Waldensians & Adventism: Examining Shaky Historical Claims

Hey there. As always, thank you for being here and a warm welcome, especially if this is your first time with us. Tonight, we’re going to be looking at something that is of particular interest to myself as a Presbyterian, and that is Peter Waldo and his followers, who are known as the Waldenzians or the Waldenzes. If you grew up in Adventism or have read Ellen White’s The Great Controversy, you will recall that the Waldenzes are who Ellen White appeals to in a chain of other individuals that form a connection back to ancient Christianity. At that point

In the story, chapter 4, the protagonist character, the SDA church, has not come onto the scene yet, and the story is still building to that climax. This is to say, the SDA church is allegedly at the end of this chain of figures that were used by God to restore apostolic Christianity. With the SDA church being the final end times group of apostolic Christianity truly restored, free from any of that uh Roman Catholic Babylonian theology. Recently on the SDA church’s YouTube channel, SDA President Ted Wilson and his wife made a short video in a series of videos that they have

Been releasing where they give an overview of each chapter of the great controversy. Well, tonight we are going to look at the one for the Waldenzas chapter 4 because what you’ll notice is that if some of the central claims that Ellen White makes about them are false, this drives a deadly wound not only to the validity of the great controversy being inspired by God, but it strikes a serious blow to the framework of the entire SDA telling of history. Now, it’s important to note that Ellen White was utilizing some of uh the 1859 historical work of SDA pioneer JN Andrews to arrive

At her claims regarding the Waldenzas. This is to say that this subject is not exempt from her uh very decorated track record of utilizing other individuals and then attributing it to God. But before we get into all of that, I want to remind you that if you like what we’re doing here, you can support us by joining our membersonly section, by clicking that little join button down below the video, or by visiting our channel homepage where you’ll find the same one. For about a coffee a month, you can join our growing crew, engage in our workshop style live streams, and

Access our growing library of membersonly content. It’s your support that makes a huge difference in fulfilling our mission to equip as many Christians as possible to reach as many Seventh Day Adventists as possible with the true Christ and his gospel. With that said, let’s get into it. Greetings, friends. Today, my wife Nancy is joining us as we explore the inspiring story of the Walden Seas recorded in chapter 4 of The Great Controversy by Ellen G. White. In every age, there have been faithful witnesses for God, men, women, youth, and children

Who remain faithful to God’s word no matter what the consequences might be. This was true in Bible times as well as throughout the history of the Christian church. In the early centuries of the dark ages, as papal power sought to bring the entire world under its control, groups of faithful believers were still letting their lights shine as they stayed true to Bible truth. Of these groups, the Walden sees were perhaps the most well-known. They served during a time of great darkness as a faithful link between the ancient apostolic faith and the reformation that came centuries

Later. The Waldenians lived in the valleys and mountains of the Piedmont Alps, a beautiful area of northwest Italy, bordering Switzerland to the northeast and France to the west. For centuries, Christians here were able to worship according to their conscience. But the time came when Rome insisted upon their submission. It was then that the prophecy recorded in Revelation 12 13 and 14 was fulfilled. Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a

Great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness to her place where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the presence of the serpent. In symbolic language, we understand the woman represents God’s true church who flees to the mountains where she is nourished by God’s word for 1,260 years during the dark ages of papal oppression. All right. So, the Waldenzians are appealed to as a faithful group in their day and age. They were faithful to God in his word, they said. Yet, if you affirm what the Waldenzians do today, you’re damned to predition. Because yes,

The Waldenzians are still around. They’re not some extinct people group like Ted so rudely refers to them as. But apparently, the Waldenzians got a pass in the 1400s because, well, present truth. The Waldenzians only had so much light and more has been given to the SDA church than anyone else. And it supposedly built upon what the Waldenzas believed in certain areas. But now the SDAs, whose theology looks absolutely nothing like the theology of the Waldenzians, they’re somehow attached to the Waldenzians because in the present day they’re supposedly the ones carrying

The torch of standing for God and the truth of scripture. And this is why the SDA church’s appeal to the Waldenzians is not only silly, but inconsistent. TED says that they were faithful to Bible truth. Yet 95% of Waldenzian theology contradicts Adventist theology. This is why I say Adventists need to study actual church history, not great controversy history. Because the great controversy is a very carefully crafted re-imagining of actual history, an adaptation, if you will, that writes the 7th Adventist movement into the narrative as the protagonist character. It’s a story.

It’s not history. But he mentioned Revelation 12:13 uh through 14. An SDA staple proof text used for all sorts of things. But note, Ted, nothing in that verse says what you guys claim it says. And I’m going to continue pointing this out. You guys think that’s what’s being said by the verse, but it doesn’t say what you claim it says. That’s your guys’s interpretation of the text. And because Ellen White gave this interpretation, you all take that as a divinely inspired one and believe it to be what the text is saying without question. Your guys’s interpretation doesn’t even

Take the entire Eastern branch of the Christian church into consideration. Assumes the whole world was under a one world governance of Romanism, which isn’t accurate. The great controversy worldview, folks, is predicated upon a western paradigm exclusively. Nothing in Revelation 12 says anything about the Waldenzians. And this is coming from the same individual Ted Wilson that has told us the only approved hermeneutic in the SDA church is the historical grammatical method. The church accepts only I want to underline that only the historical biblical or historical grammatical

Method of interpreting scripture allowing the Bible to interpret itself line upon line verse upon verse precept upon precept through the power of the Holy Spirit. All right, Ted. So, let’s see you utilize that and explain to us how the original audience that John wrote to would have understood him to be talking about the Waldenzians in the 1400s cuz that’s part of utilizing the HGM. How would the initial audience have understood what was being written to them and then you make present- day applications based after establishing that? But this is their attempt to say that

Revelation 12 is talking about Satan being angry with the true church and persecuting it, namely the Roman Catholic Church, which sent the true church into the wilderness until protorotestants like the Waldenzians were raised up by God out of that wilderness. They then try and chain themselves to that group, which again is silly. Even if we granted them their symbols and interpretation, they’re in no way, shape, or form anything like the Waldenzians theologically, as we will see in a moment. While we don’t have time here to fully unpack this Bible

Prophecy, to learn more, I encourage you to visit the URL shown at the bottom of the screen. Because of papal oppression, the faithful Walden sees were forced to retreat deeper into the mountains where they could worship God according to their beliefs founded upon the written word of God. We are told the Waldenes were among the first of the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the holy scriptures hundreds of years before the reformation. They possessed the Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. Because the Walden seas had access to

The Bible in their native language even during a time when scripture was banned by the Roman church. They knew its teachings and instructed their children in God’s truths, including the Bible Sabbath and the perpetuity of God’s law, the assurance of Christ’s sacrificing atonement, his role as our only mediator, and more. So again, Ted recognizes that the Waldenzians were learned in the word of God and instructed it to their children, but that had an expiration date. They were only learned in the word of God in so much as the protagonist 7th Day

Adventists haven’t shown up yet with the fullness of the truth that supposedly builds upon the Waldenzians who theologically look absolutely nothing like the Seventh Day Adventists. But what did Ted appeal to as the basis for his claim? Or rather, what did Ellen White appeal to? Cuz that’s what they’re going over here. What was the basis of the claim that they were learned in the word of God? The Bible Sabbath and the perpetuity of the law of God. Ah, so the classic claim that the Waldenzians were 7th Day Sabotarians supposedly. First, let’s look at the direct quote or a

Couple of direct quotes and then I want you to look at the appendex of this chapter of the book that they’re giving an overview for. Notice what Ellen White says. Amid the gloom that settled upon the earth during the long period of papal supremacy, the light of truth could not be wholly extinguished. In every age, there were witnesses for God. men who cherished faith in Christ as the only mediator between God and man, who held the Bible as the only rule of life, and who hallowed the true Sabbath, how much the world owes to these men, posterity will never know. And again,

Later in the chapter, she writes, “Among the leading causes that had led to the separation of the true church from Rome was the hatred of the latter toward the Bible Sabbath. As foretold by prophecy, the papal power cast down the truth to the ground. The law of God was trampled in the dust, while the traditions and customs of men were exalted. The churches that were under the rule of the papacy were early compelled to honor the Sunday as a holy day. Amid the prevailing error and superstition, many, even of the true people of God, became so bewildered that while they observed

The Sabbath, they refrained from labor also on the Sunday. But this did not satisfy the papal leaders. They demanded not only that Sunday be hallowed, but that the Sabbath be profigned. and they denounced in the strongest language those who dared to show it honor. It was only by fleeing from the power of Rome that any could obey God’s law in peace. So very plainly she states that the Waldenzians hallowed the true Sabbath they were supposedly 7th day sabotarians. Not just that but the leading cause of separation between the true church and Satan’s church Roman

Catholicism was the 7th day Sabbath. wherein she then refers to their interpretation of Daniel 7 to say that it foretold of the Pope doing this. But all of that to say, this is what God allegedly showed Ellen White, who claimed that the words in this book are barricaded by a thus saith the Lord. Well, now notice the appendix that the White Estate added to this claim with the heading the Sabbath among the Waldenzes. They write, “There are writers who have maintained that the Waldenzes made a general practice of observing the 7th day Sabbath. This

Concept arose from sources which in the original Latin described the Waldenzes as keeping the das dominical or Lord’s day Sunday but in which through a practice which dates from the reformation the word for Sunday has been translated Sabbath. Ah, so Ellen didn’t realize that when they used the word Sabbath, it was actually referring to the first day because the Waldenzians are not just were are first day sabotarians which predates even the use of this language by some of the uh Protestant reformers and the Puritans. But because of Jane Andrews, Ellen White

Caught wind of them using the word Sabbath and she read into that that they were 7th day sabotarians. But then they continue by giving their rebuttal to this. But there is historical evidence of some observance of the 7th day Sabbath among the Waldenzes. A report of an inquisition before whom were brought some Waldenzas of Moravia in the middle of the 15th century declares that among the Waldenzes not a few indeed celebrate the Sabbath with the Jews. There can be no question that this source indicates the observance of the 7th day Sabbath. Ah so

Because someone documented that some Waldenzians celebrated with some Jews at some point. Don’t worry about referring to their actual source documents that, you know, don’t talk about the 7th day Sabbath like we claim. No, no, no. There’s a historical document somewhere that says, well, during one of the crusades, some uh some of them observed the seventh day Sabbath with some Jews, therefore they were seventh day sabotarians. Never mind the fact that in their own writings when they use the word Sabbath, well, it was referring to uh the Lord’s day, the first day, because well, they

Are first day sabotarians. Folks, this is 100% false and can be verified as the Waldenzians are still around today. Furthermore, we have the confession of faith that the Waldenzians affirm and that their ministers still have to uphold to this day to hold office within their church. The Waldenzian churches are reformed. The Adventist church is not reformed. They don’t align with reformed theology, but the Waldenzians align themselves with the Presbyterian churches. In Latin, they were called the Mtor Reformationus. Ignore my uh butchering of the accent

There, but it means mother of the Reformation. This is because they were around before the Middle Ages, but were not a formal assembly. More than likely why Ellen White and the pioneers are trying to appeal to them in this area as some sort of ground layer for them to eventually build upon. But it’s very vague and very general. But in 1559, the Waldenzians adopted the Hugenot Confession of Faith. Again, ignor ignore my pronunciation, but it’s known as the de la Rochelle, the French confession of faith. In 1655, so almost 100 years later, they formulated their own confession which

Was quickly drafted into Italian immediately after their massacre which was mentioned which is historically known as Pedmont’s eers. This was a shortened version in Italian of that Hugenot confession of faith which confirms that the theology of the Waldenzians align with Presbyterians. But notice what Adventist World and Adventist publication notice what they claim in an article on this subject. So after trying to say that the Waldenzians were initially 7th day sabotarians, the author writes, “What led the Waldenzians of Northern Italy to give up

Sabbathkeeping?” Obviously referring to the 7th day Sabbath. The answer goes back to the time of the Reformation. In 1532 at a meeting between the Waldenzians and representatives of the French Reformation held in the Valley of Anga, most of the Waldenzians voted to join the French Reformation. Consequently, they stopped training their itinerant preachers or barbs at the College of the Barbs in Prael Touro and instead sent their pastoral candidates to Geneva, Switzerland to be educated by John Calvin and his associates. Calvin believed that the Sabbath still had spiritual

Significance, but that the literal seventh day was ceremonial and a shadow, basing his views on the same scriptural passages as the Inquisitor had used against the Waldenzians. The new generation of pastors educated under Calvin no longer taught the seventh day Sabbath, but Sunday as the day of worship. Ah, so John Calvin’s the culprit, one of their favorite boogeymen to pin things on. The Waldenzians were apparently staunch 7th day Sabotarians carrying the 7th day Sabbath torch through history until their pastors stopped being taught in Italy and had to

Study in Geneva where that evil John Calvin was raising hell and he apparently made them change their beliefs. And it was him that caused them to stop observing the 7th day Sabbath. Baloney. This is fiction which is why the article doesn’t even try and provide any sort of citation for this claim. Even SDA scholar Samuel Bakyoki, one of the primary individuals the SDA church tasked with finding historical evidence to the change of the Sabbath being before the fifth century, had this to say. I spent several hours searching for an answer in the two scholarly volumes

Of history of the Waldenzas, authored by Amido Molnar and Austo Hugan. These two books were published in 1974 by the Claudiana, which is the official Italian Waldenzian publishing house. They are regarded as the most comprehensive history of the Waldenzes. To my regret, I found no illusion whatsoever to Sabbathkeeping among the Waldenzes. Adventists won’t even listen to their own scholars, folks. They’ll still continue to try and put forth this lie because they have to have this. So instead, they’ll label people like Bakyoki a Jesuit plant and an

Infiltrator to to try and take the lowhanging fruit approach. But no, Adventists, I’m sorry. The Waldens is were not and are not 7th Day Sabotarians and their theology is not a friend of Seventh Day Adventism as it pertains to the perpetuity of the law. Again, no Ted, they do not mean the same thing you guys do. So, it is superficial to try and make this appeal. Notice what their confession says regarding the view of the law. Paragraph 23. We believe that the ordinances of the law came to an end at the advent of Jesus Christ. But although the ceremonies are no more in

Use, yet their substance and truth remain in the person of him in whom they are fulfilled. And moreover, we must seek aid from the law and the prophets for the ruling of our lives as well as for our confirmation in the promises of the gospel. Ah, right. It’s the standard Presbyterian view of the law of God, which is really just the standard classically Protestant view. Jesus Christ is the substance of it all. And none of the law is technically abregated but actually fulfilled and upheld in the person of Jesus Christ who is the substance that all of it pointed to. The

Moral aspects of the law still provide a strong baseline for upstanding living. Meaning it is morally upstanding to not lie, to not murder, etc. But this is their recognition of the law gospel distinction. Again, a universal of the Protestant Reformation with numerous others, not just the Waldenzas prior to the reformers also accepting and recognizing this from scripture. The SDA church does not agree with the Waldenzian understanding of the law of God. The Waldenzians agree with the classically Protestant view, which is that the law does have valid uses, but

Reconciliation is not one of them. Which is what the SDA church teaches, and it’s why I’m constantly hammering this point. That obedience to the law, empowered by your faith in Jesus, will ultimately bring about the fulfillment of the law in your life, which will silence Satan’s accusations that the law can’t be kept. You’ll vindicate God’s character in the great controversy and will be rewarded with eternal life because of that. That’s how you’re ultimately reconciled to God in the Adventist system. No, the Waldenzians did not believe anything

Close to this, nor do they. In fact, they would consider such to be damnably heretical. It’s an unlawful use of the law, mixing law and gospel. The SDA church really needs to stop trying to rewrite history and make superficial appeals to others to try and make it appear like there’s some sort of consistent link or connection point there when there isn’t. None of the groups or individuals that the that that they appeal to had a great controversy worldview. Not Martin Luther, not Yan Hus, not the Waldenzians, etc. But I appreciate Ellen White letting us know

That God showed her that the Waldenzians kept the true Sabbath and we know that they considered the first day to be the Christian Sabbath. But furthermore, the Waldenzians were not protoanabaptists. And this is important as well, meaning they didn’t agree with the SDA church regarding the radical separation of church and state, but that the civil magistrates were bound to uphold and observe the law of God as the objective baseline for morality. It was the Anabaptists who believed in a radical separation of church and state such that there’s literally almost virtually zero

Crossover at all. Any crossover is a fear of back into Romanism etc. Yeah, the Waldenzians were not aligned with the Anabaptists on that. But the SDA church is like that with the Anabaptists. But the the Waldenzians for their position were appealing to places such as Romans 14 where Paul implies that the civil government is an ordained office of God. But they only have sovereignty over a specific sphere that God has designated. So as God’s deacon or servant in the world, they are liable to Jesus Christ who is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Jesus is the head of all

The earthly governing rulers and authorities. And part of the call of the Christian is to tell them you’re not immune from this. Jesus is who you’re ultimately accountable to and you should be uh enacting your God-given role because government is a God-given role. Understanding that Jesus is your head as well and you are responsible to him which means you should be seeing what he says is the baseline for what is right and what is wrong, not your own arbitrary standard. But all that to say, the SDA church does not agree with this use. In fact, they point to people such

As the Puritans who greatly aligned with the Waldenzians view of the law of God and claim those individuals were the forerunners of bringing about what Ellen White speculated regarding the end times. It’s the modern-day individuals that align with the Waldenzian view of the law of God that the conspiratorial-minded SDAs point to to try and claim those people are fulfilling Bible prophecy regarding the implementing of God’s law at the government level, which is going to bring about a national Sunday law, etc. But notice articles 39 and 40 of the

French Confession. We believe that God wishes to have the world governed by laws and magistrates so that some restraint may be put upon its disordered appetites. And as he has established kingdoms, republics, and all sorts of principalities, either hereditary or otherwise, and all that belongs to a just government, and wishes to be considered as their author, so he has put the sword into the hands of magistrates to suppress crimes against the first as well as against the second table of the commandments of God. We must therefore on this account not only

Submit to them as superiors, but honor and hold them in all reverence as his lieutenants and officers whom he has commissioned to exercise a legitimate and holy authority. We hold then that we must obey their laws and statutes, pay customs, taxes, and other dues, and bear the yoke of subjection with a good and free will, even if they are unbelievers. provided that the sovereign empire of God remain intact. Therefore, we detest all those who would like to reject authority to establish community and confusion of property and overthrow the order of

Justice. This would send most SDAs into a complete tail spin, asserting that this is a mingling of church and state, which is a major Adventist no because they are more in line with the Anabaptists, not the reformers. The reformers did not believe. The Waldenzians did not believe. Then this radical separation of church and state like the Anabaptists did. That’s who the SDA church aligns with. As even people like SDA historian George Knight recognizes in his book, Search for identity. But the point being, no. The appeal by the SDA church and the white

Estate and Ellen White to the Waldenzians is superficial at best and deceptive at worst. Because copies of the Bible were rare, the Walden Seas committed its precious words to memory. Many were able to repeat large portions of the Old and New Testament by heart. The youth were trained to write out the scriptures, carefully copying from the precious manuscripts. Some of these copies contain the whole Bible, others only brief selections. We read, “By patient, untiring labor, sometimes in the deep, dark caverns of the earth, by the light of torches, the

Sacred scriptures were written out verse by verse, chapter by chapter. Thus the work went on, the revealed will of God shining out like pure gold. Angels from heaven surrounded these faithful workers.” So again, Waldenzians knew their Bibles, had entire portions of it memorized. Yet, if you’re a modern-day Waldenzian, and an Adventist comes and shares their special present truth message that only they have with them, they’ll be damned for rejecting it. You’ll recall we’ve done a fuller stream responding to Ted Wilson uh with regards to this entire

Great controversy chain. And you’ll remember when he talks about the Waldenzians, he says one of the problems was they didn’t continue reforming. They didn’t continue reading their Bibles in the 1300s and the 1400s with the Waldensian people with John Hus with Martin Luther each bringing a particular understanding adding to the collective pure truth of God to the people of God. Do you know now why there are so many denominations? Because the Waldensians stopped where they were. They said the Bible and the Bible only is truth. But they didn’t keep studying the doctrines

Of the Bible. Yet here we’re told they were apparently just Bible connoisseurs. Had entire portions of it memorized. They were teaching it to their kids. They were these great people even though they’re still around today, but it’s not the case anymore because, well, present truth. Adventists are supposed to be connected to the Waldenzians through theology. Ted tells us they are forced into this predicament because of Ellen White. Otherwise, they wouldn’t even mention them. But because Ellen White claimed the words in the great controversy are barricaded by a thus sayeth the Lord, uh

They are stuck in this predicament and they exalt her writings to a divinely inspired status. While the Wald densities lived in secluded places, they understood the importance of interacting with those outside their inner circle and long to lighten the heavy burdens placed on society by sharing with them the truths of God’s word. While Densian youth trained from early childhood to be faithful to God were sent to universities in France and Italy. Hidden in their garments were the precious Bible manuscripts. Carefully they shared the scriptures with those whose hearts seemed open to

Receive the truth. We are told converts to the true faith were one in these institutions of learning and frequently its principles were found to be permeating the entire school. Yet the papal leaders could not by the closest inquiry traced the so-called corrupting heresy to its source. In addition, young men wishing to be Waldenian ministers were required to serve three years as a missionary before being assigned a church at home. These missionaries went out two by two. A young man paired with an older, more experienced man who was responsible for

The youth’s training. These missionaries carried out their work under the cover of a secular calling, usually that of a merchant or peddler. They carried attractive goods from faraway countries, but hidden within their clothing were copies of the Bible. Prayerfully and with spirit-led discernment, these missionaries shared their most precious treasure with their customers. And many burdens were lifted from the hearts of sinick, weary souls. Yes. And Ted, they weren’t sharing the same Christ or gospel that you guys are. Notice again their confession of faith.

We believe that by the perfect sacrifice that the Lord Jesus offered on the cross, we are reconciled to God and justified before him. For we cannot be acceptable to him, nor become partakers of the grace of adoption, except as he pardon all our sins and blotss them out. Thus we declare that through Jesus Christ we are cleansed and made perfect by his death we are fully justified and through him only can we be delivered from our iniquities and transgressions. So, the Waldenzians would categorically reject the investigative judgment, which like we saw a couple weeks ago, the SDA

Church and her scholarship includes in the gospel. When they use the word atonement, they mean the investigative judgment in heaven. Yeah. No, this entirely conflicts with what the Waldenzians affirm as the atonement and what they believe the gospel to be. We also see that they believe that one is reconciled to God strictly on the basis of Jesus Christ’s work. Nothing of ourselves. No, not even obedience, even though they weren’t antonyomians or against obedience. This flies in the face, folks, of testimonies for the church, volume 4, page 294. We have

Looked at this a lot, where Ellen White plainly writes that man is reconciled to God by faith and obedience to the law. While Denzians categorically reject this, and yes, it matters. Notice they also affirm the complete abrogation of sins in the completed work of Christ. Not just past sins or sins up to a certain point, total remission. And it’s because of this work that they can say a person is present tense reconciled. Because that’s what Romans 5 teaches. This is simply a reiteration of Romans 5. Which is why they then continue in the next paragraph to lay this out

Further. We believe that all our justification rests upon the remission of our sins, in which also is our only blessedness, as saith the psalmist. We therefore reject all other means of justification before God, and without claiming any virtue or merit, we rest simply in the obedience of Jesus Christ, which is imputed to us as much to blot out all our sins as to make us find grace and favor in the sight of God. And in fact, we believe that in falling away from this foundation, however slightly, we could not find rest elsewhere, but should always be troubled. For as much

As we are never at peace with God till we resolve to be loved in Jesus Christ, for of ourselves we are worthy of hatred. They reject all other means of justification before God that don’t strictly rest on Jesus Christ and his perfect obedience. His righteousness is imputed in full and we have favor in God’s sight strictly on the perfect person and work of Jesus. Again, this flies in the face of what the SDA church teaches, which is that one is justified initially by grace through faith, but then maintains that justification before God based on the sinner’s obedience, not

Christ’s perfect obedience alone. Notice from the Seventh Adventist Church’s pre-earth origin story, after the fall of man, Jesus proposes a plan to the father of how man can return to the favor of God. Ellen White writes, “The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with his father. Three times he was shut in by the glorious light about the father, and the third time he came from the father, his person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shown with benevolence and loveliness, such as

Words cannot express.” He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that he had been pleading with his father and had offered to give his life a ransom and take the sentence of death upon himself that through him man might find pardon that through the merits of his blood and obedience to the law of God they could have the favor of God and be brought into the beautiful garden and eat of the fruit of the tree of life. What the SDA church teaches in this key area is in total conflict with what the Waldenzians believe. So to say

That they were these great Bible students being led by God, why did that stop? When did it stop? Why is a Waldenzian now damned to predition because Ellen White supposedly received visions in the 19th century that gave you guys some new light and now everyone’s just bound to accept that the Waldenzian confessions were already established and underway during the periods in which Ted and his wife are referencing. Makes no sense. Filled with joy, these happy souls returned home praising God, ready to share the scriptures and diffuse light wherever they went. And in this way,

God’s truth spread across Europe and beyond. But all was not well in the powerful halls of Rome. Determined to stamp out heresy, the papacy initiated crusades against these humble people. And under the guise of defending the church, men, women, and children were driven from their homes, hunted like animals, tortured mercilessly, and killed in the most cruel and inhumane ways. Nevertheless, those who survived continued sharing scriptural truth. Determined to rid the earth of this hated sect forever, the Pope issued a public decree known as a papal bull, condemning the Waldensians

As heretics and demanding their slaughter. Incentives such as the forgiveness of all sins and the procurement of property were offered to all who joined the killing. Horrible atrocities took place all in the name of God as the crusaders carried out their vicious work. In the closing page of this chapter, we read these inspiring words. The persecutions visited for many centuries upon this God-fearing people were endured by them with a patience and constancy that honored their redeemer. Notwithstanding the crusades against them and the inhumane butchery to which

They were subjected, they continued to send out their missionaries to scatter the precious truth. They were hunted to death, yet their blood watered the seed sown, and it failed not of yielding fruit. Scattered over many lands, they planted the seeds of the Reformation, and it is to be carried forward to the close of time by those who also are willing to suffer all things for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. So again, we see the Waldenzians praised, but only in their day. Never mind the fact that they’re still around. There aren’t these great

Bible students and champions anymore because time has moved on and now the Seventh Day Adventists are here. Even though their theology looks nothing like the Waldenzas, they’re supposedly attached to this chain of faithful believers down through history because of the Seventh Day Sabbath and the perpetuity of God’s law. But when this is actually tested and examined utilizing primary source documentation, their own confessions, it doesn’t pass the test, which means this necessary link in the narrative is broken and the narrative falls apart and the SDA church

Can’t have that. But that does not stop them from uh continuing to pedal this in support of the system. But no, the Waldenzians are my spiritual ancestors. They are still around today and they don’t agree with you talking about them as some sort of extinct people group nor rewriting their own history. John Calvin is not going to be your get out of jail free card on this one. I know you guys love to try and pin everything on that’s Calvinism. That’s John Kelvin. I know you guys have been trained to say that and viscerally respond with that, but no, that’s not the culprit behind the

Waldenzians not being 7th Day Sabotarians. Reality is because they never were. pointing to the claim that somewhere in history they celebrated with some Jews. That does not hold water when you understand Waldenzian theology. And the same is true with their view of the law. This is simply the SDA church doing the standard general appeal to phrases and terms, but then inserting into those terms things that the individual did not mean. What is called word association fallacy. So please, if you’re an Adventist, you need to study actual history. Stop saying that the

Waldenzians were seventh day sabotarians and that you guys are now carrying this torch that was passed to all these various groups to eventually be given to you guys. I’m sorry. It is just not true. But as always, may God richly bless you in the grace and peace won by Jesus Christ and his vicarious death on the cross for sinners. Hallelujah. Holy apostate. Can he say that? Come on, man.