DEBATE: What is the Role of the 10 Commandments? | Adventist vs. Former Adventist

Well, hey there. Thank you for being here and an especially warm welcome if this is your first time with us. Adventist or otherwise. Question of the night, aka topic of the night. What is the purpose of the ten commandments in the life of the Christian? An important topic. So, I’m looking forward to the discussion. But first, if you like what we’re doing here, I want to remind you that you can support us by becoming a channel member. Simply click that little join button down below this video or visit the link in the description box down below. You’ll gain access to our growing

Library of membersonly content, including membersonly live streams. The next of which is tomorrow where we’re going to get uh get into some of the uh behind the curtain sort of stuff, if you will. I’ve never really done this in live stream before, so should be interesting. Um if that interests you, we’re going to be doing some historical digging together. Um we’re going to go down the rabbit hole on a couple of historical matters. If that interests you, consider joining us. Like I said, um you can click the link in the description box down below if you don’t

See the little join button down below this video. It is because you are either in a country where it’s not supported or you might be on a mobile device and you might have to check on a desktop computer. Thank you so much to all of our members for their support. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. Matt, I will start with you. Let people know who are you and then Mike, you can do the same. Cool. Uh my name is Matt Maria, live in New York and I uh have been a 7th Adventist since 2004. Uh previously was really no association to religion only in name uh namely

Catholic. Um so it’s been quite some time. Uh I did uh I did uh take a break so to speak. Uh veered off a little bit and for quite some time but then uh was reclaimed uh by the Lord Jesus. So, uh, now I’m, you know, I’m a local member of my church. Uh, I do teach. I do lead out in Bible studies. I also, uh, am part of the personal ministries department. Um, but currently what I do full-time is I’m a solar salesperson. So, if anybody’s looking for solar, little, uh, little cheap, uh, what do you call that? Clip thing. Um, little plug. Little plug. There you go. Little cheap

Plug in there. Um, but no, but for real, um, I’m passionate about the Lord. I’m passionate about the truth. I’m passion about the Bible and just sharing his love with everybody around. Well, cool. Mike, who are you? Well, I’m Mike Colburn. I have been a 7th Adventist my entire life until about four months ago, so 43 years. My dad was an Adventist pastor his whole life and career. Is now retired. Uh we live in Northwest Arkansas. I am passionate about scripture, biblical ex Jesus. currently getting my masters in biblical studies and uh just excited to

Have a honest dialogue and conversation and may may the truth be be known. So that’s a little bit about me. Amen. Well, thank you both again for being here. A quick rundown for the audience and just a refresher for you all on the agenda for the night. Each interlocutor will have five minutes to open to give an overview of their response to the topic. This will be followed by one hour of back and forth discussion which is going to be broken up into 15minute increments of control time. What do I mean by control time? Control time is simply to make sure that

Questions are able to be asked and basically that no filibuster uh filibustering happens. We want to have a good rigorous discussion tonight where both positions are both presented and examined and then each individual will have a fivem minute closing to wrap things up. I will be functioning as a neutral moderator facilitating the dialogue and making sure we stay on subject if we happen to get off track which is understandable in these types of discussions. I will simply step in and get us back on track. Final point, when you hear this, that means you have one minute left.

That will indicate one minute. And then when you hear it a second time, that will indicate your time is up. So you can wrap up your thoughts if you happen to be in the middle of one when that dings. But that will ding at the exact minute. So just finish up your thought after you hear that the second time. Any questions? All right, Matt, we will start with you. We Oh, go ahead. Sorry, I thought you said something. Matt, we are going to start with you. We did a coin toss and uh Matt is going to go first. You’ll have five minutes to explain what as an Adventist Let me get

The stopwatch going here. what you as an Adventist believe the uh role of the ten commandments is for the Christian. Your time will begin once you start speaking, sir. Okay. Thank you for the time. Uh so I’ll just be kind of more brief than long on this uh and I’ll give a big picture and then I’ll break it down a little bit. So um I will just answer the question uh biblically what is the role of the ten commandments or the law of god in the life of the believer and really in the life of humanity. So, um, the big picture I, uh, concur with with Paul in

Galatians is that it’s to bring us to Christ. Uh, the the the ten commandments are ultimately to point us to Jesus, uh, who gives us life and liberty and his spirit uh, in order to carry out those principles and those details. uh and more specifically if you go to Romans 3, Romans 4, Romans 7, uh you will see that the law of God actually defines sin and righteousness. So it gives us the definition of what sin and righteousness is. It encompasses the whole duty of our human race and it is the means by which God will judge the world. It’s also the

Basis of God’s covenant with all of his believers. When we go into a covenant relationship with God, both if you look at the old and in the new covenant, the basis of that covenant is the ten commandments. It is his law. Uh the only difference between the two, which I’m sure we’ll get into, uh is what is usually being contrasted in scripture uh as opposed to it contrasting whether or not we should uh have the law in our lives or obey the law or have it necessary. Um the law has never changed. It’s always binding. And I believe that as we look into scripture and especially

As we go throughout time and we go in through the time of the second coming or through the time of the return of Christ, we do see that there are a people that are faithful um to Jesus. We have the faith of Jesus and they also are uh they also keep his commandments. Again, I want to make it clear though the big picture is that the expression of our faith or the expression of our salvation is not what actually gets us saved. Right? So what saves us is Ephesians 2:8-10. Right? By grace we are saved through faith. That is what is our salvation. That is where our starting

Point and our end point is when it comes to salvation. I confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and I believe with all my heart. I am a saved human being and nobody can take that away uh from you as long as you are in Christ. You know all that the father has given to him or all that yeah all that the father has given to him will in no you know will in no wise uh you know can be removed from that. So however once you are in that saving relationship and in that uh established covenant relationship with the Lord there is a an expression of that and I’ll put it

Plainly the expression of it is obedience. Now how that looks uh can be varying depending on the situation. Um so if it is you know in a sense of you know someone just cut me off on the road or someone had just cussed me out or anything like that uh I believe that that expression of my faith will look like you know mercy grace and forgiveness and that is an obedient that that is obeying I believe in in every respect the thou shalt not kill in which Jesus put it into it goes further than just the actual physical act. it goes into the actual intention uh and the

Holding of that intention to get someone. So again, big picture, I know I’m probably going to be running out of time in a second, but just to give you the the big picture summary again, the purpose of God’s law, the purpose of the ten commandments is to lead us to Christ, who then will uh through his spirit and through his power, we’ll then be able to carry out the principles of that law in our daily living. And depending on the situation, it may look different. Look at that. Still got one. Still got one minute, sir. No, I’m good. I I I think I’ll I’ll

Stamp it right on there. Okay. Thank you for that. Mike, same thing for you. Your five minutes will start when you begin speaking, sir. Awesome. Uh thank you guys for the opportunity. Uh good evening everyone. Most Christians, as Matt already brought out, most Christians are going to agree the law plays an essential role in the life of a Christian. Uh, the Adventist position, which I have been an Adventist for 43 years, not saying I know it all, but I know quite a bit of it. The Adventist position regards the Ten Commandments as an eternal, unchanging

Moral law that remains binding on all Christians, as Matt brought up. This includes the observance of the Sabbath on Saturday, which they view as essential for maintaining a proper relationship with God. even suggesting that it is a requirement at least to maintain your salvation and a mark of the remnant church. Now, while Adventists argue that following these commandments is a response from God’s grace, their insistence that Sabbathkeeping, for example, is a necessity for salvation implies a worksbased hybrid model or approach to righteousness. This directly contradicts

The message of the New Testament which teaches that salvation as again I appreciate Matt sharing is received by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ not through obedience of the law. Now I want to be clear about something. The original purpose of the ten commandments in its context in the old testament these laws were given specifically to the nation of Israel as the foundation of the old covenant. They served as a way of defining sin. That’s Romans 5:13. To guide ethical conduct, Deuteronomy 5. And distinguished the Israelites from the surrounding pagan

Nations. Exodus 31 as well as Ezekiel 20. So these commandments, they played a a crucial role in shaping the identity of God’s chosen people, and they set the boundaries for what was considered righteous behavior underneath the old covenant. But when the Christ event occurred, a new covenant was established. And I firmly believe that that was not a renewal of the old covenant. It was a brand new covenant that allows us to relate differently to the law. And according to the New Testament, Jesus fulfilled the law, including the Ten Commandments. Matthew

5:17 is pretty clear in that. Do not think that I have come to abolish the law. I have come to not to abolish it but to fulfill it. This fulfillment doesn’t mean that the moral principles necessarily behind the commandments are discarded but rather that they find their completion in Christ’s life, his death and his resurrection. And the commandments were were not an end in themselves. They are not the standard by which we are judged. They actually pointed us to Christ. they should point us to Christ who takes away the condemnation of that law for those who

Believe in him. Then Galatians 3:11 is pretty clear now. It is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for the righteous shall live by faith. The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that the law’s purpose was to point out sin and our need for a savior, but it was never intended to be a means or a mechanism by which we are saved. Furthermore, I want to point out that the new the new covenant emphasizes new commands. I call them many scholars will call them the laws of Christ or laws of the Messiah. Most understand them as kind of a summarized way of the two

Great, you know, the great commandments, right? Love God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and love the your neighbor as yourself. And those are recorded in Matthew 22:35-4. But what’s interesting is the uh they summarize this there’s this moral shift. There’s this the essence of the law shifted from a legalistic observance instead to a heartbased relationship. And the New Testament also presents additional directives for Christian life that are called the laws of Christ or the laws of Messiah. So Christ’s fulfillment of the law sets us free from its condemnation, empowers

Us to live according to a new law, the law of love and the law of grace. And our salvation depends not on any kind of rigid adherence to commandments that we’re all going to be judged by, but rather by the faithfulness of Christ and the inward transformation that the Holy Spirit brings. Uh the ten commandments, I do not believe biblically that the ten commandments are going to be the standard by which we are all judged as humanity. Instead, we are judged by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Uh if you’ll look at Galatians 2:16, it’s pretty clear. Yet we know that no one is

Justified by the works of the law, but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law because by the works of the law, no one will be justified. Just on that point further, 2 Timothy 2 11-13 is also clear. This saying is trustworthy. For if we have died with him, we will also live with him. If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful. So we can believe in the faithfulness of

Christ. Why? Because he cannot deny himself. The emphasis must be on living out of love. Yes, time. We’re good. Sorry. I apologize. Oh, no. You’re good. You got you got about 30 seconds extra there. So, Matt, would you like 30 seconds extra? Are you cool on the scripture reading there? Cool. Okay. Thank you for that, Mike. All right. We’re going to transition into our 60-minute discussion period, which will be broken up, like I said, into four 15minute increments. Each of you receiving 30 minutes in total of control time. Just reiterate, control

Time is for you to lead the discussion. Keyword being discussion. um by asking questions and examining. With that said, Matt, the control time will start with you. The time will start once you ask your first question to Mike. Okay, Mike, I appreciate your explanation um and thesis there. Um couple of things. I I think in general I agree with what you were saying. However, your your indication that there’s been a shift at the Christ event, the shift being a heart relationship versus a letter relationship. So question for you are is your understanding that in the Old

Testament or in the Old Covenant and again correct me if I’m if that’s not your understanding uh or if it’s any point in the biblical narrative um is it your understanding that there was never a requirement for them to have that heart connection? So how in other words yeah that’s the question I would like to ask. Yeah I don’t I don’t think that’s the indication. I think that um fundamentally I don’t think most people understand the covenantal relationships in the Old Testament and laws taken outside of a covenantal relationship really don’t mean anything. Uh there’s

There’s no real binding effect on anyone if there’s no contract or covenantal relationship. And so, you know, clearly the Old Testament talks about, you know, the law being written on the heart. I think is Deuteronomy. I think even references some of that. But that wasn’t the way they engaged. The way they engaged in a relationship with God under the Old Testament was through their law abiding by making sure that they’re dealing with the the laws in a correct way. And if they didn’t, they were cast out of the the family, so to speak. They were kicked out.

Go ahead. You were gonna ask another question. Yeah. So, um I would I I would say that’s an overgeneralization. Certainly, not every single character in the Old Testament had that kind of relationship. I mean, and you alluded to it, Deuteronomy 5:29, if uh Miles can put that up. Uh and I know that’s probably what you were referring to. Um the you know, oh that there was such a heart in them that they would fear me and keep all my commandments always. So there there always were that had to be in place first in order for that to happen. Right. So and I and I appreciate what

You said because you did say that you know it was a majority of Israel in the Old Testament in the majority of their history was just more of disobedience than it was obedience. Right? And that’s what got them into a lot of trouble and that’s what got them into bondage. That’s what got them into these uh you know slaves into these nations and things like that. Um, but the intention of God in giving his ten commandments, right, the intention was always to have the new covenant experience. Even in the Old Testament, God didn’t have two ways to save

Humanity. Never did. If we interpreted it that way, the fault is on who? If I if I if we interpreted God had two ways to save us. one by keeping the letter of the law and one by, you know, having a heart connection with him. Yeah. I don’t I actually don’t think that Yeah. I don’t I don’t think the plan of salvation shifted. It’s always been in place and we need we know that by Hebrews talks about like by faith Abraham was was made right. So I think we’re talking about two different things. Um okay, the laws I just clarify. Yeah. Sorry, I didn’t

Mean to cut you off. I just I’m I just wanted to clarify because I wasn’t sure if it was clear on what you were saying because you had said there’s been a switch at the Christ event and I don’t see I I I I’m not seeing exactly clear where you’re seeing that switch when that that whole you know the two laws that Jesus mentioned you mentioned this too and I wrote this down love God with all your heart all your mind all your soul love uh you know love love each other love man as you know treat um love your neighbor as yourself I mean these are in the Old Testament

Yeah. So, let me let me just try to explain a little bit further. So, yeah. So, I just want to hear where where are you seeing the disconnect because I don’t see a disconnect between Old Testament and New Testament in terms of what God required. I do see that there’s a difference between how how you know what we responded when God was trying to get the original response which is the new covenant response. Yeah. So, so covenantally, if if you study the covenant relationship, God engaged with his people under certain, we we would call them contracts, certain contractual

Arrangements. You see the Noahic covenant that gets put in place. Um, very very clear. That’s a he says that I’m never going to destroy the world, right? So, so there wasn’t anything that Noah needed to do. It’s it’s what’s called a it’s it’s not a dual law, you know, agreement where Noah did something, God did something back. That’s a it’s a unilateral act. Okay? So, God makes a promise, he follows through on his promise. Noah gets to just be a part of the fact that there’s a covenant relationship there. So if you go through all the covenant relationship, Abrahamic covenant, Mosaic

Covenant, which the Mosaic covenant is where the Sinai, you know, the ten commandments along with all 613 laws, all that goes into place. So we’re going to break those. Yeah. Yeah. So So you’re gonna you’re going to see that with each of those covenants, there are a different set or a different way that either one party or the other party was required to be engaged. Some of them are unilateral, some of them are both. Okay, the Abrahamic covenant is unilateral. There is nothing that Abraham had to do in order to be blessed. Abraham just was that was the

Agreement with the covenant. Um, if you look at the new covenant, the new covenant actually isn’t necessarily a New Testament covenant. It was actually predicted in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 36. So it it specifically says I’m the new covenant is going to happen. I’m going to give you a new covenant. Now I think that the the Jesus event is the culmination of that new covenant. And that new covenant was ratified. Every covenant had to be ratified by blood. That it was ratified by the blood of Jesus Christ. So what’s the agreement? What’s the contract? Well, you’re saved

By faith. There is no works of the law. Whereas prior to in order to be a part of the family there was actually very specific things you had to do. Circumcision there was very specific things Levitical laws that had to take place in order to be a part of that relationship. Ask you a question. Yeah. Let me let me finish one thought here. I just wanted Yeah. If you broke those covenant those covenant agreements, you were either killed or you were kicked out of the camp. So they’re very different when you pull those. Okay. Go ahead. All right. So, um, there’s a lot of

Things you said there. It wasn’t just one clut. Um, and now I’m kind of Let’s pull up Genesis 17:1. Okay. For example. Okay. Genesis 17:1. Uh, let me pull it up on here as well. So you were mentioning about Abraham

And it says when Abraham was 99 years old the Lord appeared to Abraham and said to him I am God Almighty walk before me and be blameless or in other you know translations that’s another word for you know being complete being perfect uh that I will that I may make my covenant between me and you and multiply you greatly so was there a part to play so just I want to make it here you you were now okay there’s one thing you did say the unilateral uh aspect right so in terms of in terms of the the the the part that God is is playing right God was the one that is going to

Not only make the promise but also carry the promise out to fulfillment right that’s super clear that’s what you mentioned Right? God’s purpose in all those covenants. No, the Noah covenant, you know, I will not destroy, you know, there’s nothing there that Noah had to, you know, other than uh, you know, other than believe Abraham, right? Uh, I will car I I will do this in my own way. But Abraham obviously made mistakes trying to carry out in his own way. And this is why God had said to him what he said to him in Genesis 17. Right. So, in other words, Abraham

Actually had an old covenant experience in the midst of his narrative. Do you agree or not agree? I don’t know what you mean by the old covenant. I’m not sure I’m following. Four compares the two the two children. Who did Isaac uh sorry, who did Ishmael represent? What kind of covenant did Ishmael represent? What kind of experience did Ishmael represent? Well, I think we’re I mean We’re we’re getting into sort of like interpretation of it. Like fun fundamentally the Abrahamic covenant and its conditions is understood as a unilateral covenant where God made a promise. There

Was nothing that Abraham needed to do. It was all God. They needed to let God do his thing. There there was there was no part of I mean I don’t know how to so what how do you harmonize what you’re saying with Genesis 17:1 I’m not saying that Abraham is the one that is going to carry out and make the promise happen but there’s certainly a part we play in this in in this experience and that’s surrender and in allowing the spirit of God to do its thing but that but that’s not the way covenant agreements worked in the ancient near east framework So there’s nothing

There’s nothing that Abraham was required to do. Yeah. Okay. He walked before God and God but God did everything. There was nothing that correct. Correct. I I’m agreement with God did everything and including in when you mentioned now in the and so all covenants actually right there was no so there’s no new covenant or different covenant from all these covenants. Essentially God is doing everything including the old covenant. However, the reason why it’s called the old covenant was in the in this respect is that the people started to put themselves as a

Party to it as opposed to just God having to be a party to it, right? Because if you look at the new covenant, God is doing the same thing he wanted them to have experience of. He wanted them to experience himself in a heart relationship, right? He wanted them to have that, hey, it’s not us that we can do this in our own strength and our own power. It is the Lord that is going to carry this out for us. And many times you have that experience with Israel as a nation when they went to go fight battles with other nations that sometimes they didn’t do anything and

Let the Lord fight before them. And that was a new covenant experience. These were all examples of that. Now you mentioned all these laws as well. Uh in the satic you mentioned the 613 laws. You know you can just kind of in uh so there’s a couple of things with that right. Number one these laws are divided into four different laws. four different sections, right? You have the moral law, you got the ceremonial law, you got civil laws, which are called statutes and judgments, and you have hygienic laws. As long as Israel was a sovereign nation, they were required to keep the

Statutes and judgments. That’s why now they are no longer under a, you know, theocracy. They are no longer under a sovereign, they’re not a sovereign nation on themselves, led by directly by God, where they can carry out these things because they’re subject to the laws of the land that they’re in. right? When they were in Babylon, when they were in Persia, when they were in Greece, when they were under Rome, they could not I mean, Rome gave a little bit, but they could not just uh autonomously and authoritatively carry out their statutes and judgments. In

Other words, if someone broke the Sabbath, they couldn’t just stone them to death. If someone was caught in adultery, they couldn’t just stone them to death. That’s why today when people when men are cheating on their wife or wife are cheating on their husband, you don’t see death penalty enacted. We are no longer under that kind of uh sovereign government. We’re under the laws of government we’re in. We’re under the laws of the United States in this example, right? Where where is there a I’m just curious. Is there a question that you have with regards to

So I’m just I’m I’m I’m I’m kind of reclarifying because you had brought you make these up and I’m I wanted to you know see what your exchange was on that. Um, but again clearly what I’m trying to ask you is you’re saying that when know going back to the original question when Christ came there was a change and a change by who? By the fact that Christ says there’s a new covenant ratified by like he’s the one that says about he talks about it. He’s the one that instituted the new covenant. it it’s his statement that and it’s it’s a prophetic fulfillment of

Both Jeremiah and what did I say Ezekiel or like it was prophesied that someone would come and that he he is the like he’s the one that talks Jesus is the one that talks about it we can go to it I I can pull it up I I I wanted to before I go there because I you were asking or you were stating something about the divisions of the law Um was there a question that you had with regards to that like that you wanted one minute left and that’s okay and again I was the one asking no I was I was just kind of clarifying because um you had made it in passing uh as that being

Because I would of the covenant that God was fundamentally disagree personally I would disagree that there was divisions of the law. Now some might okay this is actually a debate in scholarship. I don’t think there is any in the Jewish writings in the actual Hebrew scriptures there is no way that they felt the law was separated. It was a unit. It was one unit. Yes, there were certain you as a modern individual could look at it and claim that there are ways that you could break it up into certain ways of seeing them. But there was the same just like

It said in it says in James, if you broke one, you broke them all. It’s one unit. So I I would fundamentally disagree that you you can’t break and we can talk about that. I’ll ask some questions probably on that, but I don’t think that’s a healthy way of looking at the law. All right, gentlemen. That was the first 15 minutes. We will now reverse roles for another 15 minutes. Don’t worry, Matt. It will be swinging back to you for another goround. But Mike, the control time is now yours. The time will start once you begin speaking, sir. Awesome. Matt, what is how is a person

Made right with God? Sorry, I’m trying to write some responses what you were saying. Okay. Uh, a person is made right with God by believing in Christ. I believe in Romans 4, it he believed in God and to him was imputed righteousness. Okay. Is there anything else that makes a person right with God? I believe that once that experience happens, God has the law written in their heart and that and the righteous fulfillment of the law is also the righteous requirement of the law are fulfilled in them as well. In other words, God not only just not God just so

In other words, there’s two parts to that. It’s you’re declared and then you’re and then you’re also made. Okay? Right? I believe in the Lord Jesus, declared righteous. Romans 4. And then you go to Romans 8. I’m also walking in the spirit and I’m being also made righteous in my life going forward. Okay. So if I hear you right, you are made right by faith, but then now that you believe, now you I don’t want to say you’re required, but it you’re you’re going to do something because of your faith. I I I will I will refer to Philippians chapter 2 and I will go to uh verse

13.

Okay. So you understand that to be a part of a salva salvational aspect working out the way that you are made right with God. So once again my expression of salvation is not what saves me. Okay. So then let me then what saves you? Being in Christ, believing in the Lord Jesus as my savior. As my Lord and Savior, accepting him as as Yeah. accepting him as my savior. Accepting his life in exchange for my life. Okay. So, okay, I agree with that. Um, with that assumption, I need something clarified. Since we’re made right by belief in Christ, then why do the

Adventist theology teach that you are judged by the standard of the Ten Commandments? If you’re made right with God, by your faith, why are you being judged by your works, by by the law, by the commandments? Yeah. So, judgment and salvation are not exactly the same, although you’re trying to make them. Are you trying to make them synonymous when we express it that way or when it’s expressed that way? I’m asking how you how you deal with the discrepancy between that? Because if you’re if you’re saved by the fa by your faith in Christ, then why would a person be judged by

Something else other than your faith in Christ? I mean, you’d have to ask James. Uh you’d have to ask Paul. Uh I would say that James uh makes it very clear that it is in the way and the way again I’m not just to be facitious here but the way I the way I express and the way I understand it is that the judgment on our works or the judgment on uh you know keeping the commandments of God or anything like that is it’s not that that’s what saves us. It’s an expression of whether or not so like the way I’ll let me put it this way. Good works doesn’t save you.

Bad works doesn’t save you either. I mean, sorry, it doesn’t unsave you. So then why are you judged by him? Bad works doesn’t unsave you. What those works are showing it’s whether or not you actually had genuine faith. Okay. So followup question. Let me ask a follow. Was that was that did that answer your question? satisfactory. Was that clear? Is that Do you not see that as I I understand what you’re saying. Um seems a little confusing to me, but I think I think I understand. Can I can I please just recclarify my answer? Right. Are you are you are

Married? I’m assuming. Or if not, I’m not sure. But you said your wife. Yes. So, you’re married. Um and uh there are bad marriages, there are good marriages, there are happy marriages, there are sad marriages, right? Mhm. Um does the fact that you said I do and put the ring on and uh you know does that does that then encompass the entire marriage relationship meaning does that take the place of whether or not a marriage does that determine whether or not a marriage is happy or sad or good or bad? What determines a happy marriage? What determines a bad

Marriage? Well, I’m not sure where you’re going with this because I’m not seeing how this says basically saying to you is that how you express that marriage determines whether or not it’s a bad or good marriage. Bad or good relationship. How it’s expressed. So, it has nothing to do with the faithfulness that Christ expressed. That is what I’m saying. Fa Yeah. Faithfulness to Christ expressed is obedience. And that so so here here’s what I think that this is what I’m trying to understand. It it feels like go ahead. Sorry I don’t mean to cut you.

Go ahead. It feels like the standard by which someone is saved because the fundamental beliefs are very clear. They state in the fundamental beliefs that you are saved by grace through faith. But in the very next paragraph, the expectation is yes, except you’re judged by something different. So there there’s I don’t understand the how do you reconcile being judged by a standard that is different than what is required for salvation. Okay. The standard is an expression. It’s it’s it’s just mapping out how God is using an expression of our covenantal

Relationship with him. I mean, if we go into Hebrews 10 or Hebrews 8, when we go into the new covenant, I mean, that’s exactly what it says. When you’re in the covenant relationship with the Lord, it’s going to be expressed as someone who has internalized his law and is carried out in the life. So, are you saved, Matt? I am saved. I believe by faith I am saved. Do you always express that? Do you always express that you are following the ten commandments? So in my own mind and conscience I have a I I express that um I don’t want to get too into the

Personal question because I can see where you’re veering off of it. That’s fine. But I’m not going to use an anecdotal question like that as to I mean I’m just stating with what the scripture says. I mean the purpose of this is what is the role of the purpose of the command of God. So let’s be clear. You’re stating your interpretation of the scripture. Your your interpretation of it is what you’re stating. I no an expression of the scripture. The Christ obeys through me. Okay. But here here is the problem that I see. He gets the glory. He gets the credit. He

Obeys in me. Right now, I do believe also just to again continue to answer is that anyone who’s in a saving relationship with Christ is not going to come to the conclusion and sit there and say that, you know, I perfectly obey him at every hour and every moment and every day. And we need him every moment and every day. That’s how it’s going to be expressed. Hey, I am nothing. He is everything. Right? I I don’t have in my own strength or in my own knowledge that I have the power to carry out his principles without him. It must be him doing it in and through me. That’s my

Belief. That’s what I stand on. Okay. So, thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Let me ask a follow-up question to that. Um, does that imply then by what you’re saying that if you or I struggle with a certain commandment in word, thought, or deed that in some way I am not I’m lacking faith or lacking maturity because it sounds like if I’m if I’m fully in Christ, then how am I going to express it? I’m going to perfectly emulate the law as an expression of my obedience. So, does that mean that if I don’t and I sin, which scriptures clear that all have

Sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, does that mean that now I’m not saved? So, I would say let’s take the focus off of you so much and focus on Christ in those areas that you feel you’re uh you know going against him. Well, but the the standard the fundamental belief believes that you’re going to be judged by the ten commandments. So, if I’m struggling with a particular commandment then I I I I would defer to the topic at hand, right? What is the role of the ten commandments? What is the role of the law of God in life? And your answer is

I have a problem with that. We’re judged by that. Well, I would fundamentally state that we’re not judged by it. But well, we’re judged by the faithfulness of Christ. We’re not judged by the ability of a human to keep a standard that was required for the Israelites and not required for us today. But um does so does the does the faithfulness of Christ not transfer into our lives? Yes. But under the new covenant arrangement. Yes. I I agree. So So is it your understanding that the new covenant is just a renewal of the ten commandments? No. Uh my understanding is that the new

Covenant is Christ in me. the hope of glory and that it’s all him and zero me. So then why am I okay? This is why I’m confused on what you’re saying like that. It’s it’s it’s me. It’s it’s if anything is that if that is happening in my life, uh it is because I because of the indwelling spirit of Christ in me, right? He gets the glory. It’s it’s his obedience. It’s his faith living out through me. And you know the you know I believe Hebrews 4 it’s like you know the work the work is to not get in the way of that. The work is not to work. The work is not

To get in the way of God’s work in you. Um you know we can go to 1 John 2:1. Uh you know you had mentioned you know all have sinned and fall short of the glory. Of course and we are all sinners in need of Christ in the grand scheme of the plan of salvation. Our part is just like Abraham’s part and that’s to believe. But see that does okay I agree. The problem is is that the follow up to that inside the advent system followed by your standard by something different. Okay. You’re judged based on whether or not you believed or not. Okay. I’m okay with that. But that’s not

The ideology that that that I’m summarizing it and generalizing it. Right? Now, let me ask you a question. Let’s take the where this is coming from. Right? Because this this all comes from Abraham. Meaning what we said about hey, you know, you want to do the works of God, you know, be like Abraham, believe, right? Mhm. When Abraham took Hagar and created Ishma, did Abraham express belief or disbelief, but none of that had anything to do with the fact that he was faithful. Just answer the question. Did Abraham express belief or disbelief when he took

Hagar and made a child through Hagar? Mike, it’s technically your control time. So, I just want to remind that and put that put that out there. Yeah. Yeah. I think you’re going down a direction that doesn’t follow the point of the covenant and doesn’t follow the like there’s a this is where I this is where I get really struggle with. It’s very convoluted in the mind of of what saves but what doesn’t save and then judgment and this and you’re judged by this and not that. And so let me just ask in let me let me go down another direction here real quick. Okay. Um in

Your opening statements you mentioned um and this is in the fundamental beliefs as well that uh that the ten commandments are eternal and binding on all humanity. And I think that that is obtained by Exodus 316 and 17 I think is where that usually is is taken. And uh Miles, if you want to put that on the screen, you can. Um, but fundamentally, do do you I just want to hear just make sure I’m understanding. Do you believe that the Ten Commandments are eternally binding on all humans?

I want Yeah. I I when I say binding, meaning it’s it’s it’s still in effect. Okay. And the law Yeah. What I mean by that is that the law of God, the ten commandments law of God was never abolished. Okay. So in that verse that was on the screen, the reference there is that it’s a covenant forever. So it says that in there observing the Sabbath throughout all generations as a covenant forever. And I think this number one I think this is important because the Sabbath becomes very important inside of you know that this whole conversation around covenant

And the fact that this olam the Hebrew word olam for forever is used here to interpret like oh it’s it’s it’s eternally binding. So here’s my question. If that’s the case, why then are the other five instances where this same covenantal forever word language is being used? Why are they not still binding? Circumcision, the Passover, the day of atonement, feast of tabernacles, and the Levitical priesthood. All the same language. Okay, we’ll come back to it. Okay. All right, gentlemen. You guys are doing excellent here. I really appreciate the rigorous back and forth here. Matt, we

Are back to you for control time for 15 minutes. Your final set here. Let Mike get comfortable there. And you know the rules. When you ask or begin asking your first question, your time will start. All right. I I’d like to go back to this Abraham uh experience. Uh could you answer the question that I posed earlier? When Abraham took Hagar and made her a child with her, was Abraham was that an expression of belief in the covenant? Uh, no. But let me follow up with the fact that the Abrahamic covenant was unilateral. So there was nothing that Abraham could have done or not done to

Change the reality covenant. That’s not the question. The question is if Abraham were to be in a sense uh you know because in a sense what you’re what we’re doing when we’re reading these characters I mean we’re you know in a sense judging them right um you know not in a sense condemning them but we’re like we’re assessing like hey this is acceptable this is not acceptable behavior or this is acceptable uh way to live this is not an acceptable way to live do you believe that there is a standard on how to live uh as a believer in Yes, but that standard is not a part of

Your salvation. I didn’t ask that. I know it’s I didn’t say that it was. Like I said, again, I want to make it very clear to the everybody that’s going to be watching this later on. I don’t want this to be, you know, taken out of context and clipped out of what I said. I want to be absolutely clear. The expression of our faith is not what saves us. And I think what’s going on here with a lot of you know a lot of the conf you know a lot of this you know with between non-adventists or you know is the fact that they’re they are they are they are in this false sense of theology that

They think that we teach which we don’t right that you’re saved by works this is not Catholicism I don’t believe that in one bit but there is a distinction that there is a but do you not believe that there’s a do you believe that there’s going to be a separation in is there a separation in in any judgment of Christ? I mean, you look at the parables in Matthew 25, it’s pretty clear there’s a separation between two groups of two people. So, is there a qu So, is there a question or like because Okay. So my question to you was when because you had explained it so I had to

You know go over your explanation but the question is in the experience of Abraham right he did not express belief when he took Hagar okay but he expressed belief when he waited for God’s timing with Sarah. Okay. So, what what’s the question? You have a question for him, Matt? Oh, I just wanted to I just wanted to ask if that was an expression of disbelief or not. And you did answer it. It was Yes, it was an expression of disbelief. So, yes, but I want the audience to understand that the covenant relationship with Abraham and Yahweh was unilateral. So, it wouldn’t have

Mattered how Abraham did certain things. It was all God. So just because he expressed unbelief did not change the promise that’s in the covenantal relationship that between Yahweh and his descendants that we are now all be being able to be a part of because of the fact that Christ came and everything that happened. Okay. His faith was not dependent on God blessing. Okay. That’s the point here. How um how does condemnation who who’s going to get condemned? Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and the faithfulness that he was a perfect blameless lamb slain for us.

Okay. Um and how is that expressed? Can you go to John? How is what expressed? How is not accepting the sacrifice of Christ expressed? Can someone go to John 3:1 19? Can we go there? I mean, it’s expressed by unbelief is the way it’s expressed. Okay. How is that carried out? How’s that unbelief carried out? Can we go to John 3:19? Can you read that? And this is the judgment. The light has come into the world and the people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. Okay. So, in this text, how are what’s the description of the works of those

That are in darkness and con and and uh I know it says judgment, the con and condemned in the context of condemnation. Yeah. So, so first of all, I want to be very careful because I really hate going to one text and I’m not sharing the context of everything that’s going on here. So this is I I’d be really careful to start making a distinction where it just because it says the words were evil does not mean that the works that are being described here is like simple question for you uh Mike does belief uh preede the works in that context let’s let’s do a

Contextual observation of John 3. Yeah. But belief has belief everything to do with your salvation. Your works do not have anything to do with your salvation. Yes. There is an expression of your faith. I get that. Yes. But in in the Adventist system, those two are married together. Listen, you keep thinking Adventist. We can have a listen. We can have a part two where we can talk about the Adventist doctrines. Let’s let’s let’s let’s get into the Bible because I don’t believe there’s a contradiction here and I’m trying to explain to you how it is

Expressed biblically which is where we get these ideas from. Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. So, so my so I don’t want again I’m supposed to be asking the questions, right? So the the question was does belief precede the works and your answer was yes you did I just want to clarify for everybody you did say works with regards to your belief in Christ yeah I mean you’re there are going to be works that you do after you believe in Christ all I’m saying and all I’ all we’re saying as Adventists but again we’re not trying to again I love my my the reason why I’m that’s just give you one reason

Why I’m a seventh day adventist is because of the doctrines and I do believe they’re 100% biblically biblically biblically proofed right um so according to this text your belief is going to be either expressed in you know uh it’s going to come it’s going to result in condemnation or it’s going to result in if you go to the verse before obviously especially in 16 uh or salvation right you that that’s absolutely clear. Hey, your belief is going to result in either eternal life or it’s going to result into condemnation. Correct? Yes. Your belief is what determines

That. Yes. So all I’m Yeah. So that’s nothing. We’re not saying anything different. All we’re saying is that hey, God has a there’s a there’s so do you not Okay. Now let me ask you another question. Does God have a standard or a way written down or in any kind of example within the Bible? Is there a way that God has kind of said and clarified? How does a uh what is a what does the belief in let me put it this way uh how do these two beliefs disbelief and belief what do they look like? Does God have any say in what that looks like? Yeah, he talks about there there’s a lot

Of places that talk about unbelief. Can we go to Ecclesiastes chapter 12? And I know you’re familiar with this verse. Yeah. Can we go to Ecclesiastes 12 and let’s go to So ju just while you’re going there, I I don’t I’m not getting a lot of questions. I’m getting a lot of like you telling me kind of what it is. So, I mean, I’d like to be able to respond to questions that you Okay. Okay. So, let’s let’s let’s All right. So the reason why I wanted to go to Ecclesiastes chapter 12 is because it’s just saying exactly what we’ve been what I’ve been saying. And I think

You’re saying the same thing. I just think you have an issue with the expression of what your belief looks like. And again, we’re not we’re not saved by the expression. I want to make that clear. Okay. But there is an you have a question that I can respond to. Yeah. What would have happened if Abraham didn’t take Sarah? What would have happened? I have no idea. No idea because it did that’s not what happened. So I don’t know. That’s just assuming. So I have no idea. Well, we we we know it. We kind of we don’t have any clues. Didn’t he not take Sarah before?

No, I have no idea. Scripture does not tell that that happened. So what happened when Abraham took Hagar? Was God’s covenant impeded? Was God’s covenant I have a question. I want like Yes, I’m asking you. Okay. The qu the answer is no. He he did not he he took Sarah. Yes, he did take others as well. But I don’t know what your question is. Where are you going? Because again, my problem with this, and here’s my issue with a lot of what happens inside the Adventist framework. The Abrahamic covenant is not the same as the new covenant. You can’t use one covenant and then

Apply that ideology to something else to make it work. That was a an agreement between Abraham and between his seed and his descendants and it was unilateral. So yes, that is a relationship, but that is not the same thing as the Mosaic covenant, which is what the Ten Commandments is instituted in. So it’s not the same. There’s no like I I don’t understand how that’s being applied. And this is fundamentally what what I have learned is most Adventists haven’t done enough study in covenantal theology and what it was like in the ancient near east and why contracts were written

Between gods and between the entity that was in the relationship and that gets skewed when we bring that ideology into our modern way of understanding. Let me let me ask you a question. Can you give us a summary in about 30 seconds of what that is? What do you mean by that? You read it up like about two or three times. What What is the understanding in your an understanding of the covenantal eastern? Uh okay. So laws were only used, it’s no different than today, inside of a relationship between two entities. In the ancient near east, in the Old

Testament, most of the covenantal relationships are between Yahweh and between a group. Okay? It’s no different than today’s arrangements. You and I abide by laws and regulations as US citizens. This is not weird, right? You break the law. Let me finish. Let me finish. Well, I just want to make sure I’m keeping up with you. So, so I just want to summarize what you said. So you’re saying that in the eastern mind of covenants that the covenant uh is between two parties. That’s what you’re basically saying. An agreement between two parties. Yes. And they can be unilateral or they

Can be both were required to do something. Okay. In to say that’s different. And you’re saying that’s different in the new covenant. Well, let me let me finish what’s going on. Okay. So each covenant, whether it’s the Noahic, whether it’s the Davidic, whether it’s the Mosaic, the Sinai covenant, or the new covenant, the way that the law or the agreement is written and how it’s ratified and what parties are involved are different or potentially a an extension of the previous one. The problem is is that there is nowhere in the new covenant that’s ratified by

The blood of Jesus that scripture says that the ten commandments, let alone the 613. Okay, let’s just forget the fact that you’re ripping out all the other 603. Okay. But there is no place that says that the Ten Commandments are a part of that new covenant ratified by the blood of Jesus that now is going to be the standard by which you’re either in or out. There’s nowhere. The standard by which you’re in and out of the covenant is the is is Christ is acceptance of Christ. Correct. But that’s not what that’s not what the Adventist theology teaches.

You’re absolutely right. But that isn’t what the Adventist theology teaches. Yes, it is. And if you look at, and again, we’ll go back to Abraham’s experience. Um, did Paul use Abraham’s experience to explain the righteousness by faith? Did he use Abraham’s experience to explain this kind of anecdotal covenantal uh example? Yeah. For us today, right? Use it heavily. So, as well as James. Sure. Okay. Um did Paul also express that there will be um and again let me ask lead on to it right uh so you don’t think there is a judgment for Christians for believers you believe

That judgment already happened Um, no. I’m not sure where you’re going on that. I mean, there Yeah, we’re there’s a difference between judgment for our reward versus asking that just to get to the point because I want everybody to be clear on this and and this way it gets kind of like pulls out the whole thing is that you’re stating that there’s a difference in you’re saying that there is no judgment or there is a judgment but there’s no difference between judgment and salvation. I’m saying that we are judged by our faithfulness to believing that Christ was faithful.

That is our that is how we are judged from a salvation standpoint. There is a difference between rewards because there are passages that talk about rewards versus salvation. And avenists don’t really have a great great way of expressing that like for them everything is about salvation. It’s all and part of the reason why I’m I’m picking you’re expressing it. Okay. But let me let me just do you believe that Ellen White is actually like well t time Mike before we get off on that time gentlemen wanted to try and let you finish that thought there. All

Right final 15 minutes. You guys are doing really good. This is really good back and forth. I hope you guys are enjoying yourselves. 15 minutes will start for you Mike to control the time when you begin asking your first question before we then transition into closing statements. Okay. So before we ended the last one I was bringing up the idea of the eternality of the law which I I think I understand that you believe that the ten commandments are eternally binding on all humanity. So my question was why or what authority do Adventists have to exclude all the other instances where

Eternal covenant language is used for things like circumcision Genesis 17 the Passover Exodus 12 the day of atonement Leviticus 16 the feast of tabernacles Leviticus 23 and the Levitical priesthood which is Exodus 29. Why are those excluded? But yet the same language for the Ten Commandments is used and yet you just decide that that’s the one that is eternally binding. Okay, good question. Um, and I’m glad you asked that because I did want to get into this. Uh, number one, the New Testament specifically says those ended where but the Ten Commandments are written in

The heart. Where where does where does it say that those are ended? Uh we can go into Colossians 2 I believe and go into believe Ephesians 2 as well. Believe those two state that. So is it your understanding that all of those even though they’re a part of that same covenant relationship that we were talking about all of those that we talked about are a part of Colossians 2:14-16. Okay. By cancelelling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. Okay. Okay. So let let me ask a follow-up question. So your understanding of this

So so so but again you know and again I want to give a bigger answer because I did want to address these 613 laws and why I categorize them into what they are and that’s what they are. Um there are civil laws which are called statutes and judgments. Okay, that’s under a sovereign nation that that no longer exist. Therefore, those laws are no longer binding. And keep in mind that those statutes and judgments again I’m giving the answer here were an expression uh or a specific detailed giving details of how the principles of the ten commandments map out into the daily

Social life. So you have no so you have no problem taking those out of because and the reason why I’m asking this okay is if the audience goes to Exodus 20 where the commandments are given if you reading Exodus 20 21 22 23 all of those are given in the same covenant relationship all of them there is no exclusion going on there is no like this is separate from that and this holds to this okay they’re all a part of the covenant relationship at Si that Yahweh made with the Israelites. All of them. So, by what authority do you have to extract all the others and rip them all

Out when you’re not doing the same thing to the Ten Commandments? Uh Deuteronomy 4:13 specifically mentions the ten commandments being his covenant which he wrote upon two table two tables of stone. Okay but you understand that was the second iteration of the so that was the second time it was given. If you go back to Exodus which is Exodus 20 and just we don’t have time to read it all. Okay. All right. Let’s let’s let’s go into New Testament because I know you’re going to you’re going to you’re going to keep repeating that in the Old Testament keep

Saying that all these things or all these things are part but here’s but here’s the reason why here’s why I here’s why I say this because if God didn’t make a distinction then I wouldn’t have a a justification for it. Okay. Um Hebrews chapter se uh sorry Romans Romans 7 right 7:14 talks about a spiritual law. Mhm. Okay. When you go to Hebrews 9, it also talks about a carnal law. Uh Hebrews 9:10. I don’t know if you want to I don’t know if you can put parallel verses, uh Miles, on the screen. If you can put Romans 7:14 with Hebrews 9:10 at the same time, it would be really good if

You can do that. If you can’t, that’s fine. We cannot. Okay. Uh, so if the Bible didn’t give us the reason to do that, then I wouldn’t have a reason to do that. So, so you’re interpreting, let me go to Roman, let me go to the Romans one real quick. So, you said it was Romans 7:14, just so I understand what you’re trying. That’s context of the ten commandments, by the way. Okay. So, so let me ask the question on this. So are you claiming that the Greek word for commandment here in Romans 7:13 I think it is 14 that that that word there for commandment 14

That is a reference Mike Romans 7:14 okay for we know that the law is spiritual so okay right prior to that it’s talking about the commandment right so are you referring to that the law here is only the ten commandments. Is that what you’re saying? I’m saying that I’m saying that Paul mentioned the seventh commandment in uh in context here. So it is yes. He also talked about the law holy, just and good in verse 12. Okay. So So here’s here’s my here would be my challenge for you. And I don’t know what your 10th commandment sorry 10 tenth commandment with verse seven.

Yeah. So so here here’s where I get really um so you don’t if you don’t know Greek it’s really easy to have word association here and just to think that that Paul is talking about like one I actually so just so you know I have a theology degree um as well that’s fine but I do I do know a little bit of Greek. I mean, I haven’t studied it in a long time in terms of like, you know, consistently like it’s a task. Um, but also keep in mind too that the context is what defines the words as well. It’s not just an isolation of language. Yeah. Right. So, this plays to what we were

Talking about about the Mosaic Sinai covenant. That entire 613 laws inside of that covenant are all one unit. The Jewish nation did not understand that. Oh, no. It’s just the 10. Like, that’s the only thing. So, when Paul is referring to this here, I do agree that he’s referring to in verse 14 when it says the law, I do agree that this is the Mosaic law system, but I think it is a great misuse of scripture to claim that it’s only the tent. That that that misunderstanding. Let me ask you a question. Um, Mike, and I know I’m supposed to be answering the

Question, but I’ll let you finish your statement, but I I I prefer if you ask, you know, questions and you’re making statements. That’s my question was, do you understand the word inle the Greek word here for inle, which is commandment, and then law? Your your original question was where where am I why am I taking away the 603 and leaving the and I gave you scripture answers for that. So, you think that Romans So, what’s your followup? I’m saying that yeah there’s no other law mentioned here in Romans 7 besides the ten commandments that I mean the only law

You find here thou shalt not covet and everything else is you know and regarding lust is all in the ten commandments okay so so just to understand and for the audience that’s watching your interpretation of what Paul is saying here is that when he uses the word in tole he’s only referring he’s knocking all the others out and he’s only referring to the ten commandments here there. Okay. So, this is so this is why this is so interesting because okay there are many places in the Bible including in the New Testament and Old Testament where it defines everything as one law.

Mhm. But there also time but there also distinctions as well and context is what’s going to determine that. Okay. Sometimes you see the circumcision as referred to as the law of the Lord. because it was obviously authored by God himself authored that to you know for Moses to write that but there is a distinction within that between these laws there are ceremonial civil hygienic laws there are moral laws the moral law cannot be punished by civil authorities we can’t we can’t punish for morality in a sense yes when it comes to stealing and all But the moral law in in a in a sense is

Going to be dealt with in the judgment, right? That’s where God’s going to do it. So, so what what I’m saying is that yes, there are many cases where the Bible is using an example that they are all one. But in this context, if you had to sit there and say, well, which law is this talking about? It’s specifically talking about the Ten Commandments. There’s still a difference in terms of one part being spiritual and one part being ceremonial or carnal. Yeah. So, so this is where this is where I think so, so this is what it feels like on the other side. Just so you

Know, is just one law. Yeah. So, so what it what that feels like on the other side from an exogetical standpoint is that it’s okay to pick and choose which one is and isn’t and what’s happening and what isn’t. No, that’s why you have to go. Whereas Paul being a Jew was actually not referring to like only this sect or this group or this small. It’s all this is what the fundamental thing. The Jewish nation did not understand the law system that they were under as a segregated law. It was all What’s your next question? Because I feel like I answered it. And just for

The audience clarity guys, everybody watching this, context determines, not my feeling, not your feeling, not how you feel about the verse or the text. Paul mentions the tenth commandment in verse 7. Context determines what we are looking at. Okay? Paul is not some Chinese fortune cookie just reiterating random things and then we just up to us to figure it out. He actually can give you verse by verse an understanding of what he means. And if you don’t understand or read the context, you’re going to not you’re going to have these, you know, great ideas, but just not

Biblical, which is what I believe you’re I believe you’re in that zone right now. Yeah. Yeah. And and I know I’m supposed to ask questions, but I feel like I need to respond because that what you’re stating might sound great, but it’s actually a misuse of the actual text because Paul is talking about the Mosaic system laws, not about like just the 10 that he wouldn’t even understand segregating them out. So I understand context does define Okay. Can you can you but what what I’m trying to clarify here is that the ten commandments were never given outside of all 613. Never. There’s

Never a place where they’re given outside of all the other Levitical laws, unclean clean laws, sacrificial laws, all the other laws were all a part of the covenant. But the Adventist theology likes to rip all the other ones out and only deal with the 10. And here and here’s my follow-up question because I’m going to go to a question. Okay. Yeah, let’s go to questions because I know that was because that’s incorrect what you said. So, the fundamental beliefs the fundamental beliefs outline that the 7th day advenist system for tithes and offerings

Which are all built on the Levitical model that was actually given by Ellen White and in her kind of ordained stamp for it. How do you respond when a system of giving which is required? It’s part of the belief system. It’s an it’s an obligation for an avenist to tithe. How do you respond to the fact that that is based on the Levitical law that is done away with in your own framework? Uh so again your question regarding reiterate the question again just because I was looking. Go ahead. Sorry say one more time. fundamental beliefs outlined the seventh

Adventist system of tithes and offerings which is based on the Levitical model for tithes and offerings. How do you respond to the argument that this system is rooted in the old covenant which is no longer an obligation? You’re saying that all those laws and you can also respond to clean and unclean as well. Yeah. So I’m going to say that this is not on the topic of our discussion. The topic is what is the role or the purpose of the ten commandments? I understand you want to commandments. Okay. But we’re talking about the ten commandments. Okay.

All right. Let’s figure So we can listen I’m happy to come back on. We can do another part and discuss tithing and discuss all of that. And I read your responses that we’ve been I want to stay on topic and I’d appreciate if our moderator kept us there as well. we we want to stay with the with with the topic at hand why everybody tuned in. So the irony on that is that we were talking about all the other things as well for quite some time, but then when I pressured you on this particular question, all of a sudden it wasn’t something relevant. Again, you’re bringing in outside

Topics. We didn’t bring in the outside topics. I mean, you asked about why are we as Adventist or why do I determine that in the new covenant, it’s talking about the ten commandments and not the other. So let me ask you I I heard the bell. I know we have one minute. You’re the one asking questions. I think we’re going to be 30 seconds. Um, if I can break the rule, I mean, what laws are in the new covenant, the laws of Christ? What is that? What is that? They’re all laid out in the gospels. Love, grace, how we how we treat other people, all that stuff is laid out. But

The one law that isn’t laid out is the Sabbath command. It’s not nowhere in there. All right, gentlemen. Gentlemen, I know we could probably go for another hour. This has been a good lively discussion. I appreciate both of you guys being here. This was uh this was good. Um this was good. So again, thank you guys for both being here. Matt, we’ll start with you since uh or rather Mike, sorry, we’ll start with you since uh Matt started in the openings. You will have five minutes for your closing thoughts. Any final things you want to share? and the time will start

When you begin speaking, sir. Awesome. Hey, thank you for the opportunity. Uh hopefully this was helpful. I just want to just final thoughts. I want everyone to understand that it is really important when you’re studying law to understand the context of the ancient neareastern covenantal relationship between God and an entity. It’s very clear if you study the covenants that the ten commandments which is the topic for this evening if kept in their context the ten commandments are a part of the mosaic covenant. That Mosaic covenant very clearly is given to the Israelite

Nation. I don’t know how many of you I’m not Israelite. I’m not Jewish. I’m a gentile. Um, so when you extract, first of all, when you divide and cut apart the law, I would argue that you’re you’re not really keeping the law in its context. You’re making it apply to what you want it to to work for you. All 613 were a part of the unit, the entire covenantal relationship that was between the Israelite nation exclusively and Yahweh. When we go to the new covenant which was prophesied about in Jeremiah and I believe Ezekiel, when we go to the new covenant which is ratified in the blood

Of Christ, it’s very clear and I think Matt and I would would agree on this point. How do we how are we made right with God? What is our responsibility in that? Well, nothing except belief in his faithfulness. anytime you add and my challenge here is is a little bit difficult with the avenous terminology because yes there is an expression of our love for God absolutely but there has to be a clear distinction between law or our expression of the law and gospel there you cannot unite the two if the gospel is that Jesus Christ was faithful he was the lambless lamb slain for us.

If we believe on that on him, then we are saved. Nothing that we do from that is a part of our salvation. Um so it’s very very clear that the new covenant which is a covenantal relationship between all humanity is a unilateral covenant. It is all Jesus and his faithfulness. It is not based on our own works or as Matt mentioned, our expression of how we’re saved because our sinful nature is always going to express Paul talked about this. He wrestled with the flesh. He wrestled with things constantly. There’s never going to be a point at which we prior to

Glorification ever truly express our glorified bodies until that event. So the new covenant is all Jesus. It’s not us. Our belief in what Jesus did and his faithfulness is what saves us. Yes, the the Bible does talk New Testament does talk about Jesus talks about the laws of Christ or the laws of Messiah which is all about how we interact with our neighbors, how we interact with each other, how we image the body of Christ. But none of that has any connection or implications to our salvation. And I know the common rebuttal to that is, “Oh, you’re just an antonyomian.” No,

That’s not what’s going on. The law plays an important role. The law is supposed to point out sin. It’s supposed to show us our need of a savior. But the law never saves us. It only condemns. That’s what Paul talked about. So because of Christ’s faithfulness, we now do not have to be under the condemnation of the law. Instead, we are under Christ. We are unified with Christ. And therefore, we can rest assured that we are saved. Does that mean we’re going to be perfect? No, it does not. Does that mean we need to treat other people as Christians and as images of Christ?

Absolutely. But it’s always important to separate the two. Your expression is not what saves you. It isn’t an indication of your salvation. It isn’t this. The ten commandments are not the standard by which you’re saved. You are saved by your faithfulness in Christ and only in Christ’s work on the cross. All right. Thank you for that, Mike. Matt, the same thing will now be extended to you. You will have five minutes, sir, for any of your closing remarks. All right. So, first off, thank you so much, Miles, and everybody watching and thank you, Mike, for this uh this lively

Discussion. Um, I just want to reiterate again, and I appreciate you using my phrase that what what uh um our expression of our faith is not what saves us is exactly what I said in the beginning. Um, I never said the law saves us. And I want to make it perfectly clear that the distinction between the law of God as the ten commandments versus the law of Moses as the other I guess 613 or sorry 603 is a distinction that Paul himself emphatically makes in Ephesians chapter 2 where he literally talks about in verse 15 that what was abolished in the flesh of Christ was the enmity even the

Law of commandments contained in ordinances. the law of commandments contained in ordinances which he refers to again in Hebrews 9 as a carnal law. So there is a distinction although in the context of the Jewish economy when they were in a sovereign nation it was all under one because obviously they were in a you know in a in a in a theocracy. However, there was always a distinction between the moral law of God, the ten commandments as expressed by him and written by his own finger versus the other ones which were abolished at the cross, which is

Emphatically what it says. The new covenant, by the way, is the law of God written in our hearts, not written in stone. Right? That’s the new covenant experience. That’s what 2 Corinthians 3 is, is that the new covenant is highlighting the glorious ministry of Christ. that what Christ did is what what we couldn’t do because we were weak sinful human beings and that what Christ did is that he bridged that gap. He obeyed in our behalf and when a believer accepts Christ his obedience becomes any obedience that we do is is really his obedience. The focus is not on us. The

Focus is always on him. It’s always on his righteousness and it’s always on his love for us. the summary that he brought about the laws of Christ are love uh is correct and in Romans 13 we he reiterates that hey what is summarized as that is the six commandments after the fourth one 5 6 7 8 9 10 that those commandments are summarized as love your neighbor as yourself right these principles God has always had they were eternally from even you know even in the time of garden of Eden um when we look in the Bible we have to understand that he or others would like to look at the

Context of ancient neareastern uh you know mindset and culture as opposed to the context of the Bible like in Romans 7. There was a clear example where he’d rather look at the context of culture instead of the context of the scripture. Right? Paul in Romans 7 was absolutely clear that the law that he was referring to was the ten commandment law. That law is spiritual. That law is good and just and holy. And that law expresses God’s love to us and our reciprocating love to him. I asked him earlier and I’ll say this again. In a faithful relationship, how that

Relationship is expressed is in how we treat that faithful covenant is how we what we do with it. The way Abraham expressed his faithfulness to the covenant of the Lord was obviously in letting in in in you know letting God have his time with Sarah. the way he didn’t express his his faithfulness to that is him choosing Hagar and that was an expression of unbelief and all we’re saying and you look into Revelation and all throughout what’s not in the city of God are uh all sorts of people who have all sorts of uh you know rebellious issues mongers and and

Abominations and things like that liars even right these are all expressions of the ten commandments all I’m saying is that our focus in our life is not geared towards just hey am I obeying the ten commandments or not. And and that’s how I live my life. It is not once you have Christ in your heart, these things will automatically be fulfilled out as long as you let it happen. God’s law is not something that you can just check off. It is something that’s going to constantly be expressed in your life. Right? We have the laws written in our hearts and it expressed by this

Indwelling spirit when we accept him and we accept uh his love and his grace and his faith for us. That’s how it’s expressed. It’s all we’re saying. We’re not saying you’re saved by the law. Uh but the law is definitely has an important part uh because it identifies that God is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure. Not ours, not my work. It is not me that is mustering up the strength to do it. It is God that works in you. And every believer in Christ, if you’ve truly accepted Christ, you will see that yes, there are now things that you are aware

Of that you probably weren’t aware of that you were, you know, in a uh, you know, sinning relationship with someone or whatever the case is. And all of a sudden, your conscience now is awakened and now you’re starting to feel the spirit purge these things from your life.