrection this view is rooted in both the Old and New Testaments withstands scrutiny against common objections and harmonizes with the biblical Narrative of redemption through Resurrection um I look forward to hearing Joe’s perspective on this and engaging in further in discussion as I said I’m sure there’ll be some text that we’ll be repeating thank you you got two minutes left are you good uh yeah I’m good I have some other things I’ll go through as we as we discuss all right thank you so much for

That Matt Joe the same courtesy will be extended to you your time will begin when you begin talking sir wonderful well I mean let me again uh start off by saying thank you to you miles for hosting and for thinking of me for this debate uh and Matt for taking the trouble to advance the Adventist Viewpoint particularly on a platform called answering adventism I respect that a lot it’s it’s bold it’s I’m I’m a fan uh although I suspect we’re going to disagree more than we agree this evening it is certainly My Hope for all watching and all involved this can be done with

The spirit of Christian charity and the desire that maybe all of us uh have something to learn or appreciate more on the topic of the Soul on the topic of the afterlife on the topic of resurrection and of life with Christ which are hopefully near and dear to the hearts of of everyone here and everyone watching so if I may I’ll just sketch out the 20,000 view uh for the negative side and then show some of its implications uh first it’s necessary to say a little bit what we mean by soul and uh I would say this you are uh not your soul you are not your body you are

The union of body and soul you have different parts to your body so to your person excuse me so describing your person is just your body or just your soul which are common errors that even Christians fall into would be like describing water as just hydrogen or just oxygen it’s a mistake and it’s a mistake that we see corrected in the biblical accounts and in fact I would suggest that you see this in increasing clarity as you move throughout the Old Testament and then as you move from the Old Testament to the New Testament one of the basic principles in interpreting

Scripture is that there’s this idea of what sometimes called progressive revelation and this is spoken to at the beginning of the epistle to the Hebrews that in many and various ways God spoke to us by the prophets and now he’s spoken to us by the Sun so when you’re getting the especially in the Torah the first five books of the Bible you’re getting things that are true but you’re not getting the full story if you were you wouldn’t get any other books after that right and so we want to take everything we’re seeing from Genesis forward but build upon what we’ve

Already learned and be willing to learn new information so as we’re going to see this you’ll see things for instance the view of the afterlife becomes clearer as we move through the Old Testament and becomes a lot clear as we get into the New Testament that’s also true uh when we’re talking about the state of the soul and so soul and body you are the union of these two things and this is certainly how scripture speaks again especially in the New Testament to give you an example Jesus in Matthew 10 verse 28 says do not fear Those Who Kill the body but cannot kill the soul rather

Fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell and uh it is sometimes claimed including by the Adventist website including actually at the spot that Matt referenced adventist.org and then all the rest of the stuff I don’t remember it off hand uh it’s claimed that this is like a third Century uh like introduction from paganism and that is just flatly not true the idea of Spiritual Beings is certainly found uh from Genesis onwards you have Spirits you have the Holy Spirit you have uh Angels you have demons you demons are even described as unclean spirits so the

Idea that there are a spiritually we would say in technical terms it’s called the spiritually subsistent being where it is something that exists in a spiritual way apart from a body is purely biblical the question is simply whether that’s true of the human soul if the human soul behaves like other spirits and there is plenty of evidence that it does and we got one uh bit towards that in Matthew 1028 with this reference to the death of the soul in Hell notice also that Christ distinguishes two things one he’s distinguishing between body and soul but

Two he’s distinguishing between the death of the body and the death of the soul and if you pay careful attention you’ll find that kind of language used all throughout scripture there are several different places uh referring to spiritual death so to give if I may just a few examples of that uh in James chapter 5 verse 19 my brethren If anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back let him know that whoever brings a sinner from the err of his way will save his soul from Death now the implication there is not the person’s about to kill themselves

The belief there is that they’re cutting themselves off from spiritual life because their soul not their body is going astray their soul not their body is incurring spiritual death and this by the way makes complete sense of the biblical data to give just one Old Testament example in Genesis chapter 3 when the serpent tempts Adam and Eve the remember the the warning of God is that if they eat of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil on that day they will surely die and yet they eat the fruit and they don’t biologically die this is instead a reference to

Spiritual death now to be sure mortality in a physical sense comes into the world but they don’t actually die that day so if we don’t want to say that Satan was right and that God was wrong it seems we have to acknowledge that they did die in some sense on the day that they rebelled from God but not obviously in a corporeal sense of death now this distinction between corporeal and spiritual death is found as I said throughout scripture it’s why for instance in 1 John 516 to17 John can say that there is sin which is Mortal meaning deadly and then he can say in

The next verse in verse 17 all wrongdoing is sin but there is sin which is not mortal which is not deadly again the idea there is not that you’re going to physically die if you Rebel from God the idea there is that you’re going to spiritually die and it would be a a strange permutation of the text to read it as corporeal death and if that’s not enough look to the fact that St Paul talking about Eucharistic discipline in 1 Corinthians 11 warns them in verse 29 anyone who eats and drinks without Discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself that is why many

Of you are weak and ill and some have died so obviously the people reading First Corinthians who Paul is describing as weak ill and even dead are not physically dead like unless you’re saying you know he he wrote first Corinthians to those who had already died biologically then you would seemingly have to say there is this clear biblical distinction between bodily and spiritual death I’ve I’ve spent a lot on that but I think it’s an important principle uh to to lay out now turning from there to uh the New Testament parable of Lazarus and the rich man if you want to call it a

Parable there’s a question about whether it’s a parable or a description for our purposes it doesn’t matter I’d say two things number one this depicts something that clearly is at odds with Adventist theology which is why they have to say oh it’s just like vivid imagery if one minute left thank you if Jesus is presenting an accurate vision of the afterlife an accurate vision of death in his Parable then adventism is wrong and the resolution should be negated because what we find there is a few things that are are particularly important in Luke 16:23 we’re told the rich man died and

Was buried and in Hades being in torment he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom so where was the rich man well bodily he was asleep in the grave spiritually he was very much not asleep and we see him having a conversation with Abraham likewise we could say where is Lazarus you know you already heard Matt mention that in John 11 Jesus describes Lazarus as bodily or as asleep we would say all of those sleeping images tied to death are referring to bodily sleep that spiritually something quite different is depicted as going on which again in Luke

16 you get this conversation happening time okay so I think that it gives us enough of the starting place and we can kind of let the conversation develop from there thank you gentlemen all right thank you both for that we are now going to be transitioning into our 80 minute cross-examination period which just to remind people will be broken up into four 20 minute segments each of the interlocutors receiving 40 minutes of control time control time is for you to lead the discussion by asking questions and examining just so the audience understands the person controlling the

Time and asking questions can do exactly that they can control their time as they see fit if they want to move on to a new question because time is running out and they want to get through their questions they are free to do so Matt the control time will start with you again the time we’ll start once you ask your first question sir okay thank you um question Joe uh you spoke about the uh you not a soul you are a union of soul and body so do you also affirm or believe that the soul is naturally Immortal the soul is naturally Everlasting because it doesn’t have the

Conditions of mortality that bodies do so bodies break down there’s nothing like that the soul okay um so when you say Everlasting can you break that down a little bit more like do you mean so in in technical terms there’s a difference between Everlasting and eternal because Eternal properly speaking is without beginning or end and we don’t believe in like the pre-existence of souls like Mormons do so we we believe that the soul has a beginning but not a natural end you believe the right has a beginning but doesn’t have an end the soul doesn’t have a natural end like it’s not outside

Of the power God that he could annihilate a soul we don’t think that does happen but it’s in the nature of the body you see you know all the effects of entropy and age and everything else those things aren’t true at the level of the Soul so how does your understanding of a soul not having an end um does like what does that mean like does that mean it won’t cease to exist does it mean it won’t die what does that exactly mean when you say it doesn’t have an end it won’t cease to exist it won’t be annihilated I mean again it could be annihilated by a special Act of God we

Don’t believe that does happen but it’s not outside for purposes of our conversation of the nature of the soul the question of would God choose to annihilate a soul that would not have died naturally uh is a a separate question I just want to make sure that distinction is being made very clearly so if you think about the nature of Angels and Demons Angels and Demons aren’t getting old they’re not just like dying of old age they aren’t getting cancer they’re not none of the things that can kill uh a person bodily impact Spiritual Beings that’s not the way

Spiritual Beings operate so in as much as you have a spiritual component to your being that component of your being endures now what that endurance looks like is the whole question of Salvation like is this an eternity with God in what we would call eternal life or is this an eternity a part from God which we would call Eternal death okay um so question for you is okay thank you for that answer um it’s it’s still a little bit ambiguous in terms of the so what would be the answer to the question is what kind of death is the wages of sin spoken of in Romans 6

Verse 23 which by the way it’s actually go ahead Contra yeah contrasted with eternal life so what kind of how how would you describe that as far as um how would your understanding of death be in that situation yeah there’s like a three-fold sense of that because you have the the wages of sin if you go back and think about what we’re talking about here the original Rebellion from God that incurs spiritual death that it cuts off proper relationship with God Adam and Eve are not enjoying heaven but they are en enjoying a sort of paradisal relationship in fact even the word

Paradise for w Garden has obvious reference to the Garden of Eden so they’re enjoying Paradise but they aren’t enjoying what we would call the full glorification like there is still something more that they can desire in terms of the the degree of their Union with God and they’re being transformed into godlikeness this is why uh the devil is able to tempt them with that in Genesis 3 that he wants them to desire to be like God but he wants them to try to get it on their own terms so that spiritual life and death framework is already at at issue here so they’re seeking uh a

Sort of if you want a spiritual elevation or glorification and instead incur a spiritual death they they cut themselves off from Eden they’re cast out they have suffering they have all of those effects from it they’re spiritually wounded in their relationship with God there’s a whole realm of what we would call Original Sin additionally there’s bodily death that mortality enters into the world with this and then on a tertiary level there’s also the corruption that St Paul speaks about when he talks about all creation groaning in agony there’s a

Sense in which the entire material Cosmos in some mysterious sense suffers as a result of original sin okay so okay I mean that’s that’s all right so you gave three three levels to the word death in terms of the context of the wages of sin um so right because like we we would see original sin is is a radical Act of rebellion like when Adam and Eve rebell from God if you even you just read Genesis 3 and say what gets corrupted and it’s like well it’s man’s relationship with God it’s Adam and Eve’s relationship with each other it’s their relationship with the natural

Cosmos and we would say even further you could talk about the relationship with oneself that all of the the levels of interior relationship are corrupted they’re not totally abolished they’re not totally destroyed but they’re they’re warped and damaged in a pretty fundamental way so is Romans 623 then since we’re on that and it’s up on the screen um so is that speaking of spiritual death 23 yeah that the wages of sin is not just that you bodily die uh but you actually are eternally cut off from God that is the the natural consequence of so spiritual death is being eternally

Cut off from God yeah and I mean in an approximate sense spiritual death is not having the life of God within your soul we okay um the the because I’m just saying the text is contrasting eternal life with uh with death therefore the death is you know we can obviously say Eternal death but you’re saying spiritual death is eternal death or spir I’m sorry I’m just kind of so when we’re talking about eternal life and eternal death this is one area where I know Catholics are going to part company from some camps of Protestants we would say that it is possible to

Leave eternal life and likewise to leave Eternal death by becoming saved so but it is that it is in reference to that now once someone dies whether they’re in a state of eternal life or death is fixed it’s permanent but prior to that point someone can turn back they can you know second Peter 2 talks about those who’ve been Ransom by Christ going back to their sins they went from a place of spiritual death to a place of spiritual life and then back again so we would say you can move from a place of spiritual death to life but it is a a reference to

The relationship of the soul to God because you are made for Eternal happiness with God and nothing apart from God will ever satisfy your soul and so to have everything but God is to have nothing okay um just quick thing is is uh if eternal life right is more than spiritual right then wouldn’t death also be more than spiritual um yeah I mean like I said death in the sense of original sin includes both bodily death and spiritual death okay um now you referred to you’re you’re getting the um I think you picked up the idea of spiritual death you referred to back in the garden right

Genesis uh chapter 2 and chapter 3 and uh how do you align your idea now I don’t disagree that there was a spiritual death but I don’t believe it was merely speaking of spiritual death um okay so the the reason I’m bringing this up is that I believe the death that uh we’re reading here in context if you go to Genesis chapter 3 verse 22- 24 uh is related to them living forever I think that is that is probably one of the meanings of it um there like the way the early chapters of Genesis us age where you see this Progressive shortening of Ages As you move through

Seems to be speaking at least in some sense literally or metaphorically uh to kind of the effects of of sin and Rebellion from God making life worse on both a bodily and spiritual level like understand I’m not suggesting sin only harms you spiritually it harms you bodily as well so it’s it’s not an either or like you’re not going to get me to say sin only hurts you spirit and not bodily it’s not the case like if you do hard drugs and you say does that hurt you spiritually or bodily the answer is going to be yes both okay um so all right so uh how do you define

Then uh according to how you define your theological position on the on the on the soul right how does your definition align or differ with the biblical language About Soul meaning nefesh andsy so nefes and psyche are used in a variety of ways like you don’t want to build a theology just from a a concordance particularly when you’re looking at several different centuries and different authors and the way they use words like think about even the way we use soul in English like if I’m listening to Soul music or if I say you know I’ve got soul but I’m not a soldier

I’m not making a claim about the interior animating principle of my being I’m not making a claim about a spiritually subsistent part of my myself so you’ll find times where nefes just means you know a living person and we use it that way with soul in English now like there was not a soul in the room we don’t mean soul in a philosophical or theological sense there we mean it in this broader colloquial sense of a person like we could also say there was nobody there and we’re also not just referring to their body you notice you can do that with soul or body and you

Really mean like uh uh what is it called synty like when you talk about a car is a set of wheels but even though like literally a car isn’t just Wheels correct correct talking about part of it um okay uh so I I want to go into um and again I want to be in the form of questions here so I can have you answer um implicitly here and explicitly but so the soul doesn’t have an end and to you again that is stating that the soul does not die meaning for all eternity like the soul just it depends what we mean by die like the soul is not naturally annihilated okay but the soul can can

Enter into Eternal death like we believe in Everlasting punishment so like in the separation of sheep and goats when Christ talks about some going to everlasting life and some going to Everlasting death the same adjective is used to describe the the duration of both life and death so okay so I’m glad we’re bringing that up because I you know I want this to be more conversational I know it’s like question I don’t want to be so interrogative but I don’t I don’t mind it at all I you’re not you’re not offending me at all okay yeah Matthew 2546 for the audience so we can clearly

Understand um okay so in your in your estimate in your understanding the Matthew 25 the sheep and the goats you’re saying that the Everlasting uh punishment is is the you’re saying it’s punishing for all eternity it’s eternal from God right Eternal separation from God but in your definition that means that they are they are being punished for all eternity like the punishing continues on and on and on that that’s what Eternal punishment literally means that’s what if you have a life sentence your sentence is for life if you’ve got a punishment for eternity if

It’s an eternal punishment um correct so the the so your your understanding of it is that yeah they’re eternally separated from God right yes but to me that is the punishment but to you you’re saying that is the punishment but you’re stating that their soul is going to be eternally being punished for that eternity so in other words I’m saying that Eternal punishment I’m trying to understand so when you say Eternal punishment you’re stating that they’re going to be punished for all eternity meaning like there’s an action that’s happening for all eternity with that

Person if you want to talk about it as an active as an action I mean it they will go away into Eternal punishment like if someone is serving a life sentence the sentencing in one sense I guess you could say is going on for all eternity the act of being sentenced but obviously the judicial aspect is over in a moment in both cases okay yeah um but I the way I’m seeing it is that when when God puts those in Eternal punishment I mean they’re they are going to be destroyed there are so many um so I don’t I don’t see that at all in Matthew 25 46 like it

Doesn’t say Eternal punishment and they won’t experience it anymore than it says the righteous are going to go into an eternal life but they won’t experience it you have to add add some language to the the passage to make it the punishment of death right verse 41 and in verse 46 um sorry if you can scroll up to 41 miles right 41 uh speaks about the Eternal fire that’s prepared for the devil and his angels okay then you go to 46 he’s describing those who are going to be cast into Eternal fire and then 46 these will go away into Eternal punishment so the Eternal punishment is

Now is equivalent to the Eternal fire them being put in Eternal fire is the same as them going into Eternal punishment right but the righteous in into eternal life so it’s do you uh so so how do you how let me see how do I question this so I don’t make I don’t want to make statements in the question but how do you see um the quality of eternal your stating is describing the punish the punishment as opposed to the uh yeah the duration of the punishment obviously is eternal meaning so the way I’m looking at it is that the results of the punishment is eternal but they’re not

Going to be punished for eternity meaning the punishment so okay so when we look at other places that describe this right like how do you harmonize your view with like how Jude describes Sodom and Gomorrah or how Peter describes Sodom and Gomorrah when it’s when they’re comparing that to how the wicked are going to be at the end of the age right so Jude 7 for example and second Peter 26 so how do you so in other words how do you not see a total ending of the wicked or of the unsaved from that point um because I think the people in s Gomorrah are enduring the punishment of

Eternal fire but they’re actually brought to ashes I mean because you know you see yeah sure but like if if you’re thinking of it bot then it’s just not true like there is not an eternal fire still going on in Sodom and Gomorrah but if as Jude is pointing out they’re showing a visible example of the reality of Eternal fire then it’s completely true like Jude 17 points to the fact that the people who rebelled against God and Sodom and Gomorrah did not just suffer physical death they suffer the punishment of Eternal fire literally it’s it’s right there in the text like

They don’t just die they die and go to hell the fire uh in Genesis actually speaks of uh coming down from God right sulfur and um fire Brimstone in the King James right um and that fire is uh you know in terms of uh in terms of the act in terms of the actual quality of that fire that fire was eternal fire because it came from the Eternal God no I wouldn’t describe it as Eternal fire no something coming from God doesn’t make it Eternal fire it’s not described that way in the Old Testament well it it does because it doesn’t it doesn’t say that the fire so

The Eternal fire you’re saying doesn’t doesn’t go out does keeps burning eternal but it went out Everlasting right like the the word here can mean Everlasting which is is more again we translated Eternal because that’s the way we normally use that word but it has a beginning and no end like it isn’t like fire and brimstone has has eternally coexisted with God right it just comes from an eternal being so this is what so do like the planets that doesn’t make the planets Eternal okay that’s what I’m saying so Jude is saying that the fire that went

Down on Sodom and Gomorrah was eternal fire and they were and they suffered that punishment and they were burnt up I’m saying I think you’re misreading the passage that yes they did burn up and I think this is referencing the fact that they also experienced an eternal fire so in terms of the way that the New Testament authors read the Old Testament they will view Vis like visible physical events as signs of spiritual realities that cannot be seen so for instance in 1 Corinthians chapter 10 when you have the pillar of fire and the pillar of cloud

Going before the Israelites and you have The Parting of the Red Sea in 1 Corinthians 10 St Paul reads all of that as an a prefigurement of baptism of water in the spirit and and he describes it in that way and then the eating of the Mana and the drinking of the water from the the rock is Supernatural food and drink so it’s he’s he’s doing these things as prefigurement of things in the Christian Life that aren’t as visible to the eyes so likewise the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is a visible sign of an invisible reality in this case the invisible reality is what Jude 17

Describes as Eternal fire he’s not claiming that the fire in Sodom or Gomorrah was eternal physically it it clearly was not it’s not going on still it has a beginning it has an end it doesn’t meet any definition of Eternal that the fire is instead the one you aren’t seeing which is hellfire okay um so maybe if I may just add one more thing to I mean I mean was a couple of points G to make one was the Greek on the on the word Eternal does mean without beginning without end but I mean I guess you it can’t it doesn’t have to I agree with you that it doesn’t have to mean

That but it is the word used for each even though the word can have other meanings like with soul one of the problems we have is a lot of important biblical Concepts have words that don’t just have one and only one meaning so like the word for worship there’s not one New Testament word for worship there are several and none of the words only mean worship so you can’t just do theology by concordance it doesn’t work you have to look at what did this author mean by this one minute left Contex so in this case um literally the verse let me skip to it let me skip to one other

Question because we only have one minute and then you um question is is so is there a hell burning right now yes okay um Matthew he speaks of it in the past and the separation of sheep and goats like it has been prepared for the devil and his angels okay but when you contrast that with Revelation 20 you actually see when that actually happens when the devil and his I know Adventists have very idiosyncratic views on which parts they do and take do do and don’t take literally and like the timeline with Revelation but I don’t think that’s a solid foundation to kind of build the

Theology from I think again we’re going to get into the cross examination on on your end um but I think what it is is that there’s there’s there’s a lot of clarity way more clarity in scripture on the uh result or the end of the of the unsaved time okay all right um all right I’m gonna start actually with something that I want to just make sure that everyone involved kind of understands the Adventist view of the relationship of soul and body are you a fan of the kind of box and Nails uh analogy or wooden Nails analogy you know what I’m talking about I do know I I do understand what

You’re talking about but um I I go ahead and and proceed well no I don’t I don’t want to try to give it I was going to give you a chance if you wanted to explain it because I think that might help uh clarify kind of where you’re coming from theologically with the with what the soul even is yeah I I go back to Genesis 2:7 uh

Yep so um I I come back to that that uh we are a soul that we are living creature you know living creature the word soul and creature is the same uh is the same Hebrew word um neesh so that’s that’s where I stand is that we came from the dust of the ground that’s where we return naturally uh and then what gave us the life which came from God that goes back to God but that in itself is not an that is not that in itself is not the soul uh Soul what you call that Just Breath of Life the breath yeah the breath or spirit that is yeah what are the spiritual properties or what what

Are the physical properties or whatever you would call it of the breath like does it have Consciousness do you have like what is the breath you in any sense I would say the breath in terms of Genesis 2:7 um the breath is what is what makes us a living being combined saying when you die the breath goes to God is there some sense in which you are with God or when when you die and your breath goes to God is is that you with God in any sense of the term you are in the ground right so I’m asking I guess in terms of a principle of identity who or what is the breath I mean we can say it

Comes from God is the breath God is the breath you is the breath what it is life it’s life that God gives to the dust so you and I guess I don’t know what it means for something to just be it’s the same thing it’s the same it’s the same thing that gives the animals life it is you know it is you know the the the breath that the animals have it’s the same breath that we have right so once once at death that simply goes back to God because that’s where it came from and we which we didn’t come from there we came from the ground we go back to the ground I’m sure you

This is just it sounds like you’re actually maybe clarifying my question this is not you this is just some other thing it’d be like if movement left your body and movement concept that leaves you so you you so so here’s the deal um the way I view it is that your as a Believer okay we’re not gonna talk about the unbeliever this point but as a Believer right your life is is uh hid with God in Christ right so Christ has your life right so at death at natural death at physical death that Earthly death you are you are you still exist you’re just a corpse right you’re just a

Corpse your body’s in the grave it decomposes or whatever it is um and that will be resurrected at the time at Christ’s coming you will no longer uh have you know so and so yeah so that’s that’s how I would view it so the life the breath that God gave us is literally life okay and struck by something because you just said uh you are your soul but then that when you die you are in the grave but you don’t have your soul right like the breath is gone so there’s no soul right if I’m understanding you correctly so soul is your soul is not in the grave soul is

Equivalent to me I a soul you’re a soul right okay so you know uh you know when you when you pass away when I pass away um we are in the grave that us we’re in the grave we are resting until the resurrection so your soul is in the grave you are in the grave I guess is it true to say your Soul’s in the grave or not because if the question is like what happens to your soul when you die I feel like that’s a really important question to answer I would just say your soul ceases to live okay so your soul doesn’t go to the Grave your soul just it becomes annihilated is that fair to say

I your your your soul ceases to live you’re there’s there’s no you’re you’re you are so in other words you right now this Joe Hesh that I’m speaking to Matt Maria that you’re speaking to we are souls right as soon as as soon as the breath leaves and we are what we call what we would call dead um it’s not that we don’t have a soul it’s just that our soul ceases to live what is the difference between not having a soul and your soul ceasing to live because we were given a soul at Birth or we were given at Soul at were in Adam at the Breath of Life um so I

Would say yeah let me just reward this just to make sure I would yeah I would say that what was the difference between you having a soul and you’re not having a soul and being dead is that what you’re saying no I’m saying so like it sounds like you’re saying the union is the soul and that Union is broken in death the union between breath and body I would say I I I would say I would put it this way you your soul your body all that is resting in the grave oh so your soul is resting in the grave I would say your soul ceases to be conscious you Seas to be conscious when

I say you see I’m not seeing a separation between myself and and and my soul I know you do but I don’t see a difference between that I’m just trying to understand what it is you because it sounds like you said nefesh living being means the same thing as soul in your theology but that a dead being is dead and still has a living Soul it’s it’s not by my theology it’s by what the Bible has says right so living creature I’m not gonna say right to that but I’m trying to I’m genuinely trying to understand because I don’t it sounds like you’re saying your soul

Doesn’t continue to be in existence but it’s not annihilated and it’s it is and isn’t in the body still when you die can you can you clarify that a little more for me I would say your soul is resting in the grave okay is your soul still attached to your or is is your body the same thing as your soul at that point um I would say again that the soul is resting so I the way I would just simply put it I mean maybe I never thought of it in the in the contrast you’re putting it but because I think again um you have this uh you again your idea is that the soul and the body are

To don’t worry about what I I believe I’m trying to understand what you believe your question is coming from that premise and I think it’s a false premise okay so I don’t know why the question is your soul in your body is is a false premise I just like to keep it simple and keep it sticking with what the Bible says and it says sleep whether it means the soul is sleeping the body is sleeping with the soul the point is is that at death you are asleep and there no consciousness in death but do you see why like it sounds like if you’re saying well it doesn’t really

Matter if it’s the body asleep or the soul asleep but if the body asleep in the grave like what Christians believe and the soul is with God I mean non- Adventists believe like that seems like the exactly the debate we’re having so to just say like you haven’t thought about it I don’t know it’s a weird this is literally the thing we’re trying to sort out isn’t it like what happens to your soul when you die I I I’m just saying the Bible says it sleeps okay but it is in the grave or it’s in the bosom of Abraham or it’s in Hades or the Bible doesn’t explicitly

Say the soul sleeps the Bible just says that you know you are asleep it’s like it’s almost like as if there’s no that’s I I appreciate that distinction because you’re right the Bible never says the soul sleeps correct right but because then the question is clearly the body we can describe the body at rest right is that a fair at least a common ground like someone you lay their body in the grave and the early Christians who believed in the soul still named these places cemeteries like places of rest and they put like rest in peace over it and all that like we can talk about the

Body clearly being at rest is that a fair place of Common Ground sure yeah okay and then the question just becomes is there another component to your being besides what’s in the grave is that is that fair I think um I mean to not again to I just quickly stay with what the scripture says but um um if you wanted to you know but it doesn’t I mean but I think we already agreed you already said the scripture doesn’t say the soul sleeps so God God has God has in reserve the life that will be so in Christ right so as a Believer all believers have their Eternal Destiny

Secured in Christ okay so when it comes to the Eternal Destiny at the resurrection this is what Paul says this is what scripture says that is when we will finally be ra raised and going into eternity right with 100% agree that like the full esy the body either side is the union of body and soul you are brought back to life right I I don’t so when I see soul in the body in the Bible Soul refers simply in more ways than not it’s just you as the person right so the person so how do you apply that to something like Matthew 10:28 like when Jesus says do

Not fear Those Who Kill the body cannot kill the soul rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and Body in Hell correct what does that mean in your view it it’s talking about the Eternal Destiny of the human being right God has control of the entire Eternal Destiny right man can only man can only destroy you physically but it can’t destroy your Eternal Destiny I I don’t understand what not physical what is this other part the word the word Soul there is life and by the way the word Soul there can be destroyed as well which I know you don’t okay wait wait yeah I I agree the soul

Can be destroyed in the sense of Eternal death but kill the body would that’s not what that’s talking about that’s talking let’s let’s look specifically at Matthew 10:28 when Jesus says do not fear those who could kill the body but cannot kill the soul in your theology how can someone kill the body separating the Breath of Life from the corpse the word Soul there means life what does that mean what does that mean so if you go to Luke 12 to go to the parallel text it’ll tell you what that means uh Luke 12 verse uh verse4 I tell you my friends do not fear Those Who

Kill the body and after that have nothing more that they can do okay what more can So What by implication more can be done after your body is killed Eternal damnation I mean it’s literally in the next verse exactly but I warn you whom to fear fear Him who after he has killed has authority to cast into hell yes I tell you to so here it’s it’s it’s obviously talking about the Eternal Destiny right has total control of Eternal Destiny it’s obviously God that’s what he’s saying and and I understand I’m not asking who who is the one we should be fearing I’m asking what is the

Distinction between body and soul in Matthew 10 and how is it possible on an Adventist theology to kill the body without also killing the body body body is the body is the Earthly life and soul in this case in the context of the Eternal destiny which is what compared to what Luke 12 is is bring out okay so it’s inter so it sounds like sometimes you think soul is something other than the Breath of Life Soul means life in this context that’s exactly what the Greek word is implying here same way where says spiritual eternal life or or no in this context yeah it depends on

The context and the text okay I’m I’m just trying to make sure that we understand so God has control has the authority which is what Luke says God has the authority of where the spiritual Destiny can go therefore don’t fear when you’re preaching in my name is what the context of Matthew 10 is about Matthew 10 is not about a it’s not he’s not Matthew 10:28 is not explaining there’s two different parts of the human uh of why does he distinguish Body and Soul if he doesn’t think there’s a distinction between Body and Soul he’s not distinguishing between

Body and soul I just mentioned I mean he literally in the text in Matthew 10:28 uses the term Som and then is it Psy I can’t remember if it’s when you understand the soul as life that’s what that means your life can be destroyed your soul can die you can die like and and then those who are uh cast into hell unfortunately are going to be completely annihilated and that is compl so they’re gonna die not just bodily but Also spiritually is that a fair thing to say ories that’s why called the second death Joe okay no I’m I’m trying to understand because even in second death we would

Say there’s a clear distin between bodily and spiritual death no the second death is a complete total Destruction which is coherent with every other place that it speaks of unquenchable Fire um or you know fire and brimstone it is talking about complete utter destruction that is the imagery of Sodom and Gomorrah which I was getting at earlier that is the imagery of what the wicked shows in all of scriptures there’s many scriptures where it has these imageries whether you call them metaphors or not the metaphors are meant to have a certain picture in your head and is

Complete destruction here in Matthew let’s look at Luke 16 then because I don’t see that complete destruction in Luke 16 well Luke 16 is not even talking about hell okay talking about Hades Sayes Hades and hell are different spiritually Hades and hell are different yes okay so he’s in torment in Hades what is that in comparison say 1623 the rich man is in Hades in torment is that bodily torment or spiritual torment okay so obviously this is a parable right um do you believe why does that matter actually I’m not I’m not 100% sure it is obvious that it’s a

Parable he names Lazarus who is a real life human being who’s also mentioned in John 11 maybe there’s a real Lazarus and a fake Lazarus I I don’t know what obvious about this being a parable um because he names names does it mean it’s not a parable what’s another Parable he names names I believe Ezekiel 33 I believe Jesus gave a parable in Ezekiel 33 you don’t believe Jesus was a speaker in the Old Testament um I think Ezekiel is speaking through prophetic wisdom for the Holy Spirit but uh I’m talking about Jesus’s Parables I mean I don’t think but either way I mean okay

But it’s feels like a digression word of the Lord came to me and it’s son of it’s voting verbatim from from the Lord so you know in Jesus’s parables in the New Testament when Jesus is actually speaking not not speaking of like scriptural inspiration are there any places where he names someone by name in a parable is there what are there any places in Jesus’s Parables which Jesus is clearly speaking in the New Testament where he gives a parable but still names one person by name no but it doesn’t mean that therefore that warrants this to be a real story uh well whether it’s whether

It’s real or Parable I’m not what is the significance of it being a parable in your view um he’s teaching a lesson to the Pharisees about covetousness and about uh treating people fairly okay why why does it matter that it’s a parable and not literal okay so if it’s literal um I mean do you imagine that the Great Gulf between the righteous and the Wicked the righteous can still actually reach the wicked yeah and okay I mean sorry not not between the righteous and the wicked between the righteous and those on Earth between the righteous and the wicked

Abraham says there’s an abyss that cannot pass and you think the righteous and those on Earth and how big is Abraham’s chest it’s spiritual it’s literal but it’s still spiritual that doesn’t make it a parable like it’s not that Abraham is bodily there so let me ask a question then I know you’re asking me the question so let’s just I yeah so I I gave my uh answer of why this is a parable why you save that I have a couple other questions I want to talk about the witch of indor in the witch of indor is that a parable or or do you think that actually happen finish Luke

16 um I would I want to know more about it but I don’t feel like I’m getting a lot of of clear answers of L 16 is following a series of Parables Luke 15 Luke even if it’s a parable why would Jesus give a theologically heretical parable so I think Jesus speaks in the common thought of the day so would he give a parable about like reincarnation or something if people thought reincarnation was real I mean I mean I don’t know he never we don’t have that in scripture but we do have in scripture him using Idols to speak to people like Nebuchadnezzar I don’t think that was an

Idol I think it’s a statue but I mean that gets into again a whole other that’s exactly what I mean what what was that sure okay even if you want to call it an idol he’s not presenting that as good like four Kingdoms in Daniel 2 aren’t a positive right they’re the oppressors of Israel what what I’m saying is that there’s a there’s there’s clear picture where Jesus is speaking in the common thought of the of the people he was speaking to but where does he endorse something radical for the S of and there there are and there and there are early right that that describe that this story

Was a common story being told as well especially amongst the Pharisees because in there in their in and there according to the history they had the rich man going to heaven and the poor man not I mean I don’t know the the history of it but are read saying Jesus just took like one of the existing stories and didn’t I mean I guess here here’s the framework I’m coming from Jesus could tell us the nature of the afterlife say that one more time who can what Who besides Jesus could tell us the nature of the afterlife I mean obviously only Jesus right and so if Jesus hears

People have this totally heretical understanding of the afterlife why in the world would he give a parable that reinforces it and doesn’t correct it so why seems like all all you’ve gained is accumulating wealth is bad a message he’s made over and over again and then in the course of that and they obviously didn’t get he actually pointed them to scripture and said that even if someone rose from the dead they won’t even listen but but let but Jesus also gave Parables about uh you know uh gouging your a did he literally uh endorse that no those are those are exaggerations but

There also weren’t people going around there are examples where Jesus can teach using exaggerations oh absolutely I totally agree that he can teach you to exaggerations and this is one minute left so this is an exaggeration because it sounds like you’re saying this is actually like a false thing Jesus is teaching um I think going into Abraham’s bosom is a big exaggeration I think that’s a representation of what the common mindset was that hey when you died you know remember the Pharisees believed in transmigration of the Soul they almost believe it like basically

Reincar some did right but but he doesn’t teach transmigration of the soul in Luke that what I’m saying is that Jesus is taking a common thing he wasn’t going to go against the grain of thinking at that time at at at this time in Luke 16 he wasn’t going to go against the grain of thinking of the Pharisees okay I think I’ve got time for one last question um do you endorse the SDA website’s belief that this is coming from the third Century from platonic philosophy show me where that reference is on the websit it’s the article what is your soul according to the Bible

Where where’s this at can you yeah sure it’s adventist.org death and Resurrection you already gave that before slash what is your soul according to the Bible with dashes between all those I don’t time I’ll put a link in the chat we’re gonna have to hold off on that question and The Witch of Endor until your next section this is exactly why we’re going to do another round of this now thank you gentlemen this has been a very exciting discussion we’re going to reverse now and it’s back to Matt for questioning your 20 minutes second 20 minute section final one will

Begin when you begin talking sir okay um yeah let’s go to the witch of Endor actually um and let’s go to 1 Samuel 28 if you don’t mind yeah none of all

Um so question uh Joe do you believe that um you do understand that God spoke through prophets obviously right and God spoke and God spoke his will to Israel through uh Samuel I do okay um and Samuel obviously in this chapter is passed away he’s dead um and do you also know and understand that you know God forbade uh any of his people speaking to you know uh you know familiar spirit yep you understand that was a command completely uh God forbade that and do you think Saul knew that okay um do you also believe at this time in Saul’s life that he was uh that

God was not speaking to him anymore I believe it says that explicitly okay so verse six okay so why would why would God uh why would god um bring out why would God so first off why would God work with a familiar Spirit of whom he forbids to do that uh and bring Samuel the real Samuel from the dead well I mean it we’re told that he did the question of why does God do what he’s going to do is a second question no it says it says Samuel said in verse 16 and it also says in in verse 14 Saul knew it was Samuel I mean it it very explicitly over and over affirms that

It’s not a demon pretending to be Samuel it really is Samuel and moreover Samuel uh accurately prophesies the imminent death of Saul which comes true the next day um actually Saul perceived it was it doesn’t say it actually was Samuel it says in verse 14 Saul knew it was Samuel and then verse 15 said then Samuel said to Saul verse 16 and Samuel said to Saul verse 20 says he was filled with fear because of the words of Samuel like the idea that this isn’t really Samuel is is completely contrary to the text repeated uh affirmations that it isn’t fact if you so so you believe that

The um souls go to heaven when they die like did old test here before the the so-called heroine of hell so first Peter 3 explicitly describes this major transition point so if is it okay I don’t know if I can do this on the answering end but can we pull up first Peter 3 sure thing well before you go to First just just repeat what you said again so you said so Samuel was where when he was dead uh he’s in the grave it’s it’s a a little more ambiguous in the Old Testament because there hasn’t been What’s called the heroine of hell so you have the righteous dead and what’s

Sometimes called the bosom of Abraham like in Luke 16 uh and the term shaol is used as a catchall both for the place of the abod of the righteous dead and the wicked dead later in Greek Hades will come to be used to refer specifically to the place of the wicked dead and not the righteous dead but in the earlier hebraic usage it it just is using this kind of catchall so you’re say that in the New Testament Hades or the grave is not the place for the righteous I’m saying Hades specifically Hades and gehenna are used for the place of Torment G was

Not gehenna yeah the fires of gehenna are explicitly mentioned as like as a description of hell right Kenna was a literal place outside of Jerusalem but it’s used in a non-literal way to describe the the fires of damnation uh this is oh is that uh James F let me I’ll find it um in the meantime first Peter 3 oh sorry James James 3 not jameses and it’s used 11 times in the gospels GNA that’s what you’re referring to Pardon gehenna you’re you’re referring to gehenna yeah it is when James describes it as being the the son excuse me the tongue being an

Unrighteous member set on fire by the fires of Hell the word there is literally GNA okay but everywhere else it’s spoken of 11 times in the gospel and Jesus is speaking to Jews yeah it’s like Armageddon like megiddo is a real place and it also has a metaphorical use like if I said something is like the mecca of such and such you would understand the difference between me speaking geographically and metaphorically I think but I wanted if I may answer your your earlier question about 1 Peter 3 uh looking specifically at beginning in verse 18 says that Christ died for sins

Once for all the righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit and numi is is the Greek word there so you see that flesh Spirit distinction in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey so these are not just like demons or something these are human Souls uh Numa spirits who formerly did not obey when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah during the building of the Ark in which a few that is eight person that’s when they were preached to that’s

When they were preached that’s when they were preached to in the days of Noah when the ark Was preparing through Noah no it says in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison Yeah Yeah by the spirit he preached through Noah that’s consistent what Peter said if you go to First Peter it talks about the prophets had the spirit of Christ not saying the prophets didn’t have the spirit of Christ although Noah is never described as a prophet I’m saying verse 19 does not say uh he preached in the days of Noah it says he went and preached to the

Spirits in prison yeah and formerly did not obey rightey even if you say Noah to them before and they formerly did not obey no sorry to interrupt you but this is what we can call you know spiritual death here is that those that are and Disobedience are in spiritual death spiritual death is not the death that God had you know mentioned is there a question okay I’m just saying we’re we’re um yeah so um yeah back to the question of Samuel since you you know we can go into first Peter 3 uh I’m giving that just as an explanation that there’s a clear turning point which is the early

Christians called the heroine of hell and you can see this for instance there’s a second century homy that talks about Christ so you’re Peter 3 the question would be when were these Spirits in prison being preached to yeah Holy Saturday it I mean it’s it’s pretty clear he was put to death in the flesh made alive in the spirit in which notice in which in the spirit he went so already Christ not physically but spiritually look at the transition from 18 to 19 he’s dead in the flesh but alive in the spirit and he went now did he go bodily of course not he’s in the

Tomb bodily he went spiritually and preach to Spirits in prison verse 19 I don’t I don’t agree with your um observation there I I it it I mean how do you deal with Genesis 6 where it’s clearly showing his Spirit not striving with the anti delians um Noah preaching I think it’s fine to say Noah also preached but that’s not first Peter 3 has nothing to do with Noah preaching it doesn’t say a word about Noah preaching it says that they not obey when God’s patience waited in the days of it’s it’s talking about is it not talking about how Jesus Was Made

Alive in by the spirit in in what verse which which part are you talking about Verse 18 is it not talking about Jes how so in other words in which because it’s describing how he was it was describing the work of the holy spirit is it not from Verse 18 it doesn’t say that no it talks about Christ physically being dead and spiritually being alive and how was he made alive because he’s God he doesn’t we don’t believe he leaves his divinity aside like he commends his Spirit into the father’s hand as he as he’s dying so there I mean there’s a probably a

Complicated trinitarian question to that but the last words Christ utters on the cross are father into your hands I commit my spirit and spirit there doesn’t seem to be you know he’s losing personal Identity or his soul is is being destroyed or anything like that his soul is being committed into the hands of the father and he has this mission of redemption and one aspect of the mission of redemption is preaching to the souls who died how did he Proclaim how did he preach to the spirits in what in in in what form did he do that in the spirit right right are you asking how do

Spirits communicate no no that’s not what I’m asking I’m asking in the text how did he preach to the spirits in prison by how by what means uh he went and preached to them how in the SP Numa yeah by the spirit right I know it’s a word between in the spirit and by the spirit I Believe by the spirit is the proper interpretation I know we’re using okay if you want to say who’s Made Alive by this but that changes the the meaning to a place where I think becomes incomprehensible if you say he was put to death in the flesh but made physically alive that just because of

The because how do you then because it does that perfectly is harmony with what you read in First Peter in the beginning of his book I I don’t go to First Peter 1 verse 10 and 11 how do you harmonize you know so how do you not see the harmony between 1 Peter 318 and 19 and 20 to 1 Peter 1: 10-1 if you can put that up miles yeah I think I think there’s a perfect harmony between those the prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation they inquired what person or time was indicated by the spirit of

Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent Glory so here the prophetic Ministry had been pointing towards Christ’s death and glorious Resurrection first Peter but how what we’re we’re seeing is here in verse 10 concerning the Salvation the prophets who prophesied how did they prophesy by the spirit the spirit what was in them the spirit of Christ was in them that’s what if if first Peter 3 had said Noah prophesied to people of old and they didn’t listen that would be true that happens not to be at all what the text disobedient mean what were they

Disobedient to uh the patience of God and his Commandments to them pardon so you’re saying they were dis okay so how are they disobedient and the and in because God had already given his command to people there’s no reference anywhere in Genesis 6 to Noah going on a mission of like prophecy like where does he where does Noah preach anywhere in Genesis 6 it just it doesn’t exist there like you’re you’re adding all that to the biblical text to make this interpretation work but it’s just not

There like listen specifically in in Genesis 6 verse3 God’s message to Noah is I have determined to make an End of All Flesh for the Earth is filled with violence through them notice they’re they’re disobeying they’re in violence even though Noah hasn’t said word one to them in the text behold I will destroy them with uh second Peter was looking for the text second Peter chapter 2 and verse 5 if he did not spare the ancient world but preserved Noah a Herald of righteousness with seven other persons when he brought a preacher of righteousness so

Okay there there’s the connection so you’re saying there’s like an unspoken prophetic Ministry that Noah has that Genesis doesn’t record I I believe that the text in second Peter clears it up that Noah did preach that requir be a literal verbal Proclamation that’s and that’s what first Peter 3 is is is uh commenting on is the fact that in this that through Noah the spirit of Christ through Noah preached to those in the time of the flood while the ark Was preparing while look at first Peter three and and you’ll see that it doesn’t have Noah doing the

Active preaching there even if you want to say that implicit within verse 20 is that Noah had preached and they that was how they rejected that when they formerly didn’t obey they didn’t obey something Noah preached that that Genesis doesn’t tell us about even if you want to imagine that that still doesn’t make the active one going and preaching in verse 19 Noah it’s Jesus you can just look at the way the the sentence reads it it mean it is clearly and explicitly Christ like Jesus preached through all the prophets which is what First Peter 1 says so you think

When it says Christ preached this means this was the unwritten prophetic Ministry of Noah yes okay I mean it it does your case kind of turn on that I know we’re kind of switching I think because of the translation of the word in versus the word uh versus what I think is more proper the word by in verse 18 okay so I just want to point out in this you have to take a non-standard reading of what in the spirit means and a non-standard reading of what verse 20 means about God’s patience for the wicked in the days of Noah and a non-standard reading of who’s doing the preaching to the

Spirits in prison and we still haven’t gotten to where there are spirits in prison so I mean the the number of exegetical things we would have to grant for your interpretation to uh even be plausible I can understand if you said you know the majority reading is X I think y on one thing but we’re talking about four things in three verses where you have to say oh the way it is in every Bible is actually wrong it means a totally different thing and I just think that is a a a very implausible way of doing theology no I think it’s just consistent with the with the teaching of

Scripture on the but what teach if you’re teaching of scripture is that everyone is misreading all of these critical verses and and even interpreting them and mistranslating them the fact that Jesus was in the grave he didn’t go anywhere until until the uh first until Sunday until Resurrection morning okay so I want to make sure that that part is clear because I think this is why this really matters that you cannot have Jesus going or doing anything in verse 19 right because he is put to Death In the Flesh so your your timing is off on that the

Timing that Jesus did this was during the time of the flood when the arcs were pring that’s literally what it says uh it says he went and preached in the timing of the flood or it says they former did not obey notice that word formerly if verse 19 is about the days of Noah then you wouldn’t say you wouldn’t refer to the next event their disobedience is happening formerly because it would happen contemporaneously like if I’ve got a play said in the 1870s and there’s an event in the 1870s I wouldn’t say formerly in 1870 such and such because we would already be in 1870 so verse 19

Is already back in Genesis 6 you wouldn’t be using the word formerly to describe the Disobedience of the people in the days of Noah because they would already be in the days of Noah in verse 19 if that was a plausible

Reading yeah I I don’t think the explanation you gave really distorts The View that is being portrayed here in the text so you think this is really just a text about how people disobeyed Noah so in which he went by the spirit right and proclaimed or preached to the spirits in prison because they form Jesus Jesus jesuses Jesus Through Noah Jesus Through the prophets by the spirit he preached through the prophets by the spirit he preached through Noah at the time I want I want to make sure that we understand we’re looking at 18 to 20 as a paropy and it says Christ also died

For sins once for all the righteous for the unrighteous but that we’re supp to expect halfway through it has a digression about Noah preached to people back in Genesis at the time that at the time when this happened they didn’t obey what time was this getting specific when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah while the art I noticed you skipped the formerly that I just said the word forly just literally is pointing back to that time right at that time right uh you know other versions for time don’t mean the same thing they they don’t like those kind of mean opposite

Things like I said you and I debated formerly versus you and I are debating at this time word for just means in the time past right we’re sometime in the past disobedient that’s literally what the rendering is okay I mean so again so Jesus went by the Spirit uh and he speaking again about the spirit’s the quality of the spirit right he’s speaking about the spirit that made Jesus alive the same spirit that Jesus through that Spirit went and preached to those in prison who in the time past formally right sometime in the past formally did not disobey

What kind of past is he talking about what kind of people is he talking about what part is he bringing this up to when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared which in a few that is eight persons were brought safely through the water and he’s contrasting that with baptism so so to to be clear in this uh reinterpretation of First Peter when is Noah’s prophetic Ministry when when is Noah’s prophetic Ministry compared to the building of the Ark so I say that one time when is what when is Noah’s prophetic Ministry in relationship to

The building of the Ark what do you mean when is his prophetic Ministry did he preach to them before he built the ark or did he preach to them while he’s building the ark or or what I I mean you’ve got a timeline that that imagin know as a preacher and apparently went out preaching because uh the word heral could like it says here while the ark was beinged okay so do we know what he preached do we know any of that so let me ask you a question right because I think the time one minute okay where do you else do you see a clear picture of Jesus going anywhere in between his

Death and Resurrection St Paul says that to say he ascended we have to say he first descended that’s not a reference to the Grave which based on the fact that he’s buried in a cave um was literally not a physical descent this is a a realm a a spiritual descent yeah that that’s not a clear Ephesians I’m sorry not not Ephesians 4 hang on I’m sorry let

Me yeah it’s Ephesians 4:9 I think in saying he ascended what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth he who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens that he might fill all things and time great work gentlemen all right we will now reverse Joe for your final 20 minutes of cross examination to ask Matt questions you can keep it sort of this open format you guys have been doing I know it’s sometimes hard to restrict it to only asking questions and not be somewhat conversational the time will begin when

You start talking sir okay uh thanks and let’s maybe stick with the theme of Holy Saturday for a minute while while we’re here so in your view what happens to Jesus when he dies what I mean what happens because I guess do you have the view that he has a human soul or I maybe maybe I’m not even using the right terms he just has the Breath of God within him what was your question because I what what happens to Jesus when he dies on the cross like where like obviously bodily we can talk about him as being in the grave is that it does he can we talk

About Jesus still existing um because if you said the soul is the person and the soul is the union of breath and body if Jesus’s breath isn’t in his body is Jesus non-existent no he was not living at that time he was dead like the Bible says he died I want to know what you think it means when when it says dead because we both agree that Jesus is dead but I think it means every I think it means just like it says in scripture everywhere else he was resting in the grave okay so bodily he’s in the grave is that it he doesn’t have any other presence anywhere

Else his presence was in the grave that was true that’s where he was maybe you’re answering my question I can’t tell if you are I’m asking if he had any presence outside of the Grave so telling me that he’s also in the grave doesn’t tell me if he also I’m not gonna get into like the intricacy between the Divinity and Humanity we do know that that we do know that he humbled himself and became uh a human and as a human he died um other than that he rested in the grave that’s all we’re told I don’t want to speak for you it sounds like you’re sort of nodding to

The fact that you don’t think he’s Divine at this point is that right no that’s not he was always even while he was a human he he he he clothed is he holding the cosmos in in being while all of this is happening well don’t forget too there’s also the father and the spirit that are also yeah but I’m asking specifically is the second person of the the Trinity or God the son or whatever you want to call him is he sustaining the universe and being again all we’re told in terms of his Humanity he was in the grave and he rested in the grave okay so came out on then he came

Back out on Sunday I’m not going to get into the you know intricacies of his divinity because that’s not the the purpose of this topic is does death does the bible teach death is asleep and we see Jesus sleeping in the grave yeah so if if we mean bodily sleep like if we mean that the body lies in the grave I think that’s an uncontroversial I think that’s a point AG I don’t see this big distinction between bodily it’s as much as you bring it up I don’t see the scripture really emphasizing that when it comes to okay so you don’t see anything about spirits

Being in prison or anything like that like I said that’s the prison House of sin and and and contextually in 1 Peter 3:18 verse 19 explains what that means and that means being disobedient like I was saying before like I was saying before it’s about being spiritually dead they were spiritually dead by being disobedient that’s why in Ephesians 2 it talks about that you know we were dead in trespasses and sin let’s let’s assume that that interpretation for a about how does that make sense of First Peter 3 so it’s saying Christ died for sins once for all he died in the

Body on that Joe your timing is saying that he did that after he died on the cross what is the point of Peter’s sentence I mean whe whether you think it’s chronological or not about the work of the Holy Spirit and how powerful that Holy Spirit was and that it preached through the anti delians through Noah and we know Noah preached that’s what second Peter says okay your argument said that there’s progressive revelation so now if you go to the next book second Peter 2 it kind of It kind of sheds light that Noah did preach and that’s how you can understand this passage very

Clearly it uses the word Herald it’s a word not used anywhere else in the New Testament and you think that means a literal verbal preaching inspired by the Holy Spirit not not the act of making the ark According to second Peter 2 Noah is a preacher of righteousness according to Herald of righteousness is is what it says I’m I’m going with the RSV because on the Adventist website they said to use a literal translation and gave this one as an example of one to use you can find one that says preacher but the word used there is only it’s a it’s the only

Time it’s used in the New Testament it’s not the word for preacher okay I okay wait what are you talking about in second Peter 2 yeah like there is a a word for preacher used uh in other places for instance in 1 Timothy 2 when St Paul says he was appointed a preacher an apostle uh in second Timothy 1 when he says heral the preer I mean it sounds like they’re yeah a Herald yeah so you’re you’re assuming that means like a verbal Ministry not the act of building the ark I mean I think it include both okay so in First Peter 3 why is he bringing up that God wants preached by Noah in

The context of Jesus dying and you know being alive in this Spirit or Alive by the spirit I think he’s transitioning into baptism which he does later on and he’s working uh on the work of the spirit okay can you help me see the kind of thematic like so he’s just changing topics kind of mid sentence uh no he’s speaking of the spirit preaching through Jesus during the time when the ark was being prepared and then he transitions into the water and then he brings in baptism right there in verse 21 so I definitely see the connection between the Waters of the

Flood and the baptismal Waters I’m I’m with you on that and I I see how he says you know baptism which corresponds this now saves you you know I believe me as a Catholic we like Hammer people with first Peter 3:21 the question I’ve got is if this doesn’t have anything to do with Holy Saturday or like what happens between when Christ dies and rises again why is this what Peter ising bringing up at this moment is it just to find a way to talk about baptism like I mean it seems like you’re saying that he changes the topic he’s saying Christ died and he rose and also

Noah once preached to some people when he built the ark and baptism now saves you and I I don’t know how that it’s like it seems almost like you’re saying Peter got distracted no in context he’s talking about uh having a good conscience which is what it mentions in verse 16 right it’s better to suffer to do good in verse 17 uh you know than to suffer for doing evil um Christ suffered as well righteous for the unrighteous he’s bringing out his sufferings that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh but then Was Made Alive in the spirit and then he’s going to this

Parenthetical thing to go back into what he was mentioning ah I see so it is it is kind of a parenthe so you can’t read it as flowing logically you have to read it as a parenthetical kind of a side you’re reading the whole chapter in context yeah we have to make sure we’re keeping in context of what he just mentioned before because he brings up this he brings up the topic again let’s if if we may jump back to the witch of Endor um what evidence do you have from the text like again just looking at the text itself that this wasn’t Saul or excuse me wasn’t

Samuel um so the first off if it’s a witch number one um I don’t believe that witches are going I don’t think God’s going to work with witches or speak through witches or work through witches um to you know bring up uh to bring up a uh you know to bring up the dead that’s definitely not that’s definitely against that’s the contradictory to his own testimony um according to even Isaiah 8 you know in the context of necromancy and Witchcraft you know to the law to the testimony if they don’t speak according to this word there’s no light in them so there’s no light in this

Witch at all um God God won’t work through her at all no no not at all when Samuel gives a prophecy especially with Saul because longer God’s no longer communicating with Saul um okay when when Samuel gives a prophecy beginning in uh verse 15 when he describes the situation uh Saul describes the situation of the Philistines and all this and then Samuel rebukes him for turning to him you’re saying that’s actually the like what the witch or the demon or something that’s telling him not to turn to Demons or you know that the devil can transform himself to an angel of Light that’s

Definitely what would be more consistent with what’s happening here okay so this is actually the devil just to make sure I’m understanding I don’t want to put words in your mouth perhaps I said the word perhaps right I’m wondering how you read the passage because if it’s Samuel I think we can agree he’s spiritually aware of what’s going on so You’ have to say this can’t really be Samuel it has to be something or someone else a demon the devil a I don’t know maybe a ghost or something well also she also references that she saw Gods coming out from uh

From the ground you know um again you think so do you think this is the work of the Lord I think he gives a prophecy so let’s Analyze That prophecy um Can the devil give prophecies about the future that that come true because this is one of the marks of a true Prophet compared to a false one right well all we can deduce is that we knew that the spirit of the Lord departed from SE and I believe uh the evil spirit went into him so I think this I think I think the devil or the demons can accurately predict that what was going to happen to him for not you’re saying the demons can

Accurately predict the future so could a false prophet then make predictions about the future um I’m not saying wait I’m not saying a false prophet made predictions about the future what I’m saying is that so 1 Samuel 28 verse 19 yeah I think I think that I think that’s that’s 100% I think that Satan can deduce on or his demons can deduce what would happen to soul for dis obing the Lord knowing that he was a king of high Authority um knowing the thing that he knew he knew way better he had uh great resp you think just a probabilistic kind of guess or you think

It’s an actual do you think it’s a prophecy or just a guess no separation from God brings death yes and so specifically in 1 Samuel 28 verse 19 when hang on just just make sure I’m asking the question in 1st Samuel 28 vers 19 somebody and the text says it’s Samuel but you say it’s not somebody says the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me so the death of Samuel of Saul excuse me and his sons is predicted to the day as is the defeat of Israel’s armies and I don’t know who

Has the spiritual power to do that but from God and I guess I’m asking you how is that not the ual biblical test we’re supposed to use for separating a a true from a false prophet if there are predictions about the future the next day so I mean it’s not a hard prophecy to to give and say that this is what’s going to happen I mean soul I think I actually Mis heard what you said could you say that again sa Saul was going to fight the next day so it wasn’t hard for him to give that prophecy okay so it’s just a guess I think I I I I think um without getting too much into this topic

Of you know how much the Satan knows and the demons know but I think they know enough to be able to accurately uh you know they they see they they can see the uh the the Silver Lining here in other words go back to Deuteronomy 18 20-22 what’s that let’s go to Deuteronomy 18 20 to 22 so in Deuteronomy 18 there is this question where if you say in your heart how may we know the word which the Lord has not spoken and we’re told when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord if the word does not come to pass or come true that is a word which the Lord

Has not spoken the prophet has spoken it presumptuously you need not be afraid of him so it doesn’t mean a it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t mean that just because it came true it’s not a false prophet if you go to verse 20 um if the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods the same Prophet shall die doesn’t mean that the prophet can’t say anything that’s true or that just because it said it was true it’s from God okay so you think like even if you have accurate

Prophecies about events in the future that could still be the devil how does the devil have that kind of knowledge about the future in in this view I don’t know one day we’ll find out but all we know is that it’s clearly seen here that Saul departed from God he completely left God we know that death is a we you know it’s not like it’s not like it wasn’t uh known on what was happening when you did these things I mean look what happened in the wilderness when they disobeyed the Lord I mean they were instantly killed uh some people were um Saul being in the

Position that he was in 100% being in the Rebellion that he was in and again the spirit of God departed from from Saul and an evil spirit took over him so this can be something that’s easily shown as hey this is what happens when you disobey God and you give yourself out to him it’s not that God You can predict future or which which thing happens I mean I I couldn’t tell you oh you’re gonna die tomorrow these are these are wicked listen what does Ephesians 6 tell us right we want to wrestle not with flesh and blood principalities powers and wicked Jonathan because it’s not just

It’s not just Saul who dies his sons also die so is that just another lucky guess no I think that’s also reflective of them departing from God as well so you think you think Jonathan departed from God no I’m saying a result of Sauls departing from God okay I think that’s what it is so if this is a demon or if it is the devil here here why does ver refer if you go to job right I mean I guess you’re asking the questions but I’m trying to answer you as well go ahead I didn’t hear what you were saying there I apologize yeah I was saying in in in job

You see you clearly see a conversation between God and Satan and you clearly see that God allows Satan to do certain things um I mean is so Satan knew that he was going to kill job’s kids he knew he was going to destroy he knew what he was going to do it’s it’s not really an impressive prediction if I know tomorrow I’m gonna have Mexican food for lunch like it’s an impressive prediction if I know like what’s going to happen to somebody else tomorrow uh you know that knowing what he’s gonna do himself in this situation in this situation in this situation where Saul Saul is going to a

Familiar Spirit right uh at that point Satan is is who knows what conversation if there was a conversation because it seems like Satan was able to converse with God at least uh you know at least we see in job one I I could I could if you say I see biblical support for Satan conversing with God do we have biblical support for God giving Satan privileged knowledge about the future it’s not privileged knowledge about the future he can just tell them hey take his life okay yeah he could does it does it say that in the text or does it say the Lord will give Israel into the hand of

The Philistines say that in the text but there there’s clear it’s clearly showing that this Witch of which God has commanded that is people not go and seek after familiar spirits we clearly know that Saul was not in the will of God there and God was not working through that Spirit to speak to Saul how does God speak he speaks through speaks to prophets this is nothing but a strong okay so if so you’re saying I want to make sure I’m getting you you’re saying this is a a demon or the devil is that is that fair those are the only two possibilities you seem to think it could

Be could be a demon or a fallen angel or or or the Devil Himself yes I don’t know the difference between a fallen angel and a demon but I that’s that’s fine why then does the text repeatedly refer to it as Samuel if if instead we’re supposed to know it’s the devil because it’s the way that he came because he named himself as Samuel that’s why but notice says when the woman saw Samuel not when the woman saw someone posing as Samuel and then it says uh and Saul knew it was Samuel in verse 14 it seems to go out of its way in the text to stress this is really

Samuel why would the biblical author do that if we’re supposed to know and Saul falsely thought it was Samuel but it wasn’t like why does the bible tells it is Samuel if it isn’t well first of off the the knowledge is coming from Saul and Saul was not in his right mind so I wouldn’t trust that and other by the way that other trans the the word that’s there for new is also can to be perceived okay what about in verse 15 when it says Samuel said to Saul or or verse 16 it’s just being consistent with what the story is saying it’s not saying that it was actually him okay so it’s

Not really it does it doesn’t mean that it actually is Samuel got it um okay I think I started to asking this question I think we got cut off by time and I hope that doesn’t happen again uh we there was that I sent you the link in the in the chat in the SDA website it says ancient philosophy is full of references of the immortality of the soul and then a little bit later it says this part of Greek philosophy was able to influence Christian Traditions as well it is thought that this process of belief infiltration started around the third Century ad as platonic philosophy

Popped up in Christian teachings about the soul is that your own view that you don’t find belief in uh the immortality of the Soul prior to the 200s I believe that yeah around the second to third century is when this this when this uh became popular adopted because what about in ancient Jewish belief before the time of Christ so I don’t know if you’ve got uh if you’ve got like the RSV C uh you can get the revised standard version that has the books that aren’t in Protestant Bibles but if you pull up wisdom chapter 3 maybe we could take a look at that and you could you could see

How to harmonize that sorry miles I’m making you uh kind of the mediator of the Pope um what did you want brought up is there wisdom three if you can pull that up you’ll have to use like the rsvce because it’s not in this first off there was no Christian back in those days uh Joe number one okay so it’s yeah we’re back in the pre-christian time but if if the claim is that this didn’t enter Christianity didn’t you know because I know you had so here’s a thing too you had you were on with miles’s show about eight months ago where both he led you misled you to say and falsely say that

Minute that Ellen White says that the immortality of the Soul was invented by the Catholic church he never once said that there’s not a single quote that supports that and nor in history supports it the immortality of the Soul existed in Genesis 3 you shall not surely die that’s when it started okay so you think immortality is that’s in contrast to what God meant when he said you will die which is meaning you will not live forever you will not have immortality so is it fair to hang on we’re about turn out of time let me just ask the question if I may in wisdom three is it

Fair to say the text as presented right there is teaching the immortality of the Soul whether you agree or disagree with it isn’t this at least clear evidence of a Jewish belief in immortality of the Soul prior to the coming of Christ I think there’s also support of of saying that there’s conditional immortality as well including ananus who you like to quote he also believed in conditional immortality he unfortunately had the platonic idea of soul and body unfortunately but he also beli is only is not inherent by human nature it’s only a gift by God and that

Gift is by God is on condition of acceptance of Jesus Christ by faith that’s what the Bible says all right gentlemen thank you for the Lively discussion this was excellent we are going to transition now into your 8 Minute closings Joe you will go first on these and Matt will go second your time will begin sir when you begin speaking all right well first of all thank you again uh to Matt thank you to miles for kind of moderating this and I I think it’s been a helpful I I mean honestly as someone who does not come from an Adventist background it’s been

Helpful to me to kind of hear you know because there’s plenty of arguments you hear in your mind you think how in the world would someone answer that and then you you kind of hear them we haven’t even done much more than really scratching the surface of this you know we talked a little bit about Holy Saturday but you’ve got a passage that Jesus very clearly says to the thief on the cross today truly I say to you today you’ll be with me in Paradise Luke 23:43 and I know uh that the standard Adventist response to that is oh he just means well today I’ll tell you but that

I don’t think holds up with a with a natural reading of the text and I think as you saw in the cross examination to make the Adventist reading of the text work you have to assume that when it says he’s alive you have to rrate in the spirit vers by the spirit you have to retranslate in first Peter three what it means that Christ is going to preach to the souls in prison isn’t actually in a chronological sequence of what he’s talking about with the death and resurrection of Christ he’s actually taking a several thousand year digression back to the time of Noah I

Think all of those things taken together you’d have to say okay these are not natural readings of the text you cannot just say oh I’m just taking what the Bible says and then take one after another after another wild reinterpretations of the biblical text in ways that nobody’s ever read them until the 19th century at the dawn of adventism those things are just kind of these forced ways of making it fit the biblical data as I say we really are just scratching the surface with all this you’ve already seen the witch of indor repeatedly we told it’s Samuel to

Be an Adventist you have to say it’s not really Samuel because if it is and he knows the future that shows he’s actually not like with his soul just asleep he’s actually conscious he’s able to know things he’s even able to prophesy about the future so we have to say actually it was a demon scolding him and telling the future accurately things that demons aren’t famously uh known for doing or take any of the other passages we didn’t even have time to get to for instance the souls under the altar in the Book of Revelation uh that are crying out for justice I guess we could

Say maybe that’s all just a metaphor just like Lazarus and the rich man we can wave away all of the explicit Revelation about the nature of the afterlife and say maybe it’s all just an image maybe it’s all just non-literal kind of language but we’re still left with some pretty core theological problems you have Jesus at the moment of his death saying father into thy hands commit my spirit right like right after telling the man he’ll be with him today in Paradise right before going to preach to the spirits in prison all of that points to a clear distinction between

Soul and body a distinction between soul and body that is referenced numerous times throughout the New Testament for instance the distinction between killing the body and killing the soul so I would say that on the basis of this the most natural reading is to say there is an actual distinction and unlike the body which will naturally die whether you’re righteous or unrighteous your body will die and but for an incredible Miracle right you’re going to decay in the grave that is the nature of a body that is not the nature of a spirit and so taking the human soul in

The sense used of spirit in the same way we understand other Spirits Angels demons the Holy Spirit these are all references to sensient beings with intellect with will that actually have personhood they’re not just immaterial breath they actually even when the Holy Spirit is described his breath we’re also told that he preaches he does all these things so even the reference to the spirit as breath for instance in John 3 doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit isn’t still personal very clearly uh you have for instance in Acts 1:16 when we’re told Brethren the scripture has to be

Fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand so the holy spirit is an asan he’s speaking and this is the nature of spirit this isn’t something coming from Greek philosophy this isn’t something entering Christianity in the 200s this is something coming from scripture itself whether you accept or reject books like wisdom uh and you have these kind of passages in these books that were accepted by many of the early Christians and uh were clearly not coming from Greek philosophy like wisdom chapter 3 like second mbes 15 where you see two those who previous been departed

Speak to somebody in a dream and again know the Future these things that look for all the world to be very clear indications that your soul survives death now either in Union with God what we call eternal life or it survives death out of Union with God which we call Eternal death notice if you understand that you can harmonize all the biblical evidence I haven’t needed to do any exegetical backflips I haven’t needed to say oh that word that everybody translates this way you have have to take it this other way I haven’t had to do any of those things throughout

This debate for the simple reason that all I’m proclaiming here is the biblical doctrine of the relationship of body and soul and I’ll concede as I did at the outset I’ll do it again that if all you had was Genesis say or all you had was just the Torah there might be some confusion about that this is something that is progressively revealed and you see that even in Acts of the Apostles we’re told the Sadducees who only have the first five books disagree about the nature of the Resurrection with the Pharisees who have more so we would expect that once you look outside of

Just Genesis 2:7 you’re going to get a fuller more complete picture of the Union of body and soul and sure enough we find just that so what happens when you die bodily you go into the grave spiritually if you’re in Union with God you go to be in Union with God if you’re not in Union with God you go to a place of everlasting torment at the last day you’ll be reunited with your body for eternal glory or Eternal punishment every part of what I’ve just told you is clearly laid out in scripture and we don’t have to do exegetical back flips to get there so there’s a lot of other

Stuff I’d kind of hope to get through I I worried we’d have too much time it turned out we were just scratching the surface but I’m once again thankful uh for I think a good and thorough debate although not as thorough as I’m sure we both would like and yeah I guess I look forward to reading your comments all right God bless guys all right thank you for that Joe Matt your closing statement is up you will have eight minutes uninterrupted to close us out here your time will start when you begin speaking sir all right thank you again Joe for this uh really

Important discussion uh on how your understanding of the nature of men the nature of the Soul um although we didn’t get too much detail into it we did go on to these um exceptional passages um I do believe that the Bible is consistent all throughout uh both Old Testament through the New Testament and I think that like you said um there is a progressive revelation but the progressive re Revelation and I will quote you on that and I appreciate you quoted that in the beginning uh does not contradict the previous Revelation um so what we see in the

Bible from the beginning is going to be consistent all throughout um in the very beginning we know that immortality was taken away uh from human beings God had guarded kicked man out of the Garden of Eden uh and specifically and explicitly for the reason that he may live forever when God said that man will die as a result of eating the fruit he wasn’t talking about merely a spiritual death and by the way we still haven’t defined that spiritual death is defined in the Bible as just someone who’s in sin someone who’s in active Disobedience Rebellion against God which they were in

Um the death that God was speaking about was immortality the Bible says by the way speaking on that which I don’t understand how anybody can be confused as a believer in the Bible on immortality that we are not naturally Immortal that God Alone according to 1 Timothy 6 ver1 15 and 16 is Immortal you and I are subject to death we are mortal that’s why Paul repeatedly says in 1 Corinthians 15 that this mortality must put on immortality immortality is to be sought according to Romans 2:7 it says who those of us who by patience and well-doing seek immortality that God

Will give eternal life to those who do that again Jesus Christ when he abolished death he brought life and immortality to light through the gospel and the gospel was existing all the way from Genesis until Revelation this is the testimony of scripture this is the biblical uh picture that we see is that immortality is on condition on belief in Jesus Christ and Faith through him in his blood and what he’s done for us and throughout the Bible death is often described metaphorically as asleep it is consistent everywhere we didn’t get to go through all the different texts as

Well that uh explained it but we can go to and consider Ecclesiastes chapter 9 verse 5-6 which states for the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing right the dead know nothing they have no further reward and their name is even forgotten their love their hate their jealousy have long since vanished if Souls continue beyond death then how do you harmonize that there is no love there is no hate there is no jealousy right they never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun outside obviously of the resurrection of Christ if their life is

Hid with him again the unconscious state of the Dead is clearly shown again and we didn’t go to these texts uh in John 11 where Jesus speaks about Lazarus we mentioned that earlier in my opening statement again Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 verse 13 to 14 again uh all believing all of the Believers all the apostles believe that death was asleep and that sleep would be awakened according to Daniel 12 at the resurrection many multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake some to everlasting life and others to shame and everlasting contempt so again this consistent

Imagery throughout scripture conas both the nature of death and the hope that is beyond it which is the resurrection that is the connection uh we don’t go into an intermediate state where we await either you know uh eternally burning forever and ever which the Bible does not support there are many places in Scripture that talk about the destiny of the wicked in Psalms and uh and every and other plac in the Old Testament Malachi and job um you know the wicked are going to be consumed they’re going to be no more they’re going to vanish like smoke they’re going

To be destroyed and cut off there is no natural immortality eternal life is given to the righteous eternal life is given to the obedient eternal life is given to those who given their lives to Christ who’ve accepted him the unsaved won’t get the benefit of eternal life even if that means in punishing in punishing um again we go into uh other New Testament texts um again that clearly portray this idea of a resurrection in order to have life John chap 5 verse 28- 29 do not be amazed at this for a time is coming when all who are in their graves this is not just

Talking about bodies will hear his voice and come out if the soul is the part that animates the body of which I believe job purports then how do you harmonize the fact that they don’t praise the Lord in the grave the soul is the part that supposedly is the one that animates the human body and the body is just a shell for the soul then how is it that they’re hearing the voice where they if they’re hearing his voice aren’t they with him already no they’re hearing their voice where from the grave and they will come out Jesus Will awaken all the Believers with his voice at that

Time when he comes back again this promise of Awakening affirms that death is asleep from which Christ himself will awaken his people in conclusion scripture uh consistently portrays this death is asleep it’s an unconscious temporary State until the resurrection at Christ’s return uh this understanding magnifies the hope that we have in Jesus who conquered death and offers eternal life to all who believe in him um again there are many other texts that we could have went through and many discussions we can have there’s many different angles on this but it is

Clear once again that the Bible metaphorically puts death as asleep awaiting the resurrection and that is how the Bible and both Old Testament and New Testament both describe it in equal parts um the texts that seemingly to be contradictory are not real contradictions or counterarguments at all I think they’re just Mis understood because we’re believing something when we’re coming into the text we have this idea already so we read these things into the text without carefully looking at the context or the original intent of where um uh of which they’re laid so

I hope this was a great discussion for everybody listening um I know that uh you know time uh escapes us and during the Q&A there’s been a lot of conversation and a lot of uh but I’m looking forward to seeing the comments and I’m looking forward to answering any of the questions after and Joe it was a pleasure uh to discuss with you miles thank you so much for the platform um maybe we’ll do this again we’ll see all right and that will close things out excellent debate G I greatly appreciate the willingness of both of you to come on and discuss and may

Christ richly uh bless all of you the viewers in the grace and peace won by him and his vicarious death on the cross for Sinners until next time God bless