Hebrew Roots vs. SDA: What Are the Differences?

Hey there so from time to time we get questions regarding old Covenant movements that Loosely speaking would fall under the larger umbrella of what’s known as Torah ISM movements like the Hebrew Roots people are often interested in how 7th Adventist theology measures up to these groups which is why I wanted to invite my friend Professor Robert soberg to join us and examine this further RL soberg is an author Theologian and Professor based in Nashville Tennessee who runs the Ministry defending the biblical roots of Christianity he has been pursuing

Theology apologetics and philosophy formally and informally for more than two decades he studied at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and has a master’s degree in theological studies from Williamson College where he is now an Adjunct professor of theology he also studied Biblical Hebrew through the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and is currently a PhD student of Bible Exposition at Liberty University Professor soberg specializes in Ministry and evangelism to the Hebrew Roots movement and other old Covenant Cults which makes him the perfect guest for

This discussion we will explore subjects such as the covenants Sabbath diet tithe and more but before we do that if you like what we’re doing here and you want to partner with us you can support us by joining our members only section where you’ll gain access to our growing library of members only content and help equip us to equip more Christians to reach more Adventists with the true Christ and his gospel simply click the join button down below this video video visit the link in the description box down below or visit our Channel homepage where you’ll find the same button like

You see on screen so thank you to all of our members it’s because of the generous support from them that allows us to fulfill our mission and bring you content like this with that said let’s get into it all right Professor thank you for being here I really enjoyed our last discussion so I wanted to have you on to answering adventism to examine the Hebrew roots movement in light of the SDA movement and look at where there may be some crossovers but also differences to do so we are going to examine five key areas the law diet and food the covenants

Tithing and the Sabbath sound good great yeah I’m looking forward to it all right so to start the law a little bit of a leadup here just because I want to make sure I lay out uh what’s needed both for you and the audience I will preface by saying that we are going to look at a large number of Ellen White quotes because she holds more Authority in Adventist theology than any Professor scholar Theologian Etc they don’t like that I do this doesn’t change the facts if they didn’t claim that she was a divinely inspired source of authority probably wouldn’t even mention

Her but we talked about the SDA view of the law a little bit the last time that we discussed if you recall Adventist theology is Tethered to a pre-earth origin story where the law became the subject of fighting between Satan and Jesus leading to what they call the great controversy so it’s important to note that when they use the term the law they are referring specifically to the Ten Commandments this drives their understanding and why the Ten Commandments play such a pivotal role in their framework but notice what Ellen White writes Christ left his position in

The Heavenly courts talking about the incarn and came to this earth to live the life of human beings this sacrifice he made in order to show that Satan’s charge against God is false that it is possible for man to obey the laws of God’s Kingdom close quote so Jesus incarnated in their system to silence Satan who made the accusation that the Ten Commandments are not fair can’t be kept and needed to be changed that’s the Fountain Head issue in their system as it pertains to the law which is why she would also say stuff like this God will test all even as he tested Adam and Eve

To see whether they will be obedient our loyalty or disloyalty will decide our Destiny since the fall of Adam men in every age have excused themselves for sinning charging god with their sin saying that they could not keep his Commandments this is the insinuation Satan cast at God in heaven but the plea I cannot keep the Commandments need never be presented to God for before him stands the Savior the marks of the crucifixion upon his body a living witness that the law can be kept it’s not that men cannot keep the law but that they will not so in their system

The law points you to Jesus who is standing there with his crucifixion marks which communicates that Satan’s a liar the law can be Jesus did it and so can you with his enabling power what is called the model man theology Jesus is this model that came to show you what you need to do in uh well essentially to inherit eternal life you have to follow in his footsteps identically as the perfect example so when you were pointed to him by the law showing you that you need a savior he then points you back to the law after empowering you to keep it which is why

They also teach this man who has defaced the image of God in his soul by a corrupt life cannot by meere human effort effect a radical change in himself he must accept the provisions of the Gospel he must be reconciled to God through obedience to his law and faith in Jesus Christ his life from then forth must be governed by a new principle through repentance faith and good works he may perfect a righteous character and claim through the merits of Christ the Privileges of the sons of God now there is a lot more that we could look at but by coming to the Adventist Jesus he

Empowers you to keep the law by doing so you side with him in the great controversy you silence Satan’s accusation the law is then fulfilled In You by Christ who imparts his righteous merits to you gradually over time as you’re on the path of perfect lawke keeping and it’s that that ultimately Recon Iles you to God and how you are saved so my first question for you what is the Hebrew Roots view of the law and how does it compare with this idea okay wow that’s uh amazing so first of all thanks for having me on I really enjoyed our last conversation and I’m

Looking forward to getting into some of these uh details so let me lay just a little bit of groundwork for pretty much all the questions I’m going to answer today or all the topics we’re going to cover um and that is that Hebrew Roots is part of what a larger belief system that that I’ve coined the term Torah ISM uh to to to describe it’s not a it’s not an insult it’s actually a description of a theology Torah ISM holds that uh that followers of Christ today are required to keep the entire law of Moses and that not doing so is is sinful and disobedient now that’s the

Kind of the Common Core theology that connects a number of belief systems Hebrew Roots being probably the most famous one but there are others there’s Torah observant Christianity some people are trying to come up with follow this thing called proman ISM uh you know pr- law kind of thing but what I want to explain is that what I’m going to share with you is sort of a a distillation of the larger disperate set of beliefs that you find there’s not a monolithic Hebrew Roots theology every C I don’t know if I want to call it a cult every sect we say

Uh holds to a slightly different theology so they’re and they’re on a range of they’re on a spectrum so You’ got folks who are fairly in alignment with what I’m going to call Mainstream Christianity which means just sort of the core theological tenants of let’s say protestantism um and I’m just going to call it mainstream Christianity so there are some who are fairly close to that there are others who are on the far end who are off into you know uh speculation land and conspiracy theories and the such so let me just set the table so there will Hebrew roots or Torah observant

Christians um who are going to hear some of my responses and say I don’t believe that but here but in general what’s interesting is there’s one there’s one really um distinct commonality between what you’ve just described and what I hear often among uh Torah ists or Torah keeping Christians and that is that Jesus came to point us back to the law um and that’s a very that’s a very common overview or or or or theological position to take and so what they want to do is say that they’ll agree with with Ellen and I think she was right when she said Jesus kept the law

Perfectly we we can kind of all agree with that but then they’ll say that Jesus kept the law and some will even say Jesus is the law he is the Torah there’s this a lot of strange conversations going on um you know around nomenclature and and what you know Jesus is the light and life and all that and so the Torah is the light and life so they’re making all these kind of connections but as a general rule how uh Hebrew Roots views the law is very similar to mainstream Christianity they view it as something given by God to the nation of Israel at sin they view the

Law as More Than Just the Ten Commandments most folks do the all 600 plus mitz vote that we we find in the Torah uh they would consider the law there’s a lot of discussion I hear from a lot of folks who fight me on the idea of why do you call it the law of Moses it’s not Moses’s law uh it’s God’s law and my response of course is well the Bible calls it the law of Moses so that’s what I’m going to call it um and so but there’s a general agreement on that that this is the law that that God gave to Israel uh the difference is though what the Hebrew Roots position is

Hey that law is still binding 100% on on Christians today on followers of Jesus today so they’ll say uh all of those things that can still be kept must still be kept by Christians and really if we want to look at it uh pragmatically it just boils down to a few a handful of things uh the kosher food laws the dietary restrictions is one thing that that everyone will agree on in the Hebrew Roots world uh the keeping of the Torah feasts and part and parcel of that is their rejection of what they call the the Pagan feasts of Christmas and Easter they’ll reject those um often and then

They’ve got the circumcision then you’ve got the the obviously the seventh day Sabbath and that’s going to probably be a big overlap here um since as we talked about last time both the Hebrew Roots movement and SDA come from that saboaria movement they’ve got very similar roots or I think they even come from the same route um but so those four things that I just listed are almost entirely all they’re talking about uh every once in a while you’ll see some some Hebrew Roots folks keeping seat seat you know wearing them their clothes and then a few other

Things but for the most part that’s all that’s all they think that that’s all they practically promote um and so the question becomes how do they why do they believe that the entire law is binding on on Christians today and so and we can we can get into that deeper if you want to but basically what they believe is that kind of what you said about SDA Jesus came to live the law to fulfill the law but they don’t see that as be meaning bringing it to its logical or or and the T theological conclusion they see that as uh uh filling filling it out like fulfilling the law in terms of he

Lived it perfectly and now he’s able to point us back and Inspire us some will say his Spirit inspires us to be able to live the Torah um and the other thing I would add one last thing is that it’s not uncommon in Hebrew root circles to do uh to take this position which I think I think it’s what you’ve labeled covenantal uh gism um but I’ve heard several teachers uh Steve mutri has one who’s talked who who says things like we’re not saved by keeping the law we’re Saved By Faith but we maintain our salvation by the keeping of the law so to me that’s that’s splitting

Hairs and there’s really it’s a distinction without a difference right if you need to keep the laws in order to maintain your salvation then yes salvation comes by the keeping of the law and so there’s a lot of um verbal gymnastics theological gymnastics going on in the Hebrew Roots world that talks about ways that we can actually yes they they’re trying to they’re really trying hard to accept that we’re Saved By Faith but they’re really also trying to right behind it quickly behind it inject this idea that somehow that salvation our righteousness our justification all of

These things they’re trying to really tie it to the law in a way that I don’t think the New Testament allows yeah they don’t understand and the law gospel distinction which was such a Crux core component of the reformation and any person that doesn’t understand that mixes law and gospel which results in a false gospel and you mentioned covenantal nomism that’s exactly it you’re in by faith it’s all grace through faith it wouldn’t be possible if God did not you know do do what God did but then you’re kept by obedience so you’re in by faith but you’re kept by obedience and you are the

Determiner ultimately of uh Salvation God’s done his part but now you have to do some other thing whether it’s you know some adven theologians like to use the phraseology uh you have to meet the conditions that’s not works it’s just you meeting the conditions there’s just conditions that are laid forth and if you don’t meet the conditions well you know you probably didn’t really have a true Faith because typically having a true faith will result in you getting to meeting those conditions but it’s not works it’s just there’s conditions that you have to meet on your end of the the

Stick or the bargain and so this is a tough goad I think that’s a tough distinction for a lot of Christians to make and I I get the the fuzziness around that sometimes you know but like a lot of times what I’ll hear is they’ll say um you know uh they’ll quote I think it’s John 14:15 Jesus says if you love me you’ll keep my Commandments right and and we can agree with that you know as I’ve heard one Pastor say obedience is God’s love language it’s how we show him we love him is by obeying him so the the the thing to get into here when you’re talking about uh meeting the conditions

Or or obedience or however we might want to phrase it is that it’s this kind of fine line that we want to make sure we understand the biblical Nuance that yes good works and obedience are part of our faith walk but the question is what do they have to do with our Salvation I mean you know you think of the popular phrase Ephesians 289 right Faith by faith alone um so that no man May boast that passage but if you go on to read verse 10 in that passage it says we’re saved for good works and so I think that also helps us understand the sequence you’re saved and the good works come out

Of your salvation out of your out of the Spirit-filled life that you’re now living you know because a lot of times what will happen is they’ll conflate and I don’t tell me if this is the same thing in SDA but they’ll conflate obedience with uh they’ll attach obedience to the old Covenant commands so if if if I’m obedient to the Sabbath the seventh day Sabbath or if I’m obedience to my dietary restrictions that’s me showing God I love them that’s kind of how they you know but the question is which commands when Jesus says keep my Commandments what’s he talking about

And so you look at you know you’ve got obviously passages like Colossians 2:16 And1 17 that say don’t let anyone judge you about food or drink or a Sabbath rest or a new Moon Festival or a feast or any of that stuff it clearly says those things were the shadow Christ was the reality and so you can applaud the desire to obey God but but when it so easily slips into Works righteousness and legalism that’s that’s the concern that I have and that I’m a little scared by that phrase you just used which was meeting the conditions that’s that’s kind of crazy I

Mean what you described is essentially now they’re not going to say all the laws of of what we would say like the law of of Moses um they’re only going to boil it down to they they borrowed the three-fold division of the law from the reformed tradition um and so they’re going to say the ceremonial and civil laws done away with but the moral law which is found in the the uh decalogue that is still that’s what your obedience to so it’s not the obedience to the feast days and stuff like the the individuals you’re referring to but it’s going to be your obedience to the Ten

Commandments but really that means the fourth Commandment that’s the because they’re the only ones that are keeping all 10 supposedly and that kind of gets into their Remnant Theology and their special mission that they think they have from God Etc but really it’s it’s what you highlighted there that obedience gets misplaced what is the role of obedience the SDA Church oftentimes through the years has used this argument that well all those other Pagan Sunday Christians out there they’re against obedience we’re are for obedience no that’s not the argument the argument is not well

Everyone else is an antinomian and the rest of us are uh well you know these the avenus we’re uh we we we’re about obedience no it’s what is the role that obedience plays they see it as a uh reconciliation device it’s a maintenance device it is something that maintains Your Righteous standing before God that’s not the role of obedience the role of obedience is not to Main retain or retain something obedience is role is a fruit it’s not a root thing it’s a fruit thing and so that’s where the mixup happens so that’s why on this platform I’m constantly hammering on no

It’s your guys’s unlawful use of the law it’s your unlawful uh misplacing of what obedience is misdefined the role of obedience and that’s partly why they have a false gospel because they’ve mixed law and gospel reconciliation is part of the Gospel not the law the law can’t reconcile the law brings death and trying to tether yourself to that but say well it does bring death if you violate it but and all these groups get into this problem this like avist call it a second probation that’s the terminology they use to say like you’re given a do over at the law well the no

The law doesn’t have any provisions for that you violate it one time do this and you’ll live do that and you’ll die period there’s no doovers because God is just and and this is what Paul gets into in Romans 3 for example and we could kind of Rabbit Trail into all of that but Downstream of this and you’ve mentioned it a couple times diet and food so in adventism they have what’s called their health message Ellen White called the Adventist Health message the right arm of the Gospel in adventism it is an entering wedge they will hold Health Food seminars in cities and

Invite people in the community and they view it as an Outreach event to get somebody to come into adventism they’ll tell you these sorts of stats that their hospitals and their blue zones have done studies and Adventist live 10 years on average 10 years longer than every other person out there we can help clear up your cancer we can help clear up your obesity come we’ll explain this to you and they think they have this special Health message that was given to them from God as a part and means of getting people into the door of the SDA church so this is something that we could spend

A bunch of time discussing but for brevity I will look at or we will look at only a few aspects to connect some dots and then I’m going to have a question for you notice what she says first God gave the light on health reform and those that reject it reject God this is to say the SDA Church’s message on health reform is believed to have come from God despite its clear influence from other health reformers of the 19th century and certain things that modern science has proven to be bunk like vital force Theory but with that in mind notice also the Apostle Paul

Exhorts the church I beseech you therefore Brethren by the mercies of God that ye present your bodies a Living Sacrifice wholly acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service men then can make their bodies Unholy by sinful indulgences if Unholy they are unfitted to be spiritual worshippers and are not worthy of Heaven if man will cherish the light that God in Mercy gives him upon Health reform he may be Sanctified through the truth and fitted for immortality but if he disregards that light and lives in violation of natural law he must pay the penalty so

If you don’t follow the SDA Health message you are in Disobedience to God and are not fitted for immortality you will pay the penalty of being annihilated some things that are included in this message God has written his law upon every nerve and muscle every fiber and function of the human body the Indulgence of unnatural appetite whether for tea coffee tobacco or liquor is in Temperance and is at war with the laws of Life and Health by using these forbidden articles a condition of things is created in the system which the Creator never designed

This Indulgence in any of the members of the Human family is sin the eating of food that that does not make good blood is working against the laws of our physical organism and is a violation of the law of God the cause produces the effect suffering disease and death are the sure penalty of indulgence so tea coffee tobacco and liquor in any capacity whatsoever are sinful and will jeopardize your Eternal Destiny because they’re sinful and work against the law which God also wrote on every fiber of human nature she also writes in this fast age the less exciting the food the

Better condiments are injurious in their nature mustard pepper spices pickles and other things of like character irritate the stomach and make the blood feverish and impure the inflamed condition of the drunkard stomach is often pictured as illustrating the effect of alcoholic Liquors a similarly inflamed condition is produced by use of irritating condiments soon ordinary food does not satisfy the appetite the system feels a want a craving for something more stimulating so condiments such as mustard and spices black pepper and pickles are also apparently injures to

The body and they’re sinful because they contaminate the blood despite the majority of SDA not adhering to this but she also had this to say meat eating deranges the system be clouds the intellect and blunts the moral sensibilities such a diet contaminates the blood and stimulates the lower passions it prevents Vigor of thought and enfeebles the perceptions so that God and the truth are not understood so also any meat eating is sinful because she said meat contaminates the blood and anything that does that she told us violates the law of God not just unclean Meats all Meats

They’ll often try and make exceptions for clean Meats as we’re going to see momentarily but before we get into the clean and unclean Meats discussion do Hebrew Roots adherence teach something similar to this regarding abstinence of tea coffee condiments Etc no I’ve never heard anyone my goodness uh yeah I was now I’ve only seen the quotes you’ve shown and so I don’t understand their complete context but one thing I notice is is a Dar of biblical citations to support these types of claims maybe she offers some I can I can think of nothing in Scripture that would say anything about

Any of those things uh pickles and tea and all that stuff um connecting that to morality is is maybe the one thing I can see as a as a connection point between Hebrew roots and SDA because many Hebrew Roots followers believe we we’ve got a couple series on our YouTube channel about they believe that there is a there is a first of all they accept the old Covenant food lost I mean that’s that’s obvious um and so what some of the things that they’ll say maybe a little bit like Len white but when we’re discussing things like the the list of prohibited animals in Leviticus 11 uh

They’ll they’ll begin to talk about well that’s because I mean this is 95% of of Hebrew roots or Torah observant Christians will adhere to this or uh try this line of argument by saying that it’s all about health God was forbiding prohibiting the animals that would uh that were more prone to bacteria and and were unhealthy for you and these were the bottom feeders and you know the pigs and the shellfish and all this sort of thing um the one the one uh problem with that line of thinking is the same problem I have with almost everything Ellen White

Just said the Bible speaks nothing of these things that the Bible makes no connection between uh the the list of prohibited animals and the and the health of the Israelite Community it’s we’re actually specifically told near the end of that chapter why the why the certain foods were restricted nothing to do with health nothing to do with nutrition it has to do with Holiness with being set apart and I’ve actually got a book out called what God has called clean because this is such a common um argument from them and so in what in that book I kind of go through

Actual arguments from a from a Hebrew Roots teacher and kind of dissecting them because um it’s very easy to get caught up in that because we’re all me included we care about our health we want to eat well that makes sense to us but what we don’t want to do is and what I sense Ellen White’s doing is taking the Bible and using it as a sort of rubber stamp on anything that she deems to be healthy or not healthy uh based on her health Outlook in the late 19th century right what she thought was healthy back then um but so what we what we see with those with those animals why

Those specific animals is really interesting because if you think about it if those animals that God prohibits in Leviticus 11 were prohibited because of health issues or nutrition issues let’s say they uh caused people to get sick more often than not well then what you’d have is all the other nations around Israel the Pagan nations would say oh I get way more sick when I eat pig or when I eat whatever I eat uh so I’m going to stop eating that so you just have basically a list of things that everyone avoids because it makes everyone sick right that’s just the the

Nature of of humanity we want to avoid things that make us sick but what you have with that list I think what what a lot of people Miss is the list in Leviticus 11 which to us to our human sensibilities can kind of seem arbitrary like why did he pick well so we’re given the we’re given the conditions right clove and hoof and and chooses cud and all that but why was that why why was that the basis on which God distinguished between clean and unclean and because we don’t know because to our human Minds it feels sort of um random because of that it makes it to me

Much more powerful as a witness to the nation of Israel if in in ancient near East you come across a tribe of people who wouldn’t eat shellfish wouldn’t eat pork and you go wow well those are guys are kind of weird and set apart which is what the word holy means means they must belong to Yahweh the god of Israel right so this is a very distinguishing marker because there’s a sense of of Randomness so to speak from a human perspective to the list of animals that that God’s that God’s given us um now if you get to the new New Testament I think it’s pretty

Clear and in that book I make a pretty I think pretty strong case why there is no more categories of clean and unclean which to be clear when God talks about clean and unclean he’s not talking about delicious and icky right he’s is talking about ritually pure and ritually unclean um and so that category is gone because we’re no longer followers of Christ members of God’s family are no longer distinguished from the World by what we eat but Jesus says it’s by our love for one another that they’ll that they’ll know that we’re Disciples of his so so I

Believe that whole thing has been set aside under the New Covenant and there’s plenty of scriptures we could look at to talk about that but for most Hebrew Roots folks who want to keep that and by the way way I need to say this too I don’t know what your position is but on all these things that Torah observant Christians want to do seventh day Sabbath and the dietary restrictions and so on my position and I believe this is what the New Testament teaches is that those things are permitted but they’re not required so if someone wants to eat a biblically Clean Diet my response is

Go for it that’s great the problem we run into in the Hebrew Roots Torah ISM communities is that they don’t stop there by making their personal decision to do that it becomes this idea of legislating it for everyone around them and that’s where we get into a big problem and the food laws are a very big deal people will sometimes use the the Health Nutrition angle to kind of push their food laws on other people and you think to yourself well okay I guess I’m okay eating steak instead of instead of pork you know I mean they’re both delicious and they don’t mind doing that

And so they kind of get pulled into this idea oh wow now I feel a little bit Holier I’m I’m kind of keeping the commands and I’m feeling like come uh doing something to obey God and so there becomes this again we talk we’ll probably end up here a lot but it slips into a Works righteousness they start thinking I think I think God’s pretty happy with me now now that I’m eating kosher yeah they end up tethering in a a person’s Eternal Destiny to this and then we’re back in the predicament that we were just talking about previously um I am in that same boat as well a Romans

14 style approach you know I always tell people that are transitioning out of SDA that said they still have a a ience that they don’t know if it’s a legitimate conviction or if it’s just that they’ve had this pounded into their head and they’re having a a unjustified guilty conscience and I always say just obey your conscience if you want to eat only vegetables by all means eat only vegetables God accepts you just like he does the person who’s more mature in the faith because Paul says the person that eats anything is they’re more mature in the faith but we don’t need to use it as

A cudle to beat some person who’s weaker in the faith over the head with God accepts both both parties um you mentioned Ellen White in what scripture she uses um there’s a couple places we could go which would kind of get us off track here but 1 Corinthians 6:19 is they abuse that text for anything do you not know that your body’s the the temple of God which is talking about sexual sin fornication because he says that of all the other sins out there they’re outside of the body but sexual sin is the only sin that is against one’s own body and if you are a part of the larger body of

Christ and the holy spirit is indwelling you how can you attach yourself to a prostitute when scripture tells us that when you become connected at that level you become one flesh so you are sing against your own body you are damaging the body of Christ these sorts of things it’s not talking about uh health food but you mentioned Leviticus 11 which is a perfect transition because regarding clean and unclean meats and Leviticus 11 I want you to notice what anhel Rodriguez from the Adventist Brain Trust the bibl IAL Research Institute says in his paper from 1996 titled Leviticus 11

In response to the question is the law of unclean Animals still valid he gives five reasons why they believe it’s still valid but in part he writes a person became unclean only by eating the Flesh of the animal and no prescribed ritual regulation could remove the uncleanness the Israelites were simply expected to obey the Lord here we can clearly see that the natural uncleanness of the animal is to be distinguished from the ritual one I should add that an animal could become ritually unclean after it died touching the carcass of an animal whether clean or unclean made the person

Unclean and a cleansing ritual had to be performed the law distinguishing between clean and unclean animals is mentioned in the Bible for the first time in the flood narrative before there was an Israelite Genesis 7 2-3 while the unclean animals entered the Ark by twos the clean ones were preserved by sevens this suggests that the clean were to be used as food by Noah and his family without risking the extinction of any particular species so we could look at all of the Ellen White quotes that he is pulling uh most of this from such as no and his

Family supposedly were allowed to eat meat as an emergency because the flood killed all the vegetation so I I guess what were all the herbivorous animals that were taken on supposed to eat they’re just and how did the how did the dove bring back the Olive Branch um if all the vegetation was was completely destroyed but they completely ignore the fact and maybe you talk about this in your book that clean and unclean animals played a role in burnt offerings and sacrifices made to God as well as God’s explicit statement that no and his family could eat anything of their

Choosing they ignore that component and you notice he had to say well it seems to suggest but instead they draw out of this principles from their health message so my question for you what does the Hebrew Roots movement or the adherence of the movement teach regarding clean and unclean meats and maybe you could share some of the arguments from your book about this sure yeah so the first thing I thought of was what you alluded to when you read anel’s uh quote there Genesis 93 right for I give you every move thing that lives shall be food for you God tells Noah uh

And so you’ve got whether or not in chapter 7 on the on boarding of the Ark we uh the the clean and unclean distinction whether you know how we want to interpret that is one thing but then you have After the flood the waters are receding and God says every living thing that moves shall be food for you so there is no restriction on what Noah can eat and to me this is actually a a very strong argument against this concept of clean and unclean relating to issues of morality or health or any of that uh you’ve also got things like Deuteronomy 14:21 where it talks about uh if an

Animal has died naturally in other words it wasn’t ritually slaughtered you can’t eat it Israelites but give it to you give it to the sojer who’s who’s among you or give it sell it to the Foreigner they can eat it I don’t have a problem if they eat it so how could a morally perfect God allow the eating of immoral animals or immoral Foods right even if it’s not his own people and and I think that so I think that the whole concept of attaching morality and nutrition and health to the animals is an entirely it’s an exercise in isog Jesus right it’s reading things into the text that

Just aren’t there and I think it also it also belies a a lack of understanding about the ancient near East and even the Pagan uh cultures that that you know Israel came out of that it was birth out of that culture and in that culture there were clean and unclean there were these These are categories that are not unique to Israel what’s unique is the way that Yahweh uh took them over and and commanded them I mean we could get into that it’s a long discussion the difference between the Israelites of the ancient near East and and their world view their view of reality compared to

The wider Pagan view but you had sacrifices you had clean and unclean you had many of the things that we read about prior to the the the uh the food laws being given to Israel at Mount Si in Exodus or in Leviticus 11 um and so and and and I think Deuteronomy 14 it’s also mentioned as well so what we need to do is understand in that historical context what did those food food laws do for the nation of Israel right so again we go back to this thing I I kind of mentioned about uh most of the Hebrew Roots folks will argue God said don’t eat it so I’m not going to eat it some

Of them go crazy I mean you’ll see guys uh Zack Bow’s one of them um uh anyway don’t worry about the names but they’ll say oh you just want to you Christians just just love your bacon you just love your pork barbecue so you’re not willing to give it up and so they’re they’re framing it as a position of obedience or a question of obedience versus Disobedience and they’ll talk about again the parasites and all that sort of things so this is the entire weight of their argument is based on that and so a simple response that I’ll ask for is is show me anywhere anywhere in scripture

Not even just the Torah where those un unclean ritually unclean animals are in any way tied to nutrition or health or any of that in term parasites any of that explain from scripture your argument and they obviously can’t because scripture doesn’t speak to that um and so the other thing that’s kind of interesting about the clean unclean Foods is that you’ve got things like where where um where Jesus is talking to in Mark 7 right he’s talking to the Pharisees we actually just have a video we recently put out on this a and they come up and say why aren’t your um why

Aren’t your disciples washing their hands like the tradition of the elders right so this is this this a discussion between Jesus and the Pharisees about cleaning washing your hands before you eat which was a church tradition but it’s not a Torah requirement it’s not a requirement of the law and so Jesus goes back and forth and if you recall he makes a big he calls the crowd to him and he says look nothing outside of You by going into you can make you unclean right it’s the things that come out of you that make you unclean and then interestingly as we get into the in my

Study of this Jesus says this broad public comment and then he leaves he leaves the crowd behind he goes into a house with his disciples he never really explains or unpacks what that means and and then in private with his disciples they ask him Ma Matthew’s account tells us it’s Peter that asks what what do you mean by that Parable so obviously they were confused and they said do you realize you offended the Pharisees when you said that and so Jesus unpacks it he says nothing from outside of a person can make them unclean because it goes in goes into your stomach and not your

Heart and it’s expelled right and so he says the things that make you defiled the things that make you unclean are that which come out of you because they come out of your heart and he talks about murder and adultery and greed and all these things that come out of a person’s heart right so Jesus at least in private is is switching or or he he’s elevating the conversation from a simple discussion about handwashing Jesus says I know you asked about that issue but let me take you bigger let’s talk about the heart of humanity let’s talk about the heart of mankind and and sin and

What the problem is right he takes it into this Cosmic level and what he says in the middle of that conversation then the author of The Gospel of Mark injects a comment thus he declared all foods clean and it’s in parenthesis and it’s and if you have a Bible that shows the words of Jesus in r that phrase thus he declared all foods clean is in Black it’s not the words of Jesus it’s the summary of the gospel writer who’s saying all those decades later he’s reflecting on and goes you know what I don’t want anyone to miss this all this stuff about nothing outside of

You that goes inside can defile you Jesus was declaring all foods clean and so there’s this big discussion and you’ll find all kinds of arguments about that text wasn’t in the original manuscript which it was we proved that on uh one of our videos on my channel uh and in the book I go through that as well showing actual um visuals of those early manuscripts and then breaking down the Greek grammar and all this so it becomes this very large battle point for uh for followers of Hebrew roots for Torah observant Christians because they don’t want to ever believe that Jesus

Might have even in private with his disciples declared all foods clean but then of course you’ve got acts 10 and and you’ve got all kinds of other things you’ve got acts 15 the Jerusalem Council decision so there’s all kinds of stuff behind it but one of the problems I have is that they have a sense of if I uh acknowledge that all foods uh there’s no more clean unclean categories then I have to basically Abandon All of Torah ISM because then I have to admit that I don’t that these things aren’t commanded of me and again I’ll say please feel free to eat kosher I don’t mind I

Remember a couple years ago I went out to a Messianic Jewish conference uh in Pennsylvania and and it was at a Jewish University uh and they only served kosher food all week long and it was delicious and I didn’t miss a thing so it’s it’s not a huge ask for someone to eat kosher uh and so there’s not a there’s not a Disobedience behind my uh decision to be okay eating ham and pork and and shrimp and whatever else it might be it it doesn’t have to do with my pallet overriding my ability to obey God it has to do with what does actually God expect of us and if you’re focusing

On those sorts of things Jesus is saying in Mark 7 if you’re focusing on the the washing of your hands and these sort of man-made physical outward things you’re going to miss the important part which is the internal it’s your heart that matters and I think that’s one of the dangers of the Hebrew Roots movement is it puts so much focus on what you call what you call it meeting the conditions rather than putting your focus on Jesus and Jesus says let me just say this I think uh John 5:39 I’m I’m I think that’s right he says to the Pharisees and I think he’s saying in my mind he’s

Saying it to the Hebrew roots and maybe even SDA I don’t know but he says you search the scriptures and Jesus when he says scriptures he’s talking about the Old Testament right you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have life but you refuse to come to me who is the source of life and so to me this is Jesus saying no no no I didn’t show up to point you back in fact Jesus says about both Abraham and Moses that they saw his day and they were glad right so things in the Old Testament point us forward to Jesus not the other way around and when we start getting

Wrapped around the wheel on things like what what it’s okay to eat and not okay to eat I think that’s when we start missing the boat yeah Mark 7 is a staple around here we talk about that a lot people that have been people that have been riding with this platform for a while will know that we have gone through Mark 7 the entire paropy I don’t know how many times exactly what you just said they use all the same SD use all the same defenses to that that you did that oh that’s a scribal Edition oh that’s it doesn’t change the point though it that’s the problem it doesn’t

Change the point because all that that scribal Edition is doing is clarifying the context the context doesn’t change whether or not that scribal Edition is there or not because as you pointed out Adventist like to say no he’s only talking about he was against the corbon rule the tradition of the elders about germs can’t defile you no no he says anything that goes into the stomach that includes food it’s not justs it’s a universal statement in the Greek y yeah it’s an imperative and so it’s like well yeah it’s like well no it’s he goes on to clarify when he explains like you

Said to the disciples that it’s not anything that goes into you food germs dirt whatever the problem is what comes out of the heart that’s the core issue and like you said if you start getting too bogged down in these things and a lot of sdas do man I mean we talked about this a little bit on your platform that adventism has so many tentacles that it can get people with and this is one of them there’s people that are real you know bent on healthful living and there’s something Noble about that um I’m not dogging on on healthy living like I don’t eat fast food Etc like I

Don’t drink soda um I care about trying to be healthy Etc um but there’s a level of going Beyond and then you start tethering on exactly like you said that well it’s just you just don’t want to be obedient it’s just because you like bacon and you’re not willing to give up bacon for Jesus well no no no now you’re trying to guilt somebody um erently that’s not justified it’s the whole premise is faulty it’s not disobedient so that’s a constant thing we’re doing on this platform as well we will talk about the uh Sabbath here momentarily I want to transition now into the

Covenants SDA covenant theology is quite a mess and the average SDA does not understand it but here is a chart from an Adventist Pastor I did not make this this is what an Adventist pastor Pastor was teaching from trying to depict for the leoty what they believe so it is a borrowing of classical covenant theology that is filtered through their extra biblical Great controversy Paradigm while there is a distinction within the periods of time as you’ll see sin and death and ignorance old Covenant New Covenant judgment you fundamentally have no distinction because the

Overarching Covenant of life their Everlasting gospel binds it all together you will recall when we talked when I was on your platform what all this Everlasting gospel entails in their system and it is their entire system of belief but this is why I call their system monoc covenantal despite numerous Adventists that take umbrage with that I use that term because their view eliminates the law gospel distinction it mixes law and gospel resulting in a false gospel so like you mentioned earlier the formal term for their view would be what’s called covenantal nomism You’re

Initially in by grace through faith that’s the good news but then you’re kept by your obedience you’re empowered now to be able to do something you couldn’t do previously and the New Covenant is really a doover of the old Covenant but now Jesus has come to give you a second probation like Adam and Eve were on and he can now Empower you to do what those before could not so my question for you what is the Hebrew Roots teaching regarding the Old and New Covenant okay so there is not a clear uh I couldn’t make a chart like you just showed for Hebrew Roots because there’s

A variance in in what’s believed I would say in my opinion for the most part most of the those I’ve interacted with over the last five years have adopted a generally mainstream understanding of the old and new covenants um and I would say I don’t know 75% of them would agree with that that there was an old Covenant there’s a New Covenant they don’t get into all kinds of extracurricular covenants uh as we just saw in that chart um eschatology setting that aside for a moment um so you’re looking at basically the old and new covenants now within that we do have a number of

Hebrew Roots folks who have argued that the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31 was actually a renewed covenant not new it was just renewing the Sinai Covenant and again we’ve got a video on that that goes into some detail we go through an and analyze actually there were a number of renewals of the Sinai Covenant in scripture and even in the Torah in Joshua and so we go through what does a renewal of a covenant look like versus what does a New Covenant look like and the primary distinction just to sum it up for this for your audience is the primary distinction is

That a covenant in the Bible is cut meaning there’s Bloodshed to validate and inaugurate the Covenant and so when you’ve got the the Covenant with Abraham you know it’s Genesis 15 and their cutting the animals and and God graciously puts Abraham to sleep and makes it a unilateral Covenant right and he passes through the blood of the animals himself um you got the Sinai Covenant which of course comes with all kinds of of blood sacrifices uh and then the New Covenant of course which Jesus says at the Last Supper Luke 22:20 this is the New Covenant in my blood he says

So the the big one of the biggest arguments is that no it’s just renewed and of course the reason they want it to just be renewed is because they want to say it’s the same law going back to the first discussion we had they want to say the same exact law God gave the Israelites at sin is the same law we need to obey today and so what they’ll argue from there is that when God says to through Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31 that I will I will write my law in their hearts and put it in their minds put my law within them that this is and it does use the word Torah there that this is

Yahweh’s Torah that has been written on our hearts meaning to them it means so therefore we have to eat the DI AR you keep the Gary restrictions and we have to keep the the seventh day Sabbath and you know and I guess I’ll pause there because we’re going to get into that one in a second but yeah so they’ll oftentimes try to make a little bit of a twisting there with the old and the new covenants the one other thing I would say that I’ve heard that’s sort of a strange position is there are some who try to argue that the New Covenant hasn’t begun yet that it won’t begin

Until the second coming of Christ which I I find very little scriptural support for that concept Jesus very much talks about uh you know Paul anyway yeah L lots of stuff Hebrews says Jesus was the minister of a New Covenant Paul says we’re we’re we’ve been you know we’re Ministers of the New Covenant Jesus says it was in his blood so there’s really no reason to think that the New Covenant is coming in theam habah the age to come though a lot of folks will argue and what’s really interesting is on this topic and and several others some of the arguments that I’ll hear from Hebrew

Roots folks who claim faith in Jesus and claim to be uh to claim to be followers of him they they accept the New Testament as scripture they’re actually using arguments from Judaism so Judaism rejects Jesus as the Messiah or even as Divine and it rejects the New Testament as any sort of inspired scripture and the arguments I hear because I do debate oftentimes with with Jewish folks as well the arguments I hear against some of these things like the New Covenant hasn’t happened yet Hebrew Roots folks are picking that up from our our Jewish friends who don’t

Even believe in Jesus that I find that a little bit ironic yeah it sounds like there is a lot of similarities in the general and then the thing that makes the sdas unique in a lot of these capacities is the fact that they distill all of their beliefs through the great controversy theme the world viiew which gives it it gives it its unique component but in the general there’s like a ton of cross over here they’re not going to say the I mean some individual SDA out there somewhere may but the SDA Church officially is going to say that the New Covenant is here

Kind of like you saw in that chart but there’s really a blending together of all well Old and New Covenant such that it’s essentially mono covenantalism um and so that’s why I I use the term because I’m not saying that they don’t try and distinguish between old Covenant New Covenant it’s that practically when you look at the practicality of how that works itself out the New Covenant is really a doover of the old Covenant with the good news being now through Jesus you can be empowered to do what they couldn’t previously do before you can meet the conditions the good news is

Jesus came and now you can meet the conditions and that’s not the gospel that’s not the gospel the gospel is the good news that that in the person and work of Christ all of that has been fulfilled it pointed to the person and work of Jesus Christ and I would actually argue technically that especially with Hebrew Roots people who tend to say all of the law they say none of it’s been aggregated I say I agree it’s all upheld but it’s in the person of Christ and by being in Christ I am fulfilling all of that it’s by virtue of being in the person of of Christ um I

Don’t even argue with the sdas for example these sorts of like well you believe the law was was done away I just go a step further and say well no actually I don’t I technically believe it’s all upheld I think it’s all been fulfilled and I think that by being in Christ it is as though um because that’s what that was ultimately about you’re in a shadow you’re taking a shadow and making the Shadow the substance when when that’s not really what was was going on there now something that’s going to be very interesting that I haven’t done a ton of content on so

We’re going to kind of break the ice here on this we have some articles on our website that people can check out but we don’t have any uh Major Video content on this yet um that will be changing though and that’s the topic of tithe tithing is a very dogmatic teaching in adventism they call it systematic benevolence that’s the term that they use Ellen White gave very specific and detailed Divine analysis when it comes to tithe such as what it is and isn’t to be used for extending far beyond being used to compensate the levitical priests for their service like

Scripture says it was used for but notice for example this is from Christ object lessons this quote is specifically on Luke 11 1-13 she writes as The Giver of Every Blessing God claims a certain portion of all we possess this is his provision to sustain the preaching of the gospel and by making this return to God we are to show our appreciation of his gifts but if we withhold from him that which is his own how can we claim his Blessing if we are Unfaithful stewards of Earthly things how can we expect him to entrust us with the things of Heaven it may be

That here is the secret of unanswered prayer so it’s not just giving it’s that if you don’t tithe you can’t expect to be entrusted with Heavenly things you won’t be blessed by God and it could be why your prayers aren’t being answered but she also wrote some if they should regain their health would indulge in some needless transgressions of nature’s laws we should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble in the church she also wrote stuff such as this the plan of systematic benevolence was of God’s Own Arrangement but the faithful payment of

God’s claims is often refused or postponed as though solemn promises were of no significance it is because church members neglect to pay their tithes and meet their pledges that our institutions are not free from embarrassment if all both rich and poor would bring their tithes into the storehouse there would be a sufficient supply of means to release the cause from Financial embarrassment and to nobly carry forward the missionary work in its various departments God calls upon those who believe the truth to render to him the things that are his those who have

Thought that to withhold from God Is Gain will eventually experience his curse as the result of their robbery of the Lord nothing but utter inability to pay can excuse one in neglecting to meet promptly his obligation to the Lord indifference in this matter shows that you are in blindness and deception and are Unworthy of the Christian name so it’s not just uh God loves a cheerful Giver of course we would agree that God loves a cheerful Giver giving is a part of the Christian Life Ms giving if you want to use a more classic term Etc but that’s not all that’s going on

Here and that was only a well not even a scratching of surface she wrote a scathing rebuke here to SDA that’s what that was that we were reading there was a scathing rebuke to sdas because church members weren’t paying tithe that the SDA movement was an embarrassment because of the work wasn’t able to go forward like it needed to in the world because well you’re not giv your tithes like you should and God’s curse is going to come on you for doing such um they didn’t have sufficient funds to to to carry forth the mission work that sort of thing and by doing so again you risk

Being cursed by God something that I could show you numerous quotes on that’s not just a oneof I mean she saying this over and over and that if you don’t give tithe you’re not even worthy of calling yourself a Christian now like I said this is not even a scratching of the surface folks can visit answering adventism tocom and just type in the word tithe in the search bar up top you’ll see an article you can click on that all of the claims are hyperlink I mean there’s like 20 different claims that she made in there that you you won’t receive God’s blessing you’re not

Worthy of being a Christian The Curse Of God will be on you all that stuff is in there hyperlink and you can study to your heart’s desire but Robert my question for you what do Hebrew Roots adherents believe about tithe holy legalism Batman that’s all I can think of when I when you were reading that thing from Ellen White uh so here here we see a pretty difference as far as my experience again again Hebrew Roots is not monolithic but I’ve really seen no arguments one way or the other I’ve had questions are we required to tithe because of course tithing is is a

Requirement in the Old Testament but it’s not actually mentioned in the New Testament um and so it comes up as questions but I haven’t seen anyone take any strong theological positions on tithing um but I would offer some some feedback on what Ellen has said which is namely that she’s uh wow it’s just so physical it has to do with the this the tiniest little things and even calling benevolence trying to systematize benevolence to me just rips the heart out of kindness and giving right Jesus says all over the place he’s he’s railing against greed and certainly we

Have to acknowledge that when we do tithe when we give to our church when we give to uh Christian Ministries these are things that are sewing seeds in the Kingdom things that please God he wants a cheerful Giver not a systematic Giver right but but I was look looking up the passage it’s uh 2 Corinthians 9:7 each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give not reluctantly or under compulsion for God loves a cheerful Giver so what what I think uh this this framework that she calls systematic benevolence is sort of compulsive benevolence which which robs

It of its heart which is what Jesus talked so often about having these beautiful you know whitewashed Graves with dead bones inside that kind of a thing so I I think they’re missing the heart and my opinion is that so for those of you who aren’t aware most folks are the tithe literally means 10 per. and so I believe Jesus calls us to be even more generous he values generosity right and we and it certainly is an AC of worship of God to to give into the the things of God Paul talks a lot about supporting the teachers of the word that’s one example of how we might do

That but to try to wrap it up in a legalistic terms uh is a little bit scary to me but again I’ve not heard any Hebrew Roots folks take a a staunch maybe they’re cheap skates just kidding my Hebrew Roots friends uh but I’ve not heard any any uh Torah keeping uh arguments or or doctrines about tithing in effect yeah it’s a uh guilty to it’s a guilt tool in adventism and we could spend I could tell you story after story after Story of just the the role that tithe plays in adventism and it’s the necessity to keep the big machine going and so you know if a church potentially

Loses a big tither that’s always like a huge thing like oh no because there’s just so much built around that and it’s it’s crazy actually how much fear is also a part of like if I’m not giving enough to the SDA organization um my my eternal Destiny could be in jeopardy it’s these types of things and it’s just one more thing added on top of now the food guilt and are you keeping the law good enough and they’re G to try and tell you that that’s not the case but SDA out there they know what I’m talking about they know that I’m not just talking out the side of my neck sure and

Here and that’s what makes it so Insidious because some of the things she says I’m like amen that’s right if believer gave more if we were more generous as a as a body of Christ yes we would see fruit of that uh but that’s but you’re right to take that guilt approach is very ospel is is that that’s not even a word um un Christlike I would say I I think I think um and certainly we need to support that and I’m I’m in I’m in favor of generous giving not just necessarily of money although that’s certainly important but all resources time your creative skills all of that

Kind of stuff um volunteerism all that helps and I do believe we need a more generous spirit in the church so so to read her comments you go yeah that’s great but then the very next thing she says you’re like what so this it makes it a little bit Insidious on all these topics we’ve talked about so far that’s how it always is and I always have to highlight that because the sdas will tend to point it so you think giving is wrong that’s not what we’re taking umbrage with that’s not the issue it’s always that there’s eror poisonous error is mixed in with a lot of Truth The

Devil’s always worked that way deceptions typically never 100% just error or pretty much everyone would Spot It so it’s not taking overage with that it’s it’s the means and and the the way that it’s being gone about and the ends that it’s supposedly um you know if you don’t do this your Eternal Soul might be in Jeopardy you cited second Corinthians that’s exactly what we cite in that article for those that want to go and check all that out last but not least the Sabbath so this is the golden calf doctrine of the SDA church we will again by no means be able to cover it

Exhaustively but here is a sampling of what they teach we talked about it a little bit on your platform but we’re going to cover a couple of different angles this time in SDA theology the Sabbath is the Seal of the law of God it is supposed to be as well the identifying Mark of the true worshippers of God and false worshippers it’s the only command out of all the 10 that has time and a title associated with it they love to use this analogy of well it’s like the presidential seal and the law is the like the presidential seal of God’s law it’s it

Has an identifying name and the title by and the authority by which you know the it gives you the authority by which the law came the lawgivers name none of the other commands tell you that so you wouldn’t know who it came from they do this sort of like anachronistic reading of modernity back into ancient NE Eastern um literature but that’s to say that on the flip side of this Sunday is said to be Satan’s Sabbath yes Satan’s Sabbath notice what Ellen White says this is from a vision that Ellen White claims to have had from God showing her that Satan and the Fallen

Angels held a council meeting in outer space to conspire how to attack the seventh day Sabbath and Seventh Day Adventist this is Satan speaking supposedly but our principal concern is to silence the sect of Sabbath Keepers that’s the SDA we must excite popular indignation against them we will enlist great men and worldly wise men Upon Our side and induce those in authority to carry out our purposes then the Sabbath which I have set up shall be enforced by laws the most severe and exacting those who disregard them shall be driven out from the cities and Villages and made to

Suffer hunger and privation when once we have the power we will show that we can do with those who will not swerve from their allegiance to God we led the romish church to inflict imprisonment torture and death upon those who refuse to yield to her decrees and now that we are bringing the Protestant churches and the world into harmony with the right arm of our strength we will finally have a law to exterminate all who will not submit to our Authority When Death Shall be made the penalty of violating our Sabbath then many who are now ranked with commandment Keepers aka the SDA

Will come over to our side so Sunday is apparently ultimately a product of Satan it is his Sabbath that he implemented by influencing the Roman Catholic Church to Institute this is because she also taught and claimed that the pope changed the Sabbath notice God has given men the Sabbath as a sign between him and them as a test of their loyalty those who after the light regarding God’s law comes to them continue to disobey and exalt human laws Above the Law of God in the great crisis before us will receive the mark of the beast this same thing is

Found in the SDA Bible commentary which is citing Ellen White true observance of the Sabbath is the sign of loyalty to God so they teach that the Sabbath is a test of loyalty after you hear their present of the Sabbath you’re now liable to accept it or eventually you’re going to receive the mark of the beast which is once a national Sunday law that they think is coming arrives it will mandate that everyone must worship on Satan’s Sabbath that will then become the mark of the beast she also wrote it means Eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord God says them that

Honor me I will honor 1 Samuel 2:30 Again Medical Ministry page 123 quote the soul who keeps the Sabbath is stamped with the sign of God’s government and he must not dishonor the sign by closely examining the word of God we may know whether we have the king’s Mark whether we have been chosen and set apart to honor God God will never never allow any man to pass through the Pearly Gates of the city of God who does not bear the signant of the faithful his government Mark now again we could go extreme deep on this as this is only a small fraction of the

Statements but as you can see this is a keystone pillar within their movement it’s a part of the name of the organization seventh day that’s what it’s speaking to Keystone pillar within the movement with many people whether consciously or subconsciously viewing their going to church on Saturday and their affiliation with the SDA movement as a security net for their salvation you will find many sdas that are going to say oh I disagree with Ellen White I reject the investigative judgment and various other SDA teachings but then you’ll find they are kept in the

Movement because of the grip of the sth day Sabbath and their identity as a Seventh Day Adventist even though the seventh day Sabbath does not prove adventism which leads to my question what does the Hebrew Roots movement or the adherence in the movement teach and believe about the Sabbath and how similar is it wow okay very very similar and I’ll use a phrase that I’ve used before but then I’ll qualify it in the Hebrew Roots movement in Tor keeping Christianity Sabbath keeping is the gateway drug that gets you in now I say that and I realize it’s a little bit you

Know perhaps offensive to some let me quickly qualify that I acknowledge the Sabbath is God’s idea and it’s a beautiful thing and it’s an important thing and the whole concept of rest and Shabbat is very important and I don’t want to belittle that but when I say it’s a gateway drug what I mean is exactly what you’ve described in SDA this is maybe because they come from the common historical root of sabbatarianism where the Sabbath is the thing that most clearly resonates with a Christian as opposed to a a Hebrew Roots person in the church and and what’s interesting

About Hebrew Roots is they evangelize they don’t go out and evangelize the world they evangelize people who already believe in Jesus this is where most of their effort is is maintained they’ll go into a church or talk to a regular Christian and start talking about the Sabbath the regular Christian will be confused they’ll look at scripture they’ll say well yeah okay that’s interesting yeah that it’s one of the Ten Commandments and it it’s never been repealed and you know they’ll start even even a cursory look will get them to start thinking oh maybe I should be

Keeping it um and so the Sabbath is a core tenant of of Hebrew roots for sure um they’ll keep it you know for different reasons some I would say it’s a small percentage will admit that the reason they keep the seventh day Sabbath let’s be clear about that the seventh day Sabbath is because they feel like they feel closer to God they want that rhythm in their lives that spiritual Rhythm and again I say that’s beautiful I love that uh unless you’re going to try to keep the death penalty part of the Mosaic Sabbath which I highly would um recommend against and

That’s actually I say that joking but that’s actually one of the um very good apologetic against this concept of having to keep the seventh day Sabbath which is do you think it’s completely binding yes okay is that include the death penalty and then they start scrambling and talking about things like well we’re not in Theocratic Israel anymore and then you say well are are the laws of God tied to Theocratic Israel aren’t they overarching and Universal anyway you get the idea but here’s the thing I kind of want to point out here is that in my mind the nuanced

Proper biblical grownup uh mature version of Sabbath is that Sabbath keeping was a gift of Rest by God and we and I actually have an article on my website uh my blog RL sober.com just went up a couple days ago called Jesus as our Sabbath rest got an accompanying video on the YouTube channel but it really goes through the understanding and it can we kind of start with Hebrews 4 verses 9 and 10 where it talks about so a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God right and so what does that mean a Sabbath rest and is Jesus our Sabbath and if so in what sense

And so what I would encourage is that I don’t want us to swing to the other you know swing the pendulum too far to the other direction and just throw out the whole concept of Sabbath I think I strongly believe that the principles behind the Sabbath are still very much in effect today a day you know setting aside a time of rest to honor God to worship him to to acknowledge that he is the source of all of our provision in life right and even to to help others you know the Sabbath included not just the family not just the immediate family it included all your hired help even

Included your animals right so the idea of us serving other people acknowledging God taking a moment to rest especially in this crazy digital era of busyness that we’re in right now I think the sa the a Sabbath rest uh is a wise spiritual discipline now I don’t believe it has to be lived out in the context of the seventh day as was required uh of the Israelites at all um but a lot of times this becomes the Battleground I’ve been in a few debates about the Sabbath and so it requires here’s the problem it requires a lot of in my opinion a lot of nuance to get at what the Bible says

About the Sabbath and what its role is in the proper role is in the life of a of a Christian of a follower of Jesus um and so a couple things I noted while you were talking um if Ellen White is right then Jesus was raised on Satan’s Sabbath day he was raised from the grave and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost in Acts 2 to fall on the church on Satan’s Sabbath day it’s just ludicrous to think that that that would be some day somehow dedicated to Satan Ro Psalm 241 right the Earth is the Lord’s and everything in it and Romans 14 you know some consider One Day More

Sacred than other others consider them all the same right every day is a day for the Lord so this Satan Sabbath stuff is frankly it’s silly that would that’s the word I would use but here’s the other thing I would say with the heaviness and the weightiness that SDA puts on the Sabbath that the Hebrew Roots movement puts the exact same weight on it right that they don’t put the same weight in terms of its salvific content or or uh they are a little more subtle about that but what’s shocking to me then is if that’s true if that’s really what God says that this is

The day that you only day you can worship me and you have to do all these things even after Jesus came and gave us the New Covenant then the question I would ask is why does Jesus never command anyone to keep the Sabbath how is that how how did he not accentuate it to the same Waitin that Ellen White did right and so the typical response to that would be well he already everybody already knew you had to keep the Sabbath so he didn’t need to repeat it well then why did he repeat the other nine right why did he repeat all the other Commandments but not that

One and why why is every time he’s talking about the Sabbath a clash with the Pharisees and I think it’s because they’re missing the spirit and intent of the Sabbath and and I go through this this this biblical Theology of rest starting in I’m not going to go through it all right now but just starting in the garden right this idea of resting in peace and Shalom with God that was the original rest and then of course the rest of the Bible from the fall all the way to Revelation is God redeeming and reclaiming Creation in mankind right redeeming us to himself so that in the

End we see Revelation 21 we see that we’ll that God will rest and dwell with us in peace the same way that he did in the Garden of Eden so he’s restoring his edenic vision and along the way this is the reader digest version um check out the article for the for the full deal but along the way the weekly Sabbath was a taste of that it was a foretaste it was God telling the Israelites I’ve got you you you you have you can scramble and work for six days a week but but ultimately I’ve got you covered and here’s a little taste of this rest that I’m going to one day give

You and then of course what happens when Jesus arrives he says in Matthew 11 uh come to me and I will give you rest and so I do believe that Jesus is our Sabbath rest but not in terms of a day of the week the whole concept’s changed but um yeah so this is this is an area which maybe you can tell I’ve had quite a bit of uh argumentation on with Hebrew Roots folks and that’s good because it’s really led me to dig down and understand what the Bible says and really kind of grapple with this concept and I think it’s a little bit sad uh a little bit heartbreaking how the true Spirit of the

Sabbath rest is lost because of all the legalistic fighting that goes on about it yeah there is so much devil speak that goes on in this subject probably in the the context as well of a lot of the individuals you’re dealing with but in the SDA context there there’s just I’m hearing all their responses to things that you’re saying here about um you know a day over and against a spiritual component or a principle and it’s like on one hand they want to try and say you know that Ellen White extended this out to where the angels are keeping the Sabbath in heaven and there was this

Long before the Earth was created like you saw in that covenant theology chart there’s this big expanse of time before you know where all this stuff was happening with the angels in heaven well during this time they’re keeping the Sabbath they’re not supposed to commit adultery even though Angels aren’t given in marriage um but all the Ten Commandments are applying to the angels and they’re keeping the Commandments and um the Sabbath was being kept there but then at the same time well days were created with the Earth and um you know so apparently the angels are keeping the

Same weekly cycle that human beings are and then they’ll say well no it’s it’s about the principle okay well then it’s not about the day so why do you have a problem with us recognizing that it’s ultimately not about a day it’s just it’s double speak it’s constant like trying to hold essentially cognitive dissonance you know trying to hold two contradictory beliefs that honestly just don’t work together and like you pointed out the the purpose of the day even in the old Covenant now you might be shocked to hear this I’m a first day sabari um I’m reformed I’m I’m

Presbyterian but that doesn’t mean the same thing that seventh day sabari mean just on a different day it really is just piggybacking on exactly what you just said the day is a memorial it points to something that’s not the substance the substance has always been Jesus I would just argue that the day has changed there there is biblical PR for the first day in the New Testament I don’t concede that to these seventh day sabbatarian groups that like oh well they are right no I I don’t concede that to you I have a Biblical case for what the church is doing universally and

We’re not in paganism we’re not in you know all these excuses that they use of like well you’ve been duped by Satan from this council meeting in he no God has blessed the first day for for for it being Satan’s day if you just study historically which I’m sure you’ve done God sure has blessed his people um for universally observing Satan’s Sabbath being in this Universal Disobedience that the SDA Church oftentimes tries to ascribe to ignorance well it’s just because they’re ignorant they just don’t understand this you know special truth that we have Etc so maybe we’ll have you

Uh come back on sometime and we can do a much deeper dive and analysis on the subject of the Sabbath and some of these uh issues between both parties but really just more generally speaking um you know some of some of the issues surrounding that that are just kind of General regarding seventh day sabari but brother thank you so much for your time let people know where they can find out more about your ministry man I love talking to you I’d come on anytime this is great I’ve learned so much when we get together uh yeah so we our apologetic Ministry is called defending

The biblical roots of Christianity you can find us at the biblical roots.org um or at the biblical Roots uh which is our YouTube handle um I have the book called Torah ISM that I’ve written that’s really sort of a manual for for folks um and it kind of covers biblical literacy biblical theology as well but it really every chapter goes through some of these things that you’ve brought up from the perspective of Torah keeping Christians and what they get right what they get wrong how we can respond that sort of thing um and so that’s really the focus

Of the biblical Roots is we really want to tie people to what the Bible says and show them the truth where we’re all about defending the the free Freedom the spiritual Freedom that Christ gave gave us and as best as we can within an apologetics Ministry what we’re trying to do is is fight for Unity within the church which is kind of weird when you’re talking about apologetics but we’re doing what Paul and the other Apostles did we’re trying to call false teachers to the carpet and show them where they’re wrong and especially create resources and materials for those

Who are fighting with uh SDA or tourism or anyone else in their life loved ones family members the neighbor across the street who’s getting weird we want to supply people with Biblical resources for that so check out that that website my personal website my blog is RLS Solberg decom and you can find a bunch of articles there as well so Miles thanks man you are a blessing to the kingdom I appreciate you having me on again brother yes anytime thank you so much um and folks thank you as well for being here may uh Christ richly bless you in the grace and peace won by him uh

In his Vicar’s death on the cross for Sinners apostate say that come on man