Adventism On Trial: Is the Investigative Judgment Biblical?

And we are live. Uh thank you for being here and an especially warm welcome if this is your first time with us, Adventist or otherwise. So we are back with another open discussion. Really looking forward to it. Question of the night, thesis for the night. Is the 7th Adventist doctrine of the investigative judgment biblical? That is the question in focus tonight. Is the seventh adventist doctrine of the investigative judgment biblical? But before we bring in our guests, I want to remind you all that Answering Adventism is a viewerup supported effort. If you like what we are doing

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Said, gentlemen, thank you both for being here. Joel, I will start with you for those that do not know. Let people know who you are and then Sam, I’ll let you do the same. All right. Uh uh Miles, do you hear me? Yes. Okay, great. So, I’m Joel Da. I’m from the Netherlands. I am 32 years old and I have been grown up within Adventism and I think the last 12 years I really emerged myself into the study of uh theology but also Adventist doctrines because I wanted to really know what I am up to what I need to believe especially in this world where we have a

Secular worldview predominantly uh reigning. So um by God’s grace I uh I studied myself through the Bible and also to the Adventist doctrines in especially with regards to salvation and um here I am to um yes to share what I think is the biblical truth and why I do think that Adventism is indeed uh in many ways um yes according what the Bible says. So yeah. Great. Well thank you for being here Sam. whatever you would like to share as well for people who may not know or be familiar with who you are. Well, I’m probably one of their favorite heretics, right?

Possibly. Um, yeah, I’m equally disliked by all various groups, whether Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons or Adventists or Protestants. Even Catholics don’t like me. But yeah, by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, you know my story, Miles. I’ve been on a journey. My faith to Christ started in the 90s and I’ve studied and I was a staunch Calvinist for a while. But as I study more and I seek the spirit more, one of my prayers is the spirit perfects my theology and perfects my obedience and holiness. So destroy all false teaching error in me and give me the grace to be humble and

Teachable to see where I’m mistaken and accept correction and accept the fullness of the truth even if it makes me unpopular. So as people know, I’m in the Catholic Church which I know a lot of people don’t like but that’s where my journey has brought me. So we trust the Lord Jesus to bring us into the fullness and have mercy on us. So I do believe the Lord meets you where you’re at and he sees what you know and he takes that in consideration and he’s a God of infinite mercy. If you know the truth and resist it, it’s one thing but if you are not fully aware of what the fullness

Of the truth is, I believe the Lord Jesus is a merciful God and he has compassion. So I pray that for all of us. Amen. So a quick rundown for the audience to let everyone know the agenda for the night. I will be neutally moderating like I usually do in these discussions. I will kick things off tonight by reading the entirety of the Seventh Day Adventist fundamental belief number 24 on the sanctuary and the investigative judgment. This will be followed by an hour and a half of back and forth discussion between both Sam and Joel over the thesis question. I will only

Step in if things get out of hand or off track, which I do not anticipate. After the half, hour and a half, each individual will then have a fivem minute closing to wrap up their thoughts uninterrupted. Gentlemen, final point. When you hear this, that will indicate that there is one minute left. So, in the open dialogue as well as your closing statements. All right. If you hear it a second time, that means time is up. Sometimes when you’re talking and that sound goes off, it’s easy for you to not hear it. So, if I abruptly cut you off, I’m not trying to

Do so. I’m just going to let you know, hey, that the time is up. But feel free to finish your thought if you’re in the middle of one and I do that. Any questions? Yeah, I kind of feel bad. I’m old enough to be his dad. How old are you, Miles? Um, old enough because I’m wondering if I’m old enough to use that because he said he’s 32. I’m 52. That sucks. I’m getting old, man. You You could be You You could be. We’ll We’ll say that. I’ll leave it there. You guys suck, man. But anyway, you got Merc is just a number, but it’s bold number. Yeah. Well, if it makes you feel any better,

Sam, I’m starting to wear hats more and more. That’s kind of indicative of my age. Um, so I need to maybe just let it go. But with that said, let’s read the entirety of the fundamental belief so the audience uh understands what it is that we are discussing tonight. It reads, quote, “There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it, Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of his atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross.” At his ascension, he was inaugurated as our great high priest

And began his intercessory ministry which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844 at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, he entered the second and last phase of his atoning ministry which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the day of atonement. In that typical service, the sanctuary was

Cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices. But the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore in him are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus and in him therefore are ready for translation into his everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of

God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the second advent. Close quote. And then you see the proof text that they provide for their position. So to kick off the discussion, Joel, we will let you break the ice on the hour and a half. You can present your first biblical argument to Sam that you believe proves the investigative judgment is a biblical doctrine. The time will begin when you begin speaking,

Sir. All right. Uh thank you very much, Amal. Um so when it comes to the this doctrine, I would like to start with um the tradition wherein we stand as Adventists. We stand in the tradition of Jacob’s Arminius and he maintained the idea of Prinian grace. Profenian grace involves the idea that God gave every human creature free will. So if there is free will that is the basis of the idea of having a judgment. You cannot have a judgment uh in the culinic sense often where someone’s life is determined if you already know to say that everything was determined beforehand. So that’s

Very important. We stand in that tradition. Now when it comes to justification by faith, according to the Bible, we receive eternal life, the hope of eternal life already at our initial justification. So give let me give an example. Romans 5:21, John 5:4, Titus 3, they maintain the idea when we’re justified, we receive eternal life. However, when it comes to the reception of eternal life, the Bible also makes clear there are two things needed. Not only the ticket, which is justification, but we also need the right fitness. Looking at Luke chapter

9, Jesus himself said, “The one who put his hand on the plow.” Do you hear me? Hello. Hello. Did you Miles, did you mute my mic? You’re speaking too fast and slow down a bit. You said you need two things because I know you’re not here to preach. You want to engage. So, we’re going to try to engage. So, you need two things. What was the two things you need? Because John 5:24 without looking at the context or Titus 3. Yeah. Which which which first did you mention? Which one did you mention? Two things because we’re talking about the investigative judgment. So, we want to

Yes. Two things. We need the justification that is the put righteousness but we also need fitness in terms of holiness. Holiness of heart fitness only. How does that tie in? I want you to show me the investigative judgment and how it convened in 1844 because this discussion you’re having there. I don’t think anyone who is not Calvinist would have an issue with what you’re talking about. What the debate here if you see the title of the debate is the investigative judgment which you say took place in 1844 where Jesus enters into a second phase. So that’s

The title. I’d like you to focus on that. What’s the scriptural support for that? Okay. So uh what I wanted to just give me those five minutes and then I I I’m making my case. So I just um we need fitness and that fitness is indicated by our work. So in looking at Romans chapter 2 verse 5 up to verse 7 we see that Paul says there eternal life is given to those who have the right mind orientation heart but then he says that is accordance to perseverance and good works. And then in verse five, still looking at the context, Paul says there that God will judge everyone

According to his works. He will grant eternal life according to the works. So we see here that works are indication of what lives in the heart and the heart is the final precondition for eternal life. Now, now comes it. If works are the indication that already somehow implies that there is an investigation going. We can look at some biblical verses later on. But the concept that works are not the firmmost the foremost thing but they are indication of what lives in the heart and that we are judged according to our works already shows oh something

Is going on of a trial. Now when it comes to an investigative judgment, I um I already maintained it a couple of times in other uh interviews. We have to look at a judgment order in the Bible. So you will always see there is a judgment before the second coming oh so you have so let me just let me just give the two faces and I will give you the Bible verses. So you will see that God the father is the judge before the second coming where it will be determined he will determine who will be saved and then Jesus will execute it. Let me give you the verses Psalm 110

Psalm and by the way all these verses are post Calvary. So this judgment speaking to us is not helping your case. Okay. And Psalm 110 in light of the New Testament is talking about Christ coming to destroy his enemies on earth. Revelation 6:15-17. That’s why I’m saying instead of throwing thousands of verses, get to the verse so we can go through and exedute them. Uh Sam Sam, give me those five minutes. Give me those five minutes. So the order five minutes, but go ahead. Okay. Have a conversation, but I’ll let you go. I I had the introduction in five

Minutes. That was the icebreaker. So So listen. So it all the verses I’m going to mention speak about the judgment done by the father post Calvary and executed by Jesus. So Psalm 110 verse one speaks about uh Yahweh who says to Adonai sit at my right hand till I give my enemies to people can verse one that’s verse one and then in verse five and six it speaks about Adonai Jesus again who will execute that is what you see in Matthew chapter 25 you see the son of man sitting on the right hand of God at the second coming and then he bids those welcome who are blessed by

The father and in the Greek it shows it’s a Greek participle in the perfect tense it shows that the decision making was already done before the second coming again 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 Paul speaks here about the Christian group which already are saved but still speaks in verse five verse four and five that they have faith and and endurance that will be used in the judgment of God the father verse five and then later on in verse 7 6-9 he speaks about Christ who will execute it the same in John chapter 5 Christ said all judgment is given to the son of man but again he

Will execute it verse 26 verse 30 says as I hear I will judge revelation chapter 14 God the father is the judgment of God the father is the first angel message when Jesus comes back with a sickle on the clouds he has a sickle in his hand to execute the judgment 2 Corinthians Chapter 5, you will see it again in chap verse 9, it speaks about whether we are present or absent that we might be accepted. And then verse 10, because we all have to appear before the judgment seat of Christ. So hey Joel, let’s not let’s let’s not gish gallop because we’re getting a lot of of verses

Thrown out here, but we’re not actually able to look at and there’s a lot of things that there’s a lot of things you’re saying that that Christians just generally speaking are going to agree with. We want to talk about the specifics of whether it’s that this investigation began in 1844 that Jesus was inaugurated to be a priest at his ascension something along those lines that’s very specific and we’ll focus on point by point. Yeah. Okay. So why you know why I mention this first because if you cannot accept this concept which is often the case because

Many Christians seem to uh uh confine the judgment only at the second coming you never observe an investigative judgment but if you see the order yeah so let’s look at some of those verses that you’ve mentioned let’s look at some of those I’m going to he butchered every one of them so I’m going to butcher his butchering but I just got to make sure I maybe I didn’t remember I have my screen up I didn’t Remember, it’s okay. He can speak his five minutes, but I don’t recall he was going to have five minutes to preach and Gish Galla, but that’s okay because I’m going

To school his distortion every passage that he misqued, but I just want to make sure he’s not here to preach, right? I got it. We can engage. Let’s engage. Let’s engage. Now, let me let me deal with young man. I know you’re young. Take it easy. It’s okay. Let me deal with your butchering of Psalm 110. I try to correct your statement. If you look at the Hebrew, it says Naom Adoni, he’s speaking to Adoni. I just wanted to correct that. That’s not a major point, but it doesn’t What did I say? What did I say? You said Adonai. Oh, sorry. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Is it

Pronunciation? No, it’s not pronunciation. It’s two different words in the vowel marking. So, if you let me What I mean is that Yahweh is speaking to Adonai. First one, brother. If he’s going to cut me off, you know, the guy scared. So I’m trying to be respectful. It’s on your channel. I can’t even make a point for him manifesting. Okay. No, it’s not the same word. Uh Don is different. I just all I want to correct. And contrary to what you say, Psalm 110 shows that it’s being fulfilled from the time that Christ ascended to sit at God’s right hand. God is already slowly

Destroying his enemies. Slowly but surely. So this is why I say when you do gish gallop and throw a thousand verses, you’re only embarrassing yourself because you can’t execute any one of them. So, I’m going to walk through you. Let me just do this slowly. Mhm. I show you what it says. Because contrary to your assertion, the father, the son together now are slowly destroying Christ’s enemies until he returns. But let me just show that. Let me just give you one that uses the word Yahweh. And we still didn’t get to the investigator of John 19:44. That was

What I came to debate. But that’s fine. But let’s go here. Yahweh says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies a foottool for your feet.” Okay. Now, let’s see how the New Testament interprets this. Yahweh says to my Lord, “Sit on my right hand until I put your enemies as a foottool for your feet.” I’m going to now let the New Testament interpret this. 1 Corinthians 15. And by the way, just to let you know, let’s go here. Let me start earlier. Then you want to try to chime in and address these passages. But let’s let the New Testament instead of gish

Galloping. 1 Corinthians 15:20 to28. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order, Christ the first fruits. After that those who are Christ that is coming. Then comes the end when he hands over the kingdom of God, the to the God and father. when he’s abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under

His feet. The last enemy to be abolished is death. For he has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he says all things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is accepted who put all things in subjection to him. When all things are subjected to him, then the son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him so that God may be all in all. So if we follow the flow here and Hebrews 10:123 confirms Christ when he ascended into heaven and sat enthroned at right hand that begins the subjugation and destruction of Christ’s

Enemies until the last enemy is destroyed when he returns. Hebrews 10:12-13. But he having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time sat at the right hand of God waiting from that time since what time? When he sat at God’s right hand which took place after his ascension waiting from that time until his enemies are put as a foottool for his feet. So I don’t know what you are trying to prove by saying that God is now judging and then Christ will judge because if you’re saying that it is God currently judging not the son you have the son contradicting you because in John

5:22-23 for not even the father judges anyone but he’s given all judgment to the son and he doesn’t say at the second coming all judging whether present past or future is the sons. So what exactly has this to do with the investigative judgment? Connect it for me. Okay. So uh first of all going back to Hebrews chapter 10, it speaks about Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and it says he waits till his enemies are put subject. So what I wanted to make clear with this point is it is God, it’s Yahweh who is in charge of putting enemies under Jesus’ feet. So that was

The point I wanted to make. What does it have to do of judgment or walks away? Because it is the order is Jesus sitting at the right hand of God. He waits till his enemies are put forth. And then according to verse 5 going back to Psalm 110. It is again Jesus who will execute the wrath in the day and he will execute the judgment in the day of his wrath. You’re distorting these verses. Let me repeat what I said to Yeah. Well, let me show you. Take it easy. If I thought you’re right, I’d be an Adventist. Take it easy. John 5:22 says, “You’re misreading it because it

Says,”For not even the father judges anyone.” Anyone, but he’s given all judgment to the son and he’s not qualifying it. You can keep reasoning your repeat what I just said because you’re not listening. I I heard it. Let me repeat. No, no, repeat it. No, I want to see. Repeat. Yeah. Repeat what I said. So Jesus said, “The father judges no one, but he has all given all judgment to the son.” But we have to read it in context. The context context is can I can I can explain you want me to right explain actually waiting for investigative judgment 184.

This is all connected to it. This all connected to it. Bring me to it. Give me the evidence. Okay. So let me also so in verse 26 and 27 speaks about that God who uh in verse 27 it uses the Greek words po poin that means to execute judgment. And then verse 28, last wait execute judgment. Verse 28 and 29 speaks about the rest of the let me bring up the Greek. Stop shouting. Let’s go to the Greek. What? Verse 27. Verse 27. Miles, if this guy’s going to yell, he can’t control himself. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Let’s go verse 27. What verse? So I want you to break down

27. 27. Okay. But I want to bring up the entire one because again when does but I can’t even talk with this guy cutting me off. No, you uh my friend, you say things and I would like to respond. No, you haven’t anything. I’m still waiting. You’re wasting time here. Okay. I want to now after this I want you to go to the investigative judgment. Stop the tap dance. Okay. Now we’re going to start in verse 27. He says go contact man. My goodness, dude. Take it easy. Okay. Read for me the Greek. Don’t read the English. I read the Greek for you. It says there.

Uh, it says there 25. Start at 25. 27. 25. Okay. 25. Amen. Loudly.

My brother, can I just finish because Okay, go ahead.

Now move on. Wait, before you move on, parse what it means. Kun, which first are you referring to? 25 where it says

Noon. Yes. What does that mean? And now is what’s what is? And now is now is that the dad will hear his voice. Speak speak in the mic so I can hear you because I can’t hear you too. And now is when the dead will hear his voice. The voice of the son of God. Do you understand the significance of that? It means that already now Christ has the power to res people from the dead. Glad you said that. So stop trying to show me that because you have either future tense somehow it implies this is a future action when here the Lord says what he’s going to do he’s already began

Doing at his first coming. But that was my point. I did not even mention the but I I went to the context in verse 28 and 29 where it speaks about the resurrection of the dead and yes but in that context Paul speaks about uh oh sorry not Paul about he he speaks about two words poin those two words slowly because your mic is and your accent is slowly. So in the within this context of the resurrection of the dead, he uses those two words poison and that means to execute the judgment. Can to execute the judgment and then here Sam let’s let’s let him let’s let

Him finish and then you can uh then you can chime in and then you can chime in and explain. No. Yeah. Because he’s saying that the judgment is in reference to the future. No. if he had understood my point. It already began now and it culminates in the judgment. That’s why I asked him about the kayoon and that’s confirmed in John 12 39 to 41. But go ahead. I’m sorry. John 9 39-41. No, you’re mistaken. It’s not simply future. It’s begun now and will culminate at the resurrection. This is the point I was making with Hebrews 10:12-13. But you ignored my argument. But what is that

The judgment going on right now? Read John 9:39-41 for me. It’ll tell you. John 9 39-41. Yeah. It already began and it will culminate at the second coming. John 9. And then what was the first? 39 of 41. Okay. 39. And hopefully we get to the investigative judgment. Well, after this we we’ll look at this point, but then this will be a perfect thing. I’m going to kind of lead us here. We’ll go to Revelation 14. Is that Is that cool, Joel? And we’ll talk about the judgment hour arriving since you’re talking about um well, the investigative judgment as

Well as right now the topic of judgment. Is that fine to go to Revelation 14 after this? Uh I would I would prefer not the Bible first, but that is okay with me. Uh I see that you want to I think you mean that Jesus bring up my screen. His mic is very bad. I can’t hear. Bring up my screen here. Let me uh let me enlarge it. So if everyone is listening, my point was that so people understand what my point is. Christ has already begun what will be fully culminated at his return. This is the point and for judgment came into this world. What kind of judgment? There are many

Types of judgment. That is relevant because otherwise you do executing. That’s not true because No, no, no. Take for example 1 Corinthians 11:31 and 32. That judgment has to do with Christ correcting us eternal life. What was my argument? You say that judgment here doesn’t is not relevant. What kind of judgment? That was my argument. What was my initial argument? I want to see if you even know what my argument is. You know what? You while I try to explain Okay, Sam. No. What was my argument? Repeat my argument. Sam Sam, let’s go back. Sam, Sam,

Can you please just repeat my arguments so I know that you know what you’re refuting? Just repeat it. That that this judgment already happened at the Christ event and that it it and that it will culminate in the it it culminates it culminates it culminates at the second coming. But you already said it happen judgment started from the beginning. If you had listened, I said that all the judging is done by the son, even subjugating his enemies under his feet. Because if you had heard me, I said when Christ’s sense to sit at God’s right hand, that is when

Father and son together are subjugating all things under Christ’s feet and will culminate in his return. Your argument was it’s the father doing it, then the son will come and judge. And I said, you’re wrong. That’s not what the text says. The text says that God will put the enemies under his foottool, not they both. It is God. No. Well, let’s read 1 Corinthians 15. No, you’re wrong again here. I mean, you’re not paying attention. Oh boy. I’m still waiting for 18:44. But I I wanted to I I wanted to finish John chapter 5 because you have not read

Verse 30. No, actually I did. I No, because Jesus said as I’m here, I feel it to you because I there’s I can’t make get heads wave. So, what do you want to do, Miles? Joel, finish finish your point in in John five and then we’re going to get to some more specifics in terms of the fundamental belief. Yes. So if we go to John chapter 5 starting with verse 22 to verse uh 30 you will see indeed Christ will is given the authority to judge but it’s in the context from verse 26 in the terms of the second coming the the resurrection of the dead and then it

Speaks about the execution of the judgment and by the way the parallel text with this is Jude chapter one because only those two words pointer Can can have you listen to Miles, please? Yeah, because Jude and Jude chapter Can I Can I Sam? Let’s Let’s let him Let’s let him finish and then you can respond to all of it. Brothers, brother Miles, if you let this guy Gish Gallop, that’s a cowardly tactic to notice. See, and he’s talking about my Hello. Okay. Fellas. Okay, gentlemen. Gentlemen, gentlemen, let’s take a breather. We can have a good discussion here. We can have

A good discussion here. Let’s just chill out. Joel, finish your points from John five. Sam, just let him finish. Stay in John 5. If you want to mention stuff in passing, Joel, you can mention stuff in passing, but make your point in John 5. Sam is then going to be given the floor to respond to that uninterrupted and then we’re going to move on to more specifics because we’re not really getting into the aspects of the fundamental belief right now. So finish your point in John 5 and then Sam’s going to respond to that. Okay. So in John chapter 5 you find in

Verse 24 ice that phrase you find again in Jude chapter 1 ice. So they will not come into judgment. And again you find poor those the combination of those two words you find again both in Jude and in John as it is in John speaking about the resurrection and the second coming. Again in Jude poin you will find in Jude 1 verse4 and 15 speaking about the second coming again. So we find here two linguistic things speaking about the second coming. Yeah. Okay. Now, let me destroy his butchering of Jude as he’s smirking because now Jude is going to prove my case. And

Miles, brother, I love you, brother. I know you’re trying to be fair. When you let him gish gallop, you’re letting him get away with murder. So, I’m going to have to slaughter him spiritually because remember he said Jude, right? But Jude buries you because it says Jude, Jesus has been judging from the beginning. Now, I want you to smirk, Joel. Smirk with me here. Don’t Don’t take it easy. Now, I’m going to smirk back at you guys. Let’s read context which he doesn’t like to do. He likes to pull it out of context. Verse 5. Now I want to remind you though you know all

Things that Jesus having once saved the people out of the land of Egypt subsequently destroys those who did not believe. Oh that sure sounds like it’s Jesus who’s been doing the judging from the beginning. And angels who do not keep their own domain but abandon their proper abode. This is why people think they know Greek are dangerous. He has kept an eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day. Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them having indulged in the same as these and gross sexual morality and having gone after strange flesh are

Exhibited as an example and undergoing the punishment eternal fire. Now I want everyone I’m going to read it because he thought he can go to Jude and say see it’s future. What was my point which he still did not address. Jesus has been doing the judging from the beginning. And here you have Jesus. And if if you want to go with the term Lord in the context of Jesus, he’s the one who’s been destroying and judging God’s enemies from the beginning until the end. And let’s continue. Yet in the same way, these men also by dreaming defile the flesh and reject authority and

Blasphemous glory blasphe glorious ones. But Michael the archangel when he disputing with the devil was arguing about the body of Moses did not dare pronounce against them a blasphemous judgment but said the Lord rebuke you. So much for Jesus being Michael. But these men blasphe the things which they do not understand and the things which they know by instinct like unreasoning animals. By these things they are destroyed. Woe to them for they have gone the way of Cain and for pay they have poured themselves into the air of Balam and perish in the rebellion of

Kora. These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feast. When they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves, clouds without water, carried along by winds, autumn’s trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted, wild waves of the sea, casting up their own fo shame like foam, wandering stars for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever. But Enoch in the seven generations from Adam also prophesied about these men, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of hisians.” Now guys, what’s ironic, this again buries his argument because this

Is a citation of the book of Watchers, chapter 1:9. I’m going to challenge every one of you guys, go read the context. It’s talking about a past judgment that the Lord Jesus inflicted with his glory ones as a sign. He’ll continue to do so when he returns, which has been my point. He’s been executing judgment from the beginning. This just buried your argument if you’re paying attention. But you’re not paying attention, Joel. But Enoch in the seven generation from Adam also prophesied about these men, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of his

Holy ones to execute judgment upon all to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against them. These are grumblers finding fault, following up their own lust, and their mouth speaks arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of their own benefit.” So the very passage you cited buried you because Enoch 1:9 isn’t talking about second coming. It’s talking about the Lord coming with his thousands once to destroy the watchers and that hybrid as a guarantee. The same

Lord who did in the past will continue to destroy the wicked until the end. And who is that Lord? Now I want to remind you though you know all things that Jesus having once saved the people out of the land subsequently destroyed those who not believe. So this made my point if you understood my point. When God judges, the father judges. He does it through the son. He’s been doing it from the beginning. He did it on earth. Which is why I said why the relevance of this word. Here you go, friend. Since you wanted to go there and I’m still waiting for 1844 because none of this makes your

Case. This is why I asked you right here when it says, “Truly I say to you, an hour is coming and it now is.” This means it is already begun and it will culminate in his return. So the judging and the raising of the dead isn’t something the son does in the future. He’s doing it now to guarantee he will then continue do it till the end. That’s why in John 9:39 says and Jesus said for judgment I came into this world. So I’m still waiting Joel for the argument of the investigative judgment. Can you get to 1844 and stop the tempt please? That’s what I’m here for. 1844.

You know, honestly, I’m not really for me it’s not the most important thing. 1844, that’s the time, right? For me, it’s the concept, the most important thing. That was what why I started with it. Uh that is like Perifer for me. Uh the uh the date. No, it’s got to be major for you. No, it does. No, no, that’s that’s what you just read. You read it. Is that the official teaching of the sevenday adventure 1844? Uh that is the author’s the emphasis. I see uh I I think I do believe in 1844 but that for me the concept is the most important thing. The concept is the most

Important thing. So uh that’s can we get to 1844? This is the heart of your prophecy. This is why I came to this. You got to drive you got to drive the the discourse with judgment uh with John and these sort of other areas. So Sam has mentioned 1844 a number of times. So maybe you can help because again the the belief does include 1844 and um they’re essentially saying that uh there’s biblical warrant or support for it. So maybe you can point him to where the belief why is the belief citing 1844. Okay. Uh 184. So before uh Adventists uh understood that uh Daniel 8:14 refers to

1844 they already understood that the judgment was passed. the year 1798 based upon the reformational understanding of Daniel chapter 7. Josiah Lich spoke was the first one who came up with the concept of the investigative judgment. He said it needs to happen after 1798 in 1842. Why? Because he said a judgment is being mentioned after the reign of the little horn. Now uh I’m having a hard time hearing you honestly. I’m not trying to touch the sevenour time on this. Okay, let me try it again. I said so initially Adventist came up not with the investigative judgment in 1844. It was

Already understood in 1842. Josiah Lich understood based upon Daniel chapter 7 that after the reign of the little horn a judgment is being mentioned. So the the predominantly the Yes. Because we find that sequence. We see that sequence. Yeah, but I’m trying to follow. If you go too fast, then you’re not talking to me. Okay. Okay. Little horn. Okay. I’m trying to figure out. So, Daniel 7 after the little horn. What again? After the little horn was raining for 1260. Uh it speaks about the period of 1260s. Okay. Right. And and it’s also explained in the

Latter part of Daniel 7. It says and after this the judgment. So Josiah Lit said after 1798 there should be a judgment and that was based upon pro protestant uh protest protestant understanding of the 1798. Yeah. So he assigned 1798 from Daniel 7. Yes. that from Daniel 7 because again Protestant understanding of prophecy was predominantly that the little horn refers to papacy and that it ended in 1798 708. So Protestants said it’s the papacy and what happened to the papacy in 1798? It was uh the general took uh uh the pope captive. The what? The general of of of Napoleon took the

Pope captive. Oh yeah. And that’s why the pope is still strong and the church Catholic church is spreading. So since that was a failed understanding, how does that justify 1798? It understood it was so the that u situation was understood as the fulfillment of the ending of the reign of the little horn. And after that it hasn’t stopped raining. So I’m still waiting. after that after that it speaks about a judgment coming up. So I just want I’m just I’m explaining I’m explaining why we are getting to 1844. So already already back then we without looking to

Daniel 8 verse14 Adventist Millerites Losiah Josiah was a scholar he understood it. Wait a second. We have here a trial. By the way, you already said the trial is done by God the Father, Christ will execute it post Calvary and somewhere around the period of the 18th in the 18th century. So, what’s where in Daniel? I’m still waiting, brother. You’re preaching. Yeah. Let’s go to Daniel. Where are you pointing to in scripture for this? We’re supposed to be discussing scripture. Can you give me the verses? Because Daniel 7 doesn’t assign at 1798. They’re

Appealing to some Protestants who say, “Oh, see the Pope uh Napoleon took the Pope captive. See, that’s now the end.” Well, that’s okay. So, what he said that the proof give me exesus. Open up Daniel 7, Daniel 8. Let’s go. Show me. Oh, Daniel 7. You know yourself. Daniel 7 goes together with Daniel 2. those those uh those Daniel 2, Daniel chapter 2 with the the statue with the different medals they agree with Daniel chapter 7 in terms of the four beasts and then we have Rome being mentioned and that Rome out of that oath of Rome came a little horn. So we have

Here4 miles because this guy’s preaching because Daniel 2 doesn’t help his case. Let’s go and look at let’s go and look at Daniel because here hold on fellas. Hold on fellas. Hold on fellas. Okay. All right. I’m gonna start stepping in a little bit more because we want to have a productive and fruitful conversation. I know we get passionate. I know. Um but there’s a lot of stuff being thrown out when we should just go to these verses. So all of the things that Joel is saying right now, and I think he would agree with this, are necessary for all of this

To be true, not just 1844. So, let’s go to Daniel 7 or Daniel 2 if that’s what we want to do. And let’s see where the text is the text teaching. Is it supporting what Joel is saying or is it supporting something else that Sam is going to say? Bring up my bring up my can you bring up I don’t know what you’re bringing. Okay. Daniel 2. This not going to help your case because it says the messianic kingdom will be established in the reign of those kingdoms. Now somehow you’re taking it to mean the Roman Catholic Church when in the context it’s talking about the empires

Such as Babylon, Midas Persia, Greece and Rome. You now take Rome to mean the Roman Catholic Church when its historical context is talking about the empires, the superpowers. And so if you go to Daniel 2 34:35 because even Muslims misuse this sadly. But all these empires they are sequently when the when the when the destroyed when it is destroyed when the when the looking until a stone was cut out with hands and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at

The same time when and became like chav from the summer threshing floors and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. that the stone that struck image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. If I read this contextually, it’s talking about during those four empires, during the fourth one, the other three still will not have been completely wiped out. And historically, do you want to manifest again? I mean, I can read it for you. No, I said I said yeah, I I agree. Okay, so it says it starts out as a stone, but then it will end up become a

Great mountain. Meaning this stone without hands will slowly engulf the earth. That’s why it starts as a stone and it becomes a great mountain that eventually fills the earth. This goes back to the point I made earlier. When did this happen? Okay. Well, brother, if I have to break this down, you know, there’s no discussion because you’re wasting time. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Okay. So, do you want me to repeat it again? But the stone which is not a mountain that struck image became a

Great mount. Meaning it starts as a stone during these empires and slowly it becomes a great mountain that eventually fills the earth. That’s exactly the point I was making earlier when Jesus said he’s already begun the judgment, begun the resurrection and will culminate when he returns. Joel, what was your what was your question to Sam? My question is my question was when did this was fulfilled? When Christ came. Okay, that’s when you say and okay I I I I will disagree based upon Daniel 7 where we have um think about also this Daniel chapter 9 maybe I’m now

Uh jumping to Daniel chapter 9 and Daniel chapter 11 we see here we see here that this entity based upon Daniel 11 verse 22 Daniel 11 verse 22 the entity which will stood up against Christ um um based Okay. So is the Roman is is the Roman army is the Roman power. Daniel 11 is not about Rome. It’s about Antiochus that preig 11:20. It speaks about the Daniel is about Antiochus who prefigures the antichrist. Yes. Because Daniel 11 You can say all you know you want dude. I’m going to show it to you from Daniel 8 and 11. Take it easy. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Yes. Because the same Daniel 11 36 to 37, that same figure is the same one of Daniel 8, which is your proof text that you’ve been running from, which I’ve been waiting for you to bring up, that little horn. It’s the same figure. And historically, that’s Antiochus. And I’m going to demonstrate that here. Then the king will do as he pleases. Daniel 11:36-37. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god. Will speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He will exce succeed until ignation is finished. For that which is decreed will be done. He will show no

Regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women. Nor will he show regard for any other god. For he will magnify himself above them all. Then we go to Daniel 8. Then it grew up the host to the host of heaven, caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth. And it trampled down them down and even magnified itself to be equal with the commander of the host and removed the regular sacrifice from him. And the place of his sanctuary was thrown down. I said, “I’ve been waiting for you to go here, but for some reason you’ve been hesitant. And on

Account of transgression, the host will be given over to the horn along with regular sacrifice. It will throw truth down to the ground and do its will and succeed. Then I heard a holy one speak. Another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply while the transgression causes desolation so as to allow both the holy place and those to be trampled?” And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings,” very significant, “Then a holy place will be made righteous.” So this one will oppose the commander of

The host. And who is he? Daniel 8:25-26. And through his insight, he will cause the sea to succeed by his hand. He will magnify himself in his heart. He will destroy many while they are at ease. He will stand against the prince of prince Sadim. But he will be broken without hands. And what appeared about the evenings and the mornings which has been told is true. But as for you, conceal the vision, for it pertains to many days in the future. So this is talking about Antas. So I’m waiting for you to refute me. Especially this is the proof text that you you guys use this one here

Which you have yet to go to. So that’s where the 1844. So why aren’t you using this? Because Daniel 9 is not your proof text. uh you know the let me make it clear let me make it clear the before I go to this issue before I go to this issue as I said already for me the most important thing is the concept so the timing uh is not for me the first before first first and foremost thing I think that quite some adventists they have shown why antio could not be there are some good reasons why he could not be the fulfillment of prophecy. So this could be going back

And forth like yes or no. So for me that’s why I just wanted to stick without going into these things which could be decisive. I want to go to uh a clear concept of the investigative judgment without necessarily looking at the time and we could also look at the the sanctuary surface connected with it. But um so when it so going back to now Daniel chapter 9 and and chap chapter 8 9 and 10 I think that we still one of the main reasons why I say yeah this should be esqueological it needs such a fulfillment because in Daniel chapter 8 um it speaks again about it shall be

Onto many days and it speaks even about the destroying of the of the uh the little horn power. All those prophecies reach unto the end. Daniel chapter 2, Daniel chapter 9, uh, Daniel chapter 7, Daniel chapter 8. So, I want to be fair. Yeah. No, it doesn’t. Daniel 8 matter of fact, Daniel 8 starts with the messes and the Persians. Uh, right. And that and that and and that covers not only the meats and the Persians, but even the Greeks and the Rome. So for me already that indicates that that indicates that 6 years or seven years is not enough. If we have to

If we understand literally literal friend no the little horn is talking about Antiochus in its immediate historical context and he did come about later or long after Midas Persia long after Alexander when his empire was split into four because of his four generals and from their midst came Antiochus this is why I said this is the text you guys butcher to say 23 300 evenings and mornings means 2,300 years. And then you then tie it in with Daniel N. Butcher that. So I’m waiting for the evidence, but you don’t want to give it to me. So now if you don’t want to go there,

That’s one thing because he brought up 1844. I didn’t I didn’t tell Miles to quote 1844. No, no, no, no. Wait a second. Wait a second. No, wait a second. I didn’t. It even in the title 1844 is not mentioned. It speaks about the investigative judgment. Speaks about investigative judgement. 1844 from Daniel 8. So uh again without going I don’t even need to speak about 1844 I just when I just stay even in the New Testament you see esqueological judgment Christ executing the judgment and uh we can go for example to second Thessalonians chapter 1. Miles I’m I’m a little confused. I don’t

Mean I’m not talking to you. Miles why did you bring up 1844 brother? Why did you distract us with him for he’s not here to defend 1844. So, why did you quote it? No, no, no, no, wait, wait a second. Hold on, wait, Miles. Why did you bring up what they believe 1844? The man’s not here to defend that. Why did you waste our time in 1844? Because I’m thinking 1844. So, why did you bring it up, Miles? Can you explain to the audience? Well, I only brought it up because it’s in the fundamental belief as we see on screen and then you were uh regularly

Referring to that. So, I wanted to give you some control time if that’s where you wanted to go. But there are obviously other aspects of the belief that we can if you well you can’t obviously forget it if you just want to I mean if you want to have the belief but there are other things there are other pillars that are necessary as well. Yes. Thank you for now let’s go into the when does the what does the investigative so there are many aspects and the aspects I will defend right now is again the order the fact that it’s there in the new testament okay

Uh so and not necessarily the timing but that is an esquetological post Christrist event I want to make let’s let’s do this I’m gonna I’m gonna start I’m going to start directing on some very specific points that the belief talks about and we’ll start exploring those. We’re not going to focus on time since Joel doesn’t want to talk about time. Um, so let’s focus on this. Let’s just work our way through the belief. So Joel, my first my first thing is going to be it says at his ascension, he was inaugurated as our great high priest and began his intercessory ministry

Which was typified in the work of the high priest by the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. Then they talk about 1844. So you have something going on before 1844 from the ascension and they’re appealing to the Old Testament priesthood work saying that that was a typifying work. Let’s get into some of that. How does the explain that to Sam and how does the how how does that get that from the scripture slowly and speak loud because again I can’t hear you too clear and you speak fast slowly and loud so I want to hear you but okay so when we look at the sanctuary

Surface we see three main things we see the inauguration for example Exodus chapter 40 we see in Leviticus chapter 8 and 9 where uh the whole sanctuary was inaugurated Then we find the daily service during the year and at the end of the seventh or at the on the 10th day of the seventh month we find the day of atonement. So this is uh what we as Adventists believe was fulfilled in an antiypical way and it was also being uh prophesied. So for example take Daniel chapter 9. It speaks about um the anointing of the most holy. Um and that is also a seen in uh Hebrews

Chapter 9 when it speaks about when it speaks about the as the earthly covenant and sanctuary was inaugurated. So we also see that with inaugurated brother text or you want to keep okay you uh said anoint the most holy in Daniel 9. Yeah that there’s going to be six uh there’s 77s decreed and there’s going to be 627s and seven sevens for all of this to consummate. And then you said anoint the most holy. And you said that refers to what again? That refers to Christ who who inaugurated the heavenly sanctuary in all parts. But you are aware that it

Says anoint the most holy and there’s a debate is that the sanctuary or the person indeed but I I I I take the site of the of the sanctuary and the reason is that because the definite article is used is difficult to refer article for me it’s relevant. Okay. But you’re not here preaching to Adventists. You’re here to try to convince the non-adventists. Right. So it’s relevant to you, but it’s irrelevant because if we go with the definite article, then when it says Mashiach naged and there is no definite article. So you’re going to say anointed ruler or is that the Messiah?

It so when it speaks to the most holy, it’s not referring to the Messiah. You didn’t hear answer my question. That’s not what I asked. Oh, sorry. What did you say? Let me repeat your argument. See, this is the problem. When someone thinks he has knowledge of the languages, this is where it becomes dangerous. Article lack thereof. The most holy doesn’t mean it has to be the most holy place. It must it can refer to the one who is the holy of all the holy ones. But okay, good. But now I want you to apply your argument consistently grammatically because you’re aware when you go to

Daniel 9:25, it says Mashiach Nagid will come and then it says Messiah will be cut off and not for himself. But there is no article before Mashiah Naged. So should we then translate it an anointed ruler or is it the Messiah messianic ruler? Would you still consider to be definite? That’s a good question. I’ve not delved into that aspect. I’ve not delved into at that aspect. That’s a good point. I will I will take notice of it. Okay. Uh so taking at face value. So even if that was okay, let’s say we just miss skip that verse. Still we see we see we

Do see a correspondence between the old sanctuary cultic service where you see an inauguration before the daily service and again you see that also in Hebrews chapter 9 and 10 there where where inkyo is used in Hebrews 10 verse 20 for the for the uh inauguration of the new uh san he heavenly sanctuary what’s used again Hebrews 10 with all Eno. What is that used for? That it means that is the word inauguration and that is only Hebrews 10. Hebrews 10 verse 20. Use what is it inaugurating? Hold on. I know I know but I just want to say because a lot of assumptions. Okay. Now

Bring up my screen. Uh so you know that Hebrews chapter 10 verse 20 brother right here. Yeah. Therefore, brothers, since we have Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence, enter other places by the blood of Jesus by a new living way which he inaugurated for us. What he inaugurated was the new way to enter into God’s presence, right? Yeah. But wait, it is connected to the sanctuary, the hagya. That’s not the argument. The argument here is it it is so it is connected to the hagya. And in the light of Hebrews chapter 9 verse 18 to2 see again. Yes you see again you see again the

Sanctuary mentioned and not only and not only can I 10:20 before you run to rebite because it’s what you do you take verses and read into them what is being inaugurated right here by a new living way. That’s what he inaugurated. Read it. It’s there. You keep gish galloping and running to 10,000 verses. Slow your horses, young man. Let’s do exa Jesus. Yeah, but wait a second. He says here, he says here that again you have to look at the word n and which refers back to what was formally stated which speaks about the way that speaks about the way of the holiest

And repeat my argument because I don’t think you got my argument again. No one denies this is connected with Christ making a way for us to enter the most holy place. You’re attacking straw man. Is is how we enter the most holy place. It’s not done by priest on earth once a year when he can only enter and have to leave at his own peril. It is now done by the flesh of Christ broken for us to give us unbroken access to the most holy place. I think it’s part of it. But again in the context in the context of chapter 9 because the nine chapter 9 and 10 are

Close. We see sure let’s go to Hebrews chapter 9. You will see it again. Okay. Which verse you want me to look at? Chapter 9 verse 18-21. Say it again. 8. Chapter 9 verse uh 18- 21. All right. Do you mind if I read from 14? Uh sure you can do that. Because for how much more will the blood of Christ who through the eternal spirit offered himself without blemish to God cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason he’s the mediator of a new covenant. So that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the

Trespasses that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must be of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead. For it is never enforced while the one who made it lives. Therefore, not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. So what was inaugurated? the covenant. Okay. For what every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the law, he took the blood

Of the calves and the goats with water and scarlet wool and hiss up and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” In the same way, both the tabernacle and the No, I’m not finished. Take it easy. Because are you getting that excited? Thank you. No, I’m going to say thank you because you’re making my just hold on. And in the same way, both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry, he sprinkled with the blood. And according law, one may almost say all things are cleansed with blood.

Without shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. Now, before I read the rest, I want to see if you know how to connect verses and exed. So, one more time, we’re going to read this. We’re not going to go anywhere. I promise. We’re going to go all the way to 28. For this reason, he’s a meteor of a new covenant. So that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the trespasses that were committed under first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For a covenant is there must of necessity be the death of

The one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead. For it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Now we’re going to see what inauguration means. Therefore, not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. Do you understand the therefore what it’s meaning here? What’s the point here before we move on? The covenant is always inaugurated with blood. Okay. So you now you and I agree to can because I know Jesus cleansed is the heavenly that’s in Hebrews 9:23. What I want you to do is exedute properly. The inauguration here is the covenants which

Must take place by death. Right? You’re missing something out because also in verse 21, also verse 21, it infolds the sanctuary. No, I’m getting there. That’s stuck for you know, you know, it here. Take it. I’m going to get there. I just read it. The therefore here is talking about to me. It’s clear to me. It’s clear to me. So, it is right now. Let’s follow the train of thought. For when every commandment had been spoken by most all the people according law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats with water and scarlet wool and hissup and sprinkled both the book

Itself and all the people. Now we’re going to say what in the same way means saying this is the blood of the covenant which God made commanded you. And in the same way now it’s talking about the tam being cleansed by blood. You are making an issue of inaugurating. What’s being inaugurated is the covenant. What’s being cleansed by blood is heavenly tabernacle. I want you to make a distinction. You keep nodding your head, but let’s read it one more time. Okay. It’s the same way. What? Same way here. Let’s read it again. For when every commandment had been

Spoken by Moses to all the people according to the law. He took the blood of the calves and the goats with water and scar scarlet wool and his sprinkled the book itself and all the people saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” So, how did he inaugurate the covenant? By blood, right? Yeah. And in the same way he then cleansed the tabernacle with blood. That’s all I want you to see that the inauguration is the covenant. And yes, the cleansing, but you put words. You put words. It says sprinkled. It doesn’t say. So here

The act of sprinkling is part of the inauguration process. And you put computer to be cleansing. No, let me read one more time. No, now you putting it. You’re pointing something. Not even I didn’t even get to Hebrews 2 9:23. The point is two, but you can’t read it because you’re reading your theology into it. He’s making two points. The new covenant has been inaugurated by death like the old covenant was. Cuz when there’s shedding of blood, a death occurs also. Just like Moses cleansed the earthly one, Christ cleanses the heavenly one. It’s making

Two points, not one. But that was al I did not deny that. I that is why I said that I said that is why I said it infalls some I said I I said the inauguration of the new covenant going back to Hebrews chapter 9 Hebrews chapter 9 builds upon Hebrews chapter 8 chapter 8 speaks about a new covenant now okay wait this here chapter 8 just give me 10 seconds chapter 8 speaks about the new covenants B chapter 9 verse one said as the old covenant had a sanctuary so Paul is also showing in Hebrews chapter 9 that the new covenant has a sanctuary so I’m talking about inauguration which you

Misapplied that’s all I’m correcting now I I’m just saying that involves also the okay buddy can get inauguration of the heavenly sanctuary when we get to the cleansing here’s your cleansing therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these with the heavenly things themselves with better. Now, here’s the cleansing. Okay. Now, tie this in with the investigative judgment. Now, finally, we get to I want to see how you’re going to connect us with the investigative judgment. This let Joel really quick, really

Quick. Let’s let Joel talk here uninterrupted for a few minutes and just make sure he gets everything out here. That way, we can really engage with the point. Okay. This text does not necessarily uh need to be tied in with the investigative judgment. It could be if I have to take that route. We should remind oursel that here the uh infinitive is used. The infinitive does not denote temporal time. So this could be applied to any time. So this text does not really give me any evidence because it could be in the past but it also will be in the future. Why I

Say in the future? Because some will say verse 24 and 25 speak about the day of atonement. So if you connect it with that it could be the day of atonement but uh uh it could also be but again verse 23 already shows that it is not necessarily happening at the cross when the Christ event because the verb tense of the infinitive does not maintain time reference in such a way. So that will be this text I don’t really this text is for me not a strong one in either way. I can’t keep up with him because he speak 50,000 miles per hour. Slow it down buddy. That’s why I’m cutting off.

Okay. I said this text. Yeah, I know what you said about the infinitive since you say conclusive. It’s not familiar. Strong evidence in either way. Can we get to your strong evidence? Because I was about to show you contextually does improve your But what’s your strongest evidence? The the strong for what specific point? What was this? Which specific investigative judgment? Yes. So going back to my main thesis what I wanted to what I said is that in in the New Testament you will see the sequence uh inauguration and I mentioned Hebrews chapter 9 verse 18-21 and then

We find a then we find uh the we find an atonement post Calvary. We find that in two verses. My favorite. Okay. Real quick, just to make sure people got he said he said, “Then we find an atonement post Calvary.” Continue. Hebrews 2:17. Very clear. Very clear. That’s No, mute to you. It’s clear. Hold on. Let me bring it up. Tech and look at Let’s go to the Greek. Please go to the Oh, here we go again. Here. Okay. You don’t Let’s establish the Let’s establish what the point is here. So, so Joel, what’s the point of going here to say that the that this text is

Teaching that there is an atonement post Calvary? Okay. So, here it speaks about very clearly. It speaks about let me just get the Greek. That’s Hebrews 217. I know. Yeah. So, Hebrews 2:17 is already I mean, we all know that Christ already died on the cross. Then it mentions Christ as a high priest. And then it says there uh let me get there on the screen. It says that that word that is an infinitive speak louder. We know what means. Yes. Propitiation. Okay. No hilarion is the noun. We are not speaking about the noun. I’m giving you hilmas. I know the family

Of words. I didn’t tell you what exact word. Okay. Not to correct me because your Greek is no good. But keep going. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. No, go ahead. Go. Easy. Yes. Go ahead. What’s the point here? So, the the infinitive is used in the present tense. We are dealing here with an atonement. This word is the most important word for atonement. We have also in the Greek, but here he’s using me. Well, the one thing I’m going to ask you, stop appealing Greek because you’re going to get butchered in the Greek. Stop insulting me. Just get to the point

Cuz I’m going to use this and I’ll show you. You don’t know Greek existence. Just get to the point. I already told you it’s an infinitive in the present tense. Okay. So, but Joel, what does that prove? How does that prove the investigative judgment? Yes, we are dealing here. I I’m saying no, I’m saying here it speaks about an atonement. Hey, don’t don’t forget guys what I just mentioned. I said it speaks about an atonement. How does he make atonement in post Calvary in heaven? How does he make it atonement in heaven? applying his blood. Say it again.

I would say applying his blood. Priestly, there is nobody. There’s nobody presenting his blood. Can I make my point? There’s nobody that denies that part of Christ’s priestly ministry min ministry is to present the sacrifice of Calvary to the father as the basis by which he keeps interceding. But that’s not something he does in 1844 or wherever. I don’t know what date you want to sign it. He’s been doing to heaven. So, we’re still trying to see how your knowledge of Greek is making your case. What’s the evidence? It is an atonement. It is an atonement.

What’s that atonement again? Repeat it. It’s the word. What is the atonement that he’s making? He’s being slain in the most holy place. No, that is the presentation of the blood. The presenting of the blood. Just as we have seen in the daily service, the sacrifice was killed and then the high priest had to present the blood. What is Christ’s offering in the most holy place? I wait a second. I did not say the most holy place because Paul is what does No, I’m going to bury you in Hebrews 9, which you loved. Hold on. I’m going to show you. He when Paul said listen to the dude,

Are you scared of the Bible? I don’t do no scared. Please, please. Let’s go. Let’s go. Okay. Let’s let’s let’s focus things up here. So, you’re still continuing, Joel, to prove the point correct that there is a postcalvary atonement, right? And you’re saying that it is and you’re not saying that it is a slaying work, but that it is a presentation work. Correct. Yes. To present to Indeed. Indeed. Now, do you know of anyone do you as a Presbyterian deny that? Um, well, it just depends how we’re essentially defining words. I need to I need to stay

I need to stay neutral. Obviously, we but obviously we don’t but of course we of course know we do not deny that Jesus presented his sacrifice. So, you need to get a little bit more specific Joel about the investigative judgment aspect but close again as I said the word itself is a word which denotes atonement. So, we’re talking here about atonement. How is he making atonement? It’s presenting the sacrifice of Calvary, not that he’s being sacrificed in the most holy place. And you agree with that, I think. I didn’t say that. So now, so, so now,

Let me read Hebrews 9 when he started. Can I read Hebrews 9? Yeah, go ahead. Hold on. Let me read to the script. He Hebrews 9:22 to 28. And according to the law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood. Without shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter holy places made with hands, mere copies and ruins, but into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God for us.

Nor was it that he would offer himself often as high priest enters the holy places year by year without blood that is not his own. Otherwise, he would have to needed to suffer often since the foundation world. But now once at the consummation of the ages he has been made manifested to put away the sin by the sacrifice of himself. In as much as it is appointed to for men to die once and after this comes judgment. So Christ also having been offered once to bear the sins of many will appear second time for salvation without reference to sin to those who eagerly await him. So

According to the context, why did he enter into God’s heavenly presence to do what again? Uh the the context here speaks about the singularity of Christ dying that he died once. It’s to die. It says here to offer for the uh for the uh many sins pro. So what is I know what means stop trying to press me with the Greek you don’t know it’s contrasting with the high priest on earth. So when they enter the most holy place what were they doing presenting? He is not he is verse 24 is not speaking about the most holy places speak about the whole Christ did not enter holy places made

With hands mere cop but into heaven itself now watch how it’s going to bury you just be patient now the presence of god for us the presence of god for nor was it that he would offer himself off and as the high priest yeah but wait a second the highest year let me finish it year by year this is the day of atonement no you know why it’s not the year by year. It didn’t say day by day. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It speaks first of all, it cannot be by year. Yeah. Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. You have this text, this phrase year out is is is explained in Hebrews

Chapter 10 verse 1-4. Listen, listen. There it speaks. This guy wasting our time. He’s he’s a joke, man. I’m serious. I’m serious. Oh my goodness. Here, let him let him let him finish his point. Let him finish. If you want to have a discussion, you can have it because this guy’s a waste because the context is clear. Jesus enters the presence of God place. He doesn’t say hagon. He speaks about the whole sanctuary. He doesn’t need to. He says the presence of God and contrast that with the high priest who does it on earth. Only someone who’s committed to a false

Prophetist would have to butcher. But the presence of God sanctuary it applies to the whole sanctuary. Wait. No. Not here when it says ear by ear. No. No. If Paul Listen, go to verse seven. Go to verse seven. Take Hebrews 9:7. Go Hebrews 8. Take it easy. Hebrews 8. Your burial because you went to Hebrews 8. Now the main point in what is being said is this. We have such high priests who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the majesty of heavens. Where is the throne of the majesty in heavens? Where is the throne in the majesty of heavens? Stop the game. I’m getting

Tired. In the sanctuary, but you know that there are Where is Jesus now? Listen, there are many furnitureures in the sanctuary. You explain me, right? I see. No, explain this. The throne of the majesty is where? It’s it’s in the heavenly sanctuary. Which part? Both parts. It could be both parts because of both. You know why? You know why? Because those those furnitureures they had crowns. They had crowns. Take for example the the the the the altar of incense which was in the holy place. It had crowns. Was there God’s throne there or behind the veil in the most holy place?

Both sides. God’s throne was the veil, but God also was communicating. Oh, that’s not what I asked. Mercy seat, the ark of the covenant. Where was it? That was in the most holy place. Okay, because I was going to go to Hebrews 9 to bear you again. You think you know Greek. So now let’s everyone heard you. So the mercy seat, the throne of God, the majesty, where is it? Wait, wait, but now you’re making it. Wait, now you’re making an assumption that you want him to give us five minutes closing statement because I think we’re wasting time now. We don’t have to make that assumption.

You are connecting the throne of God always with the most with the uh with the mercy not that it’s not the ark of the covenant, the mercy seat and the earthly tabernacle was located where where do we see it in Hebrews chapter chapter 8 and 9:es 1 to8. Now even the first covenant had requirements of divine worship and earthly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle prepared, the first part in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread which is called the holy place. Behind the second veil, there was a tabernacle which is called the holy of holies,

Having a golden altar of incense, the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, and which was a golden jar holding the mana and Aaron’s rod which the tablets of the covenant and above it with a cherubim overshadowing the mercy seat. I’m going to ask you again so see if you’re going to play games. Yeah, but it doesn’t say it’s not a throne. It doesn’t say that only that is the throne. That’s you want to give us five minutes closing statements, brother? Because we’re wasting time. He said well well he said his point was that that’s not the only throne. So he’s

Saying that there’s other things that was a throne in the holy place, God’s throne in the holy place. Was there a throne? Okay. So we know it’s symbolic, right? So as as I said, those furnitureures which had crowns symbolize also God’s one make easy for you Joel. I’m not asking about symbolic. There was an actual mercy seat, arc of the covenant design behind the most holy. Sure. Sure. Was there an ark of the mercy seat in the holy place and in the most holy place? Yes, indeed. Sure. Wait, would you say it again? Uh, was there? Yeah, both. Was there a mercy seat ark of the

Covenant in the holy place as well as behind the most holy place? We all know it was only in the most holy place. Oh, good. Now, can we No, no, no. Can we already said you don’t have to make the connection where is Jesus making? Where is Jesus sitting? At the right hand of God, not at the right. No, no, no, no, no. Read it again. Where is Jesus sitting? At the right hand of the throne of God. Where is God’s throne in heaven? Again, you only apply it to the mercy seat. I would not I would not conclude that. Hey brother, I think it’s we can wrap it up, man. Let him get his five

Minutes closing statement. Hey, hey, hey. Okay. Hey, you know what? Again, when Paul think about this when Paul speaks about I’m done, brother. So, I don’t know if you want to keep preaching. I’m telling you, this is wasting my time and yours. Let him make his five-minute closing. When I when I talk, it’s called preaching. When When you talk, it’s not calling preaching anymore because I want to go. I want to go. I’m getting moderator instead of being silent. Moderator, you give us five minutes so we can wrap it up. Sam, Sam, Sam, I really I’m disappointed because

You know I want to lose sleep over you. Okay. Yeah. Give us five minutes, man. We’re done here. Okay, Miles, maybe. Okay, let me give my five minutes. Right. So, when Paul really speaks about the day of atonement in uh verse Hebrews 9:7, he calls he talks about any outon as well, but he says hak to any outon hap once in a year. when he speaks about the whole cultic uh uh uh surface he says anyon again Hebrews 9:24 24 kaon verse 7 hak and you when you go to Hebrews chapter 10 verse 1-4 again you see the whole cultic uh is in few and only kata and aon is used so I that

Is the point I wanted to make you’re done now because now I’m going to bury your hap and your faint knowledge of and then that’s it. So we’re done. So again guys, this is an illustration of someone who doesn’t know Greek, pretends he knows Greek and butchers the Greek because it is not simp. Why are you cutting me off? I didn’t cut you off. These are closing statements. Take it easy. I know you’re embarrassed cuz your religion got time for you to repent. Can I make my case? Okay, brethren. This is where an illustration of a little Greek can be dangerous because he doesn’t know Greek.

He thinks he does because notice when concepts are used to teach the same point that Jesus enters the presence of God in the context that’s contrasted with the high priest who enters yearbyear. And where does he enter? not day by day daily the most holy place showing that Christ enters the most holy place that’s where God’s presence is and this is confirmed by the fact that Christ is seated at the right hand of the majesty on high which is to be seated at the right hand of the throne of the majesty of the heavens which if you heard him with all his rambling and distortion of

The Greek he goes yeah yeah yeah but the ark of the covenant it’s only in the most holy place but symbol ically you can say God’s throne is in all of it but we know there’s only one mercy seat an ark of covenant and most holy place and yet Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the throne of the majesty if the earthly is a replica of the heavenly then that means the ark of the covenant mercy seat that is supposed to be a replica of the throne in the most holy place where is Jesus he’s in the most holy place where is he seated in the most holy place That’s where he went.

That’s where he’s interceding and presenting his blood. All of his arguments is based on taking a snippet here, a snippet there, butchering this, butchering that, feigning Greek, and when the Greek backfires against him, running and doing dish galloping. This is proof. This is a cult. And LG White is a tool of Satan. I pray he repents. So Lord bless you. I I did not even mention Ella White, my brother. I don’t know why you mentioned this. Um, have you also Funny, we’re done. I don’t know why you’re trying to preach. It was closing statements. So, what do you appreciate?

Okay. All right, folks. Thank you for being here. I know this was a bit of a dumpster fire. Gentlemen, I appreciate both of you being here. Um, I understand sometimes we get heated in discussions. It’s also a little hard with technology. Sometimes I think there’s a little bit of a lag as well as not the best microphones, but hopefully the Lord will use this for his purposes however he sees fit. As always folks, thank you for being here and may Christ richly bless you in the grace and peace by him and his vicarious death on the cross for sinners. Hallelujah.